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Bigger Not Always Better When It Comes to Bull

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Sizing Down the Herd
Bigger Not Always Better When It Comes to Bull
Mon Feb 28, 2011 09:21 AM CST Print Email

By Boyd Kidwell
Progressive Farmer Contributing Editor




Tim Ohlde is a Kansas cattleman with a national reputation for selling cattle that can succeed in two very different worlds. They meet feedlot demands for gains, but also are capable of living in the real world, raising calves on limited nutrition.

Take a look at the cows at Ohlde Cattle Co. What you'll see are moderate-sized, deep-bodied animals with loads of capacity (guts) and the ability to flesh easily on forage.

"If you take a 1,500-pound cow and a 1,100-pound cow and compare the two, the larger cow eats one-third more feed but she won't produce a calf that weighs one-third more than the smaller cow's calf," says Ohlde, who ranches at Palmer.

With that in mind, he has worked for more than 20 years to breed cows that thrive on grass without feed supplements and produce calves that perform well in feedlots. The key points Ohlde selects for are low birthweight, high weaned value and what the Angus breed association calls Cow Energy Value. This value is a means of comparing sires for their ability to reduce cow energy requirements in future daughters.

With the pinch of high feed costs, cow energy measurements are a way to help commercial producers breed replacement females that don't eat up their profits.

Over years of selecting on this criteria, Ohlde has decreased birthweight by 2 pounds, increased yearling weight 15 pounds and reduced the average frame score of his cows. Key to this has been bull size.

"If you buy the largest bull at a sale, the steers out of him might finish in the feedlot at 1,500 pounds, but the replacement heifers out of the bull will keep growing until they reach 1,400 pounds. I want steers that grow like crazy to reach 1,200 pounds as yearlings and heifers that reach 1,100 pounds -- and then growth shuts off," says Ohlde.

As feed and fertilizer prices skyrocket, other producers are realizing bigger isn't better when it comes to cows.


Entire article:
http://www.dtnprogressivefarmer.com/dtnag/common/link.do?symbolicName=/free/livestock/news/template1&product=/ag/news/livestock/features&vendorReference=0702DDBA&paneContentId=3030&paneParentId=0
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I really like OCC cattle and have bought two bulls with OCC blood over the years. Both have thrown nice calves that had great birth weights, gained well and left me nice heifers to boot!
 
If anyone is looking for that type of cattle- I became aware today of a fellow that has 70 4 and 5 year old Diamond D bloodline commercial cows for sale- bred back to Diamond D bulls to start calving Apr 20th...
Wants $1600 each...
A retirement dispersion- cattle are in Buffalo Wyo area....

If anyone is interested PM me- or e-mail me and I'll give you the contact info.....
 
oldblood said:
Oldtimer, you better post this on Advantage so your dear friend Al can read this. :D
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:lol: :lol: Actually I did in one of the threads...But I think he's too busy out financing corn cribs - and/or promoting his save the world "cookie cutter" bull in the elite show rings of the country that he may have missed it.... :wink:

Nothing wrong with Al (and I've talked to him several times on the phone)--except he is a young pup- silverspooned-and banker/born and educated- that has a midwest (east of the Mississippi) cornfield idea of cattle--- where in actuallity much of this country can hardly grow grass sometimes-- let alone corn.....

I'd love nothing better than to be sitting at a table with Al and Tim Ohlde- sitting over a pitcher of beer and discussing cattle breeding.... And from what I've saw and heard- I'd put my money on Tim about 100 fold :wink:

Just think if we could add in Dennis Voss, Larry Leonard, Mike Keeney, Mark Deboo, Jack McNamee, Tom Elliot, and a few others to that beer table-- Hell I'd buy pitchers of beer all night in listening to Al tell them that their cattle won't work .... :lol:
 
I am watching a simmental sale right now with bulls trading for $4500-7000. they have 13 month bulls weighing 1700 lbs. I don't think they read this article
 
Just Ranchin said:
I am watching a simmental sale right now with bulls trading for $4500-7000. they have 13 month bulls weighing 1700 lbs. I don't think they read this article
Click to expand...

If that's not a guarantee that they've been on a finishing ration, I don't know what is. I brand inspect fats every week that are 13-14 months and weigh from 1400-1700lbs. If these bulls are in the same age/weight bracket, they've been on a finishing ration also. That's ridiculous, but not as ridiculous as the people buying them.
 
I don't even want to get started on this one. I was reading the Lasater philosophy of the six essentials this morning-milk-hardiness-weight-conformation-disposition-fertility-it would be amazing how few cattle would last in most herds-including mine -if all six are given equal weight in a selection program and the cattle are raised without any props. I can think of some of the most popular lines in breeds would never have seen the light of day. A day with Tom Lasater would of been an interesting experience. If you don't improve the cowherds enviroment I can see in his deal how as cattle move to an extreme in one of the six criteria they'd fall out in one of the other five. I just deleted my paragraph of rant lol.
 
PureCountry said:
Just Ranchin said:
I am watching a simmental sale right now with bulls trading for $4500-7000. they have 13 month bulls weighing 1700 lbs. I don't think they read this article
Click to expand...

If that's not a guarantee that they've been on a finishing ration, I don't know what is. I brand inspect fats every week that are 13-14 months and weigh from 1400-1700lbs. If these bulls are in the same age/weight bracket, they've been on a finishing ration also. That's ridiculous, but not as ridiculous as the people buying them.
Click to expand...

I starting causing some trouble on the caht during the sale. I asked how the hell you get a bull to 1800 lbs at 14 months. The guy managing the sale said "they are crept 3 weeks before weaning, but that they are power simmental bulls". I retorted with the exact comment you just put up about 14 month calves being fat at 1400 lbs. I did not receive a comment back. To top it off, the welcome from the breeder said " the bulls are fed a no starch diet and hay". Amazing. Bulls fed no starch and are gaining 4.1 lbs/day. Those cattle should have been donated to science for being so incredible!
 
I've watched a lot of bull sales through the years, both on tv and in person. What I can't understand, is when the seller will send a cripple or gimpy bull through the ring. They will try to justify it by saying he slipped or stepped on a rock etc. etc.. Then they will guarantee soundness before breeding season. You don't see it as much out west as you do back east, but usually each sale will seem to have one or two. I've seen EPD's on what looked to have been a primo bull, and then when I see him he'll have a sore foot or limp. In my opinion, the herd sire industry is going through the same growing pains as the AQHA once did. By concentrating on the most desirable traits, seedstock producers have let a few of the most necessary traits fall by the wayside.

What does it matter how well a bull scores on his EPD's if he can't stay fit? Most folks don't want a lot of heavy bone, or we'd all be raising chars or simmies. Most prefer a good heavy deep body though. I remember as a kid seeing bulls fight all of the time and for the most part the injuries were insignificant. Nowadays it seems like when two bulls really get serious, one or both of them gets messed up.

When I look at a bull I try to do it as if I were looking at a horse. I start at the ground with his feet. Then I look at the heaviness of the leg bone. If he's weak here, he won't be able to cover distances for 4, 5 or 6 years. Then I move up to his body and the way he carries himself. Then I look at his paperwork. It doesn't matter if a bull weighs 1500# or 2200#. If he doesn't have the ability to carry himself the EPD's are a moot point and I sure as heck don't want to keep any heifers out of him.

This is just my opinion and I'm sure someone will tell me I'm wrong. Have a great day !
 
Just Ranchin said:
PureCountry said:
Just Ranchin said:
I am watching a simmental sale right now with bulls trading for $4500-7000. they have 13 month bulls weighing 1700 lbs. I don't think they read this article
Click to expand...

If that's not a guarantee that they've been on a finishing ration, I don't know what is. I brand inspect fats every week that are 13-14 months and weigh from 1400-1700lbs. If these bulls are in the same age/weight bracket, they've been on a finishing ration also. That's ridiculous, but not as ridiculous as the people buying them.
Click to expand...

I starting causing some trouble on the caht during the sale. I asked how the hell you get a bull to 1800 lbs at 14 months. The guy managing the sale said "they are crept 3 weeks before weaning, but that they are power simmental bulls". I retorted with the exact comment you just put up about 14 month calves being fat at 1400 lbs. I did not receive a comment back. To top it off, the welcome from the breeder said " the bulls are fed a no starch diet and hay". Amazing. Bulls fed no starch and are gaining 4.1 lbs/day. Those cattle should have been donated to science for being so incredible!
Click to expand...

Most people with bull sales are chasing the heavier the better scenario now a days.Thats fine if you want to look at a finished animal,but i want a bull that will go out and work.I bought a bull last year at a sale that i thought was quite impressive,owner said all they got was straight hay and no grain.He said he believed in only feeding hay to a growing bull.I don't feed grain to my bulls and 3 months later that bull didn't even look like the same bull anymore,he just fell apart.From now on i'm just going to try and buy bulls off of the farm,then atleast you can see how many grain troughs are in there corral.
 
The reality up here is that if you're looking for a yearling bull he's been grain fed. What bugs me are the outfits that think we're stupid.
I was looking through a guys bulls last year and pretty much had one picked out to buy. He spouted off that all these bulls got was grass hay and one pound of screening pellets per head per day. I asked him how he got from one end of his 30' bunk to the other with one pail of pellets and he clammed right up.
His bulls were in about right condition and if he would have said 10 pounds per head he would have made the sale. A little thing called integrity.
 
starvin'dog said:
The reality up here is that if you're looking for a yearling bull he's been grain fed. What bugs me are the outfits that think we're stupid.
I was looking through a guys bulls last year and pretty much had one picked out to buy. He spouted off that all these bulls got was grass hay and one pound of screening pellets per head per day. I asked him how he got from one end of his 30' bunk to the other with one pail of pellets and he clammed right up.
His bulls were in about right condition and if he would have said 10 pounds per head he would have made the sale. A little thing called integrity.
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To be a bird on the fence on that one! The other thing is the new fad that the bulls get pellets, but they have abolsutely no grain. The bulls then weigh 1400+ at 365 days, and they market the bulls gain on NO GRAIN! They really think I am stupid
 
BAR BAR 2 said:
I've watched a lot of bull sales through the years, both on tv and in person. What I can't understand, is when the seller will send a cripple or gimpy bull through the ring. They will try to justify it by saying he slipped or stepped on a rock etc. etc.. Then they will guarantee soundness before breeding season. You don't see it as much out west as you do back east, but usually each sale will seem to have one or two. I've seen EPD's on what looked to have been a primo bull, and then when I see him he'll have a sore foot or limp. In my opinion, the herd sire industry is going through the same growing pains as the AQHA once did. By concentrating on the most desirable traits, seedstock producers have let a few of the most necessary traits fall by the wayside.

What does it matter how well a bull scores on his EPD's if he can't stay fit? Most folks don't want a lot of heavy bone, or we'd all be raising chars or simmies. Most prefer a good heavy deep body though. I remember as a kid seeing bulls fight all of the time and for the most part the injuries were insignificant. Nowadays it seems like when two bulls really get serious, one or both of them gets messed up.

When I look at a bull I try to do it as if I were looking at a horse. I start at the ground with his feet. Then I look at the heaviness of the leg bone. If he's weak here, he won't be able to cover distances for 4, 5 or 6 years. Then I move up to his body and the way he carries himself. Then I look at his paperwork. It doesn't matter if a bull weighs 1500# or 2200#. If he doesn't have the ability to carry himself the EPD's are a moot point and I sure as heck don't want to keep any heifers out of him.

This is just my opinion and I'm sure someone will tell me I'm wrong. Have a great day !
Click to expand...

You're wrong! :D

Actually, you might be right. We go at things the opposite way. Look at the numbers (balance, not max) and then make sure the phenotypes fit on the cattle we are interested in. I have seen some nice cattle with high birthweights, or low growth, and seen some poor cattle with "good" numbers. I don't want either.

I think a lot of the "purebred" outfits that get a bad name or push their bulls, do it for a simple reason. People will pay for it. The people who run these outfits are no dummies. There may be a better way, but the reality is that if the current approach pays the bills with some left over, they are unlikely to change how they do things. If the customer is always right, and they have fantastic sale averages, then I can disagree all I want, but I am not sure they are wrong. :twisted:
 
Today I watched parts of the Mytty sale on Superior--and they sold pretty well...But I noticed that when the BW on the bull got above 90lbs (some in the 100+'s) the price took a pretty severe drop- and old Roger would have to work to get $2000 for them....
 
Oldtimer said:
Today I watched parts of the Mytty sale on Superior--and they sold pretty well...But I noticed that when the BW on the bull got above 90lbs (some in the 100+'s) the price took a pretty severe drop- and old Roger would have to work to get $2000 for them....
Click to expand...

Thats how it is here over 90# birth weight do yourself a favor and cut them. I've got a few with over 90# birth weights 2 Viking GD60 sons one of which I'm keeping for myself. Like it or not Fat sells you just need to know how fat you can get them. My bulls look green yet and it's 33 days from sale time so we are pushing them a bit but 5#s of grain a day and tame hay does'nt get them in sale condition. The problem lies in if they are in their work cloths 90% of the people will turn away. I don't like over feeding but 900# bulls don't sell well here 1100# do.It's a nerve racking hobby to fat to thin some get over done some under alot depends on age.I've got some May born bulls that will be big enough but along side febuary calves they look small.
 
Well I paid alot more private treaty for bulls raised right for a customer than the fatties sold for at a halter sale today. Wrong is wrong and I don't care how it's rationalized or justified-if I sent somebody cattle like that I'd be out of the bull buying business P.D.Q. My breeding females sell fine in their working clothes and damn sure not at the bottom of the market.
 
I should have been on this thread with my SAV comments, I hadn't read this one for a few days.

Every once in a while I get that urge to spice up my straight Angus with a little kick of continental. So I called a breeder for his Simmental sale catalogue. Pictures look awesome but birthweights are through the roof. I didn't count but I would bet that at least half of the half blood bulls are over 100#. That probably wouldn't work to good calving on grass like I do. :shock:

I'm over the urge already.
 

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