Beef Safety and Reason.....can they co-exist on this site?

[mrj]

I only wish it could! NOTHING is gained by accusations and blame against the packers and others involvd, especially those with little basis in fact.

Equally useless is the political posturing and attempts use this tragedy for political gain rather than working cooperatively with industry to solve the problem.

Perfection rarely exists. Reason serves very well while we strive for perfection in food processing, IMO.

Reading various articles on the subject of beef safety recently, it is obvious efforts in the past have been successful in lowering e Coli incidences according to story in BEEF magazine, Dec. 2007 issue such incidences actually dropped 72% from year 2000 till the Topps outbreak.

Topps' problem, by the way, happened because that company failed to follow their own HACCP, carrying over one day's supply of raw material to the next, mixing batches, with no clean break between lots.

A factor in problems may be the fact that newer tests able to detect lower incidences of e coli had not yet been implemented by FSIS....but a more sensitive test able to detect lower levels of e Coli 0157:H7 is being used beginning this month.

Huge sums of money have been spent by various segments of the cattle/beef industry developing means to eliminate the problem of e coli. Research is ongoing, with several promising protocols coming on the market soon.

We need to remember that e coli is PREVALENT in nature, comes from many sources, transfers from animal to animal very easily, and the 'bug' changes when attacked, making it difficult to eliminate.

Those who say we only need to force the packers to slow their lines are short-sighted, AT BEST. Regarding food safety, Jay Truitt says it best, I believe, "In America, just being safe is not e4nough, We want to be perfect."

There currently are literally dozens of foods which are irradiated for food safety and preservation. Those who attempt to paint that as an evil process want to eliminate the one certain means of marketing SAFE beef. Many consumers want choices, including irradiated beef. Every irradiated food product must be so labelled or marked.

Articles in Dec. and Jan. issues of Beef Magazine quoting various people, (www.beefmagazine.com), and one by Kindra Gordon in The Cattle Business Weekly (www.cattlebusinessweekly.com) have some thought provoking and interesting FACTS about this problem.

mrj

 

[RobertMac]

Articles in Dec. and Jan. issues of Beef Magazine quoting various people, (www.beefmagazine.com), and one by Kindra Gordon in The Cattle Business Weekly (www.cattlebusinessweekly.com) have some thought provoking and interesting FACTS about this problem.

Your "favorite authors"????

I wonder if the advertisers in those magazines have any influence on what is written????

 

[Tex]

MRJ, you could probably irradiate dog poop and then eat it. I still wouldn't trust the guys who sold that dog poop as food.

You can tell those who have been close to death over ecoli that it is not worthwhile to be "perfect". I guess we will have to call packers beef slaughtering "practioners", not competent beef processors.

 

[Sandhusker]

MRJ, do you have any idea where e-coli contamination of beef first occurs?

 

[mrj]

Robert Mac, though you may not YET have read anything by her, Kindra Gordon is a well educated, ranch born free lance writer living in western SD with her husband and four very busy little kids.

The Cattle Business Weekly, a relatively new ag paper, is published in Philip, SD, and, among others, their big advertisers are cattle auction markets supporting R-CALF verbally on radio 'market reports' and from the auction block as well as by bringing in thousands of $$$ in donations each month.

Beef Mazazine is well respected among cattle producers across the nation. There are ads for dozens of advertisers including seedstock producers, waterers, corral designs, trucks vaccines, ear tags, and more! So what????

Oh, darn! They don't carry articles promoting conspiracies against cattle producers, or blaming all problems on packers.......so they must be against us, arent they?

It doesn't matter the source of information I form my opinios from, it is the message some of you resent and refuse to believe, because it is not accusing and blaming packers alone for e coli problems.

Some of you don't like impervious packaging, and irradiation, two very important ways of assuring beef gets to the consumer in the best possible condition. You demand only hand cut, slowly processed products.

I question whether enough beef can be produced in that manner to even provide enough food for the people in this nation, let alone a large part of the world.........at prices the people can afford.

Some of you discount the enormous amount of money spent BY THE INDUSTRY to safeguard beef being processed. You claim the fault is intentional short-cuts and faulty inspections or no regard for safe procedures for corporate montary gains.

Businesses do not stay in business by making habits of cheating customers, most especially when such cheating results in traceable illnesses and deaths! Throw away your conspiracy shaped doom and gloom glasses and see the opportunities in the beef industry, folks!

Get together, guys. Set up your own "Pristine Beef Company" packing plants and take your cattle from your ranch to the consumer plate, with that "Slow and Perfect Beef" label. Get rich quickly and honestly!

Sandhusker, do YOU have any idea of what has been done to PREVENT that e coli coming out of the guts of your cattle, from contaminating packing plants? Of how much effort HAS been made, and of how that tough little bug keeps changing and moving to new places and contaminating more meat?

You do realize, don't you, that while e coli is in many places on a ranch, from water tanks to the vegetation your cattle eat, and it can be transmitted from one bovine to another via saliva and manure? E coli CAN be spread in the packing plant if the gut is accidentally compromised; OR if fecal material ON THE HIDE escapes from that hide and gets into heating and AC systems, THEN it is carried on to or into meat, even in another room; OR e coli CAN be spread to the meat FROM EMPLOYEES who carry it in THEIR GUT and fail to use proper handwashing practices.

It really is not so simple as some of you insist it is, to stop e coli from contaminating beef! Or don't you know that the 'poop' (from cows, not dogs, fyi,Tex!) is probably in very small, nearly undetectable spatters, not the great big 'plops' ranchers are used to seeing???

Blaming the packer is counterproductive to finding a real solution to the e coli problem.

NO ONE has had to tell me any of that, it is my own opinion, based on the facts of how e coli moves and 'morphs' when attacked with the most promising of 'weapons', and on the facts of modern meat production. Clean and safe as it is, absolute perfection is probably not possible, especially given the fact that

Granted, there is NO excuse for a fabricating plant like Topps, or any other one, to ignore their own HACCP plan and mix meat without cleaning the previous days residue out of the machines, among other mistakes they made.

mrj

 

[Tex]

Blaming the packer is counterproductive to finding a real solution to the e coli problem.

We all know your solution is to blame the producer, mrj.

It is a processing problem. If they can't keep sheeet off the meat, they don't need to be a processor.

You just can not admit to that fact.

 

[Sandhusker]

MRJ, "Sandhusker, do YOU have any idea of what has been done to PREVENT that e coli coming out of the guts of your cattle, from contaminating packing plants? "

So what do you think is the acceptable level of e-coli caused sicknesses and deaths? I'd like an answer, please

MRJ, "Blaming the packer is counterproductive to finding a real solution to the e coli problem."

Where does the initial contamination take place?

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

MRJ, "Sandhusker, do YOU have any idea of what has been done to PREVENT that e coli coming out of the guts of your cattle, from contaminating packing plants? "

So what do you think is the acceptable level of e-coli caused sicknesses and deaths? I'd like an answer, please

MRJ, "Blaming the packer is counterproductive to finding a real solution to the e coli problem."

Where does the initial contamination take place?

I heard and this is fully substantiated by my own opinion that E coli starts when bankers handle one dollar bills. :nod: :tiphat:

 

[mrj]

Sandhusker, I've made it quite clear, at least to unbiased people, that there is NO acceptable level of any contaminant in food.

The sad fact is, perfection is simply not possible without sterilization and impervious packaging of the beef, followed by proper refrigeration and adherence to 'use by' dates.

And that is especially so when there are so many places and points in the processing and distribution of beef where contamination can occur, including in the home after the final sale of the product to the consumer.

You insist it is all the packers' fault.........but the packer didn't have it in his plant until someones' critter brought it into his plant from the ranch or farm of origin, did he? That is, barring contamination by a human, which I believe you have never recognized is possible.

Therefore, the contamination originates on a ranch or farm, where it goes into the bovine gut, and that bovine carries it into the packing plant.

No blame to anyone, simply stating the sequence of events of transmission of e coli, something that originates in nature and moves through your water troughs and grasses, also coming from the deer, racoons, birds, etc.

Yes, it PROBABLY can be kept from contaminating the meat in the plant, IF all procedures are properly followed, and generally that is what happens.

However, e coli is extremely elusive and difficult to contain. Many very costly, but promising protocols have been used successfully, only to fail at some point in the process.

The e coli problem won't be solved until recognize the facts of difficulty in controlling e coli, ALL segments work to find the least cost, most effective solutions to the problem, AND educate consumers on proper methods to eliminate cross contamination of foods in the kitchen, IMO.

Lets see now, what workable, absolute solution have you proposed?

mrj

 

[Tex]

Sandhusker, I've made it quite clear, at least to unbiased people, that there is NO acceptable level of any contaminant in food.

The sad fact is, perfection is simply not possible without sterilization and impervious packaging of the beef, followed by proper refrigeration and adherence to 'use by' dates.

And that is especially so when there are so many places and points in the processing and distribution of beef where contamination can occur, including in the home after the final sale of the product to the consumer.

You insist it is all the packers' fault.........but the packer didn't have it in his plant until someones' critter brought it into his plant from the ranch or farm of origin, did he? That is, barring contamination by a human, which I believe you have never recognized is possible.

Therefore, the contamination originates on a ranch or farm, where it goes into the bovine gut, and that bovine carries it into the packing plant.

No blame to anyone, simply stating the sequence of events of transmission of e coli, something that originates in nature and moves through your water troughs and grasses, also coming from the deer, racoons, birds, etc.

Yes, it PROBABLY can be kept from contaminating the meat in the plant, IF all procedures are properly followed, and generally that is what happens.

However, e coli is extremely elusive and difficult to contain. Many very costly, but promising protocols have been used successfully, only to fail at some point in the process.

The e coli problem won't be solved until recognize the facts of difficulty in controlling e coli, ALL segments work to find the least cost, most effective solutions to the problem, AND educate consumers on proper methods to eliminate cross contamination of foods in the kitchen, IMO.

Lets see now, what workable, absolute solution have you proposed?

mrj

I guess the only solution is to not allow your cattle to the processing plant, mrj.

 

[mrj]

Tex/Econ, if that is what you want,and it works for you, go for it! Open your own processing plant and advertise and sell your pristine brand beef. Better buy a super big liability insurance policy, too.

mrj

 

[Tex]

Tex/Econ, if that is what you want,and it works for you, go for it! Open your own processing plant and advertise and sell your pristine brand beef. Better buy a super big liability insurance policy, too.

mrj

You will not tie bse to packers but are willing to tie ecoli back to the cattlemen?

With friends like you, who needs enemies?

 

[Sandhusker]

MRJ, "Sandhusker, I've made it quite clear, at least to unbiased people, that there is NO acceptable level of any contaminant in food."

If there is no acceptable level of contamination, what is the use of bragging about what has been done when those efforts clearly have failed miserably? There is nothing to brag on yet. Instead, an admission that we have far to go is in line. You're like a football coach that is bragging on all the tackling work in practice, meanwhile the team is still giving up 60 points a game.

MRJ, "And that is especially so when there are so many places and points in the processing and distribution of beef where contamination can occur, including in the home after the final sale of the product to the consumer."

If you understand that e-coli comes from the guts of cattle, how can the beef be contaminated at home, at the store, or at the grinder? Are there guts at the home, the store, or at the grinder? Let me answer for you; "NO". Therefore the contamination is happening BEFORE it gets to those places. It is happening at the PACKER!

MRJ, "You insist it is all the packers' fault.........but the packer didn't have it in his plant until someones' critter brought it into his plant from the ranch or farm of origin, did he? That is, barring contamination by a human, which I believe you have never recognized is possible."

It wasn't on the beef intil the packer got sloppy. Therefore, it is the packer's fault.

MRJ, "No blame to anyone, simply stating the sequence of events of transmission of e coli, something that originates in nature and moves through your water troughs and grasses, also coming from the deer, racoons, birds, etc. "

So, if you open a bag of flour and find the bag half full of mouse turds, will you accept that excuse from the flour company? "Hey, Mrs. Jones, it's natural, mice eat and crap. It's not our fault"

MRJ, "The e coli problem won't be solved until recognize the facts of difficulty in controlling e coli, ALL segments work to find the least cost, most effective solutions to the problem, AND educate consumers on proper methods to eliminate cross contamination of foods in the kitchen, IMO. Lets see now, what workable, absolute solution have you proposed? "

Trusting high-school kids, stoners, and the proverbial "burger flippers" with our food safety and industry viability is not a workable absolute solution. It's shortsighted, lazy, and proven ineffective and dangerous. I've proposed using the tests we already have to locate and quarantine contaminated product at the point of contamination - THE PACKER - before it even leaves the building. They can look at the possibility of slowing the dang chains down or adding an operation so that they can pass a clean carcass down the line - maybe hire people who can speak and read English.

 

[bse-tester]

On one visit to a slaughter facility I talked with a group of guys who were wearing their chain-mail gloves used when boning. Every single one of those guys had at various times, cut themselves and bled on the cutting table. One guy sliced his finger so bad it almost came off. When asked if the line was stopped and the blood was cleaned from the table and the area sanitized, they simply laughed and gave me the look that says only one thing - NOPE!

So where do you draw the line in the sand??

Enjoy those steaks folks, they taste simply devine huh??

 

[Mrs.Greg]

On one visit to a slaughter facility I talked with a group of guys who were wearing their chain-mail gloves used when boning. Every single one of those guys had at various times, cut themselves and bled on the cutting table. One guy sliced his finger so bad it almost came off. When asked if the line was stopped and the blood was cleaned from the table and the area sanitized, they simply laughed and gave me the look that says only one thing - NOPE!

So where do you draw the line in the sand??

Enjoy those steaks folks, they taste simply devine huh??

Well yes our steaks do taste devine because they come off our place but I'm assuming that whatever your role was in visiting the slaughter plant it entailed you reporting this incident.As a cattleman our business is to get the beef hoof to table safely :!:

 

[Longcut]

On one visit to a slaughter facility I talked with a group of guys who were wearing their chain-mail gloves used when boning. Every single one of those guys had at various times, cut themselves and bled on the cutting table. One guy sliced his finger so bad it almost came off. When asked if the line was stopped and the blood was cleaned from the table and the area sanitized, they simply laughed and gave me the look that says only one thing - NOPE!

So where do you draw the line in the sand??

Enjoy those steaks folks, they taste simply devine huh??

Yes our steaks do taste great despite people like you telling our customers otherwise! Spreading third hand stories that target our product is an odd way of trying to convince cattlemen to support you in acceptance of your test.

 

[Sandhusker]

On one visit to a slaughter facility I talked with a group of guys who were wearing their chain-mail gloves used when boning. Every single one of those guys had at various times, cut themselves and bled on the cutting table. One guy sliced his finger so bad it almost came off. When asked if the line was stopped and the blood was cleaned from the table and the area sanitized, they simply laughed and gave me the look that says only one thing - NOPE!

So where do you draw the line in the sand??

Enjoy those steaks folks, they taste simply devine huh??

Yes our steaks do taste great despite people like you telling our customers otherwise! Spreading third hand stories that target our product is an odd way of trying to convince cattlemen to support you in acceptance of your test.

What third-hand story?

 

[RobertMac]

Some of you people are unbelievable! Beef is OUR product...if the consumer doesn't perceive it as SAFE and HEALTHY, they are going to buy less of it. They buy less beef, your cattle are worth less(I would think you Canadians had that figured out by now). Who is responsible for turning cattle into SAFE beef??????????????????????

 

[Longcut]

Some of you people are unbelievable! Beef is OUR product...if the consumer doesn't perceive it as SAFE and HEALTHY, they are going to buy less of it. They buy less beef, your cattle are worth less(I would think you Canadians had that figured out by now). Who is responsible for turning cattle into SAFE beef??????????????????????

"Enjoy those steaks folks, they taste simply devine huh??" If you are a beef producer and support that I would say that you are the one who is unbelievable.

 

[mrj]

Some of you boys are unbelieveable.........taking as gospel the 'stories' told by workers trying to impress the google eyed visitors to the mean streets of a packing plant!!!!

Reminds one of the story out of another packing plant that appeared on TV 20 or more years ago, complete with 'pus' from an 'abscess' on the table next to meat going on to be packaged. Turned out, it was pistachio pudding used to simulate the pus someone 'said' they had seen on abscesses at some time! There was no actual abscessed beef on that table. There are no limits for those who intend to create, or to add to controversy.

Sandhusker, You, as usual, ignore the FACT that the incidences of e coli DROPPED more than 70% for several years. Those were YEARS of success that can only be ignored by people like yourself with an agenda to promote. That success continued UNTIL some people made mistakes (at the Topps plant) and the e coli got tougher and/or found ways around the protocols being used to stop it.

Both of those situations are equally important. The former (and the largest recall) was easily preventable, had Topps not ignored their own HACCPP.

The latter requires more detective work to find the source of the problems. More and better testing to remove contaminated product (already implemented by FSIS) from going to consumers will help prevent further illnesses.

Proper hygienic personal and food preparation practices in homes and businesses to prevent cross contamination and illness in the rare case when e coli contaminated product does make it past all the other barriers is also just common sense.

Sandhusker,what fool-proof method do you recommend to remove flecks of manure, or to sterilize it before the critter walks into the packing plant? Or, to prevent the animal from spewing it out inside the plant? And, what is YOUR fool-proof means of removing all the gut sources of contamination from the animal with no possibility that it can contaminate any beef or escape airborne into the heating/cooling ducts to be transmitted to other areas where it may contaminate beef? How do you know "the packer got sloppy"? Why did some of the pre-slaughter washes, chemical (vinnegar, for one) or heated carcass rinses, and other costly protocols work for years, then fail?Just tell us how you would do it with absolute, guaranteed perfection, without causing loss of productivity and costing the entire industry more than can be endured and still stay in business.

Sandhusker, do you know for a fact that fecal contamination in the packing plant is the ONLY source of e coli contamination of beef? I'm quite sure it is not, and that there is much that the best of scientists do not yet know about the sources of contamination. Do you know the size of the batch of hamburger that would have to be tested to assure no possibility of contamination with e coli? How do you know that every single burger would not require multiple samples be tested?

Then there is the nasty little fact that union rules, and packer fears of personell retaliation, that have prevented testing employees to see if their lack of personal cleanliness could be spreading e coli from their own bodies onto the beef. Do you KNOW the size of a batch that must be sampled to catch every possibility of e coli contamination? I do not. I don't know about you, but I'd darn sure rather take my chances on cow poop in beef than that from human workers!!!!

Sandhusker, you make it very clear that you do not believe the packers actually are losing money, or that hiring only super intelligent, well educated and motivated workers for all food preparation steps would raise food costs to where few could afford to buy anything, let alone beef! What are you planning.........for food production costs to be paid by government????

Econ/Tex, we have to face the fact that if e coli is to be eliminated, it has to include on the ranch. Vaccines are being developed to help with that. It certainly will cost the cattlemen something, but so does stopping all the other problems we vaccinate for. ALL segments of the industry, and food preparers, both professional and in the home, all doing their share to end the e coli problem is necessary. If you do not understand that, YOU are an enemy of both the producer and the consumer, ultimately.

I want packing plants and workers and all food products to be the best and safest thay they can be. I also want people from all walks of life to be able to afford to eat! That is not mutually exclusive, but your 'dream system' of snails pace chains, fantasy quality workers, and more inspectors than workers would make it quite impossible!

mrj