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Breed Identity

Ya. We are around 30 miles or so southeast. They are now buying Red Angus bulls. They ussually come to our sale. Real good people. The one son, Landon, is taking it over. It is total a commercial outfit now.
 
You have the same initials as my buddy at Belle Fourche-woulkdn't that of been funny if you'd of been him lol. Those red angus/simm hfrs would be awesome from Arnold's I'd think.
 
People look at culling as the solution for eliminating late calvers. I buy these, add a little more feed and mineral and they usually straighten out. I know we need to have cattle for our environment, but I think guys try to starve profit into cows once in awhile. Take the young mothers growing and the older cows and find way to boost them a bit. Much cheaper than replacing if seperation is possible,


PPRM
 
Those would be some great heifers. I would like them to consign a group to my bull sale each year. They would draw a premium, because they are good.
 
back on topic...I believe that each breed association does a decent job of defining what "their" breed identity is. However, I have seen that many times, people market their cattle for traits not traditionally associated with that breed...soley for the purpose of catering to the buyer's preference.

As an example, beefmasters have never been bred for color and the BBU has acknowledged this. Besides, given their diverse background, it would be difficult to breed out a certain color anyways. However, lately, some people are breeding only black genetics...why? Because the buyer in today's market is willing to pay more for a black cow.
 
ok Ross here's my point.... If the Breed association is doing a good job defining their breed....How many animals are disqualified from each breed because they fail to meet those standards each year???? Talk is cheap, I am saying a breed Org will do itself a favor with some action,

PPRM
 
PPRM said:
ok Ross here's my point.... If the Breed association is doing a good job defining their breed....How many animals are disqualified from each breed because they fail to meet those standards each year???? Talk is cheap, I am saying a breed Org will do itself a favor with some action,
PPRM
Click to expand...

Pat, Are you saying each breed should set a standard and each registered animal should meet those standards or be disqualified? Give me an example of the standards you are referring to.

Problem I see with that is for example: You neighbor Alan may have a completely different type customer than me for Chars. And also, traits aren't known to be passed until progeny are in production.

If you are talking "Physical" defects, those would be subject to interpretation by someone.

I believe that if you have good cattle they will sell. If you don't they won't sell.
 
It is pretty tough to eliminate cattle from an association. For one, who will be the judge, everyones eye is different, and I hate to say it but their would most likely be alot of hidden deals going on like it happens sometimes in the showring. Next, at least in the Red Angus ash. every animal has to turn in a record of some sort, called Total Herd Reporting. If it is not it is taken off your inventory, this makes the EPDs a little more realistic. By doing this every animal has to pay a $15 due a year. This money keeps my association up and running. Although we do have a type of elimination in place for illegle white, but it is not a total elimination.

I see what you mean though, some cattle should not be sold as seed stock but they are. We all just need to be picky with our cattle. Like Mike said, the good cattle will sell good. That is the way it should be, and I see it happening more and more every day. Yesterday on Superior their was about a dime spread between the good to average cattle, not just color anymore.
 
ok,

Lets take Angus for example... For years the breed Identity was easy calving, marbling and they were known as good mothers....

Here's an example....Set an upper linit to BW.... Apply this to where if a bulls progeny are throwing these high BW calves, then the bull is subject to loss of registration... Isn't saying folks can't sell these to commercial producers, but that line is no longer part of the registry.

AQHA has disqualified horses for years, and it hasn't hurt their nimbers. Doesn't have to be extremely severe or try to make a cookie cutter breed. I would say some degree of sifting for physical characteristics would also be a good idea.

Hmmm.... how bad do I want to be part of an association where anything with parents with papers can be let in????? LOL

PPRM
 
ohhh the infamous white on Angus-if you take a look at the original Angus cattle in Great Britain they had alot of white-a breed champion in the 1800's was 'Grey Breasted Jock' and his name fit him. One thing those infamous little white patches do is get some awfully good bulls into commercial herds. I think the best GDAR Rainmaker calf I ever saw lived and died on the Beaver River because of a quarter sized patch of white on his navel. Breed standards would be great if you got 10 of the best commercial men in the country to set them but I imagine it would be a group from Denver or Agribition setting the style of the day. Your customers will tell you pretty quickly if you are on the right track-they'll tell you REALLY FAST if you are on the wrong one and try and get them to join you. Nothing gets my goat more than a breeder whose never fed a pen of cattle telling me what I need.
 
NR..I am laughing my tail off...Never fed cattle is right.... These guys that think a calf that matures on feed at 1000 lbs and ends up select 4 (ohh, ribeye matters?LOL) is ideal for me to buy because they don't look past the feed bill??????? I hear all the time, "Can't be too big or the steaks won't fit in the box." Well I tell you, I sell on the grid. If anybody thinks Tyson won't discount or reject cattle that don't work, they are fooling themselves.......

Guess what, the upper limit on Carcass weight is 950 pounds folks. If these steaks weren't fitting in the box, they would drop that lower. At a 60% yeild, we are talking a 1583 pound calf. I want a cushion, but I can safely go to 1500 pounds here........

Also, look at butcher cow buyers. They will tell yo the cost is very similar to process a 1000 pound cow vs. a 1600 pound cow. So bigger cows reduce cost per pound processing. That is a reason for larger cows bringging a bit more...

Lots of factors go into making money feeding calves. If you can't bring me size, at least don't sell me calves that won't grade or yeild...


Oh my, ya found one of my soap boxes, lol,


PPRM
 
It can even be bigger than that if you want, because you can still sell them live by the pound. My father-in-law does this. Some get to 1600lbs. He uses big old Char. bulls on his Angus cows. It doesn't really matter how big those feeders get as long as the COG is low. I personally like a 63% yeild or higher with an 850 lbs carcass.
 
Pat, here's some breed standards.

Recommended Scrotal Minimums

12 Months 32 cm
15-20 Months 34 cm
21-30 Months 35 cm
30+ Months 36 cm

Recommended Weights (Males)
1 Year 1100 pounds
2 Years 1650 pounds



Breed minimums are periodically reviewed by the Breed Improvement Committee.
 
Now,

Those are recommended, I am saying minimum required. For Breed Identity, it would be too costly to have too many traits independently measured. What I am saying is pick a few that are most important to the breed,

Pat
 
If you guys don't mind, I'll put a nichels worth in here. I think your all right. As Mike says, the good ones will sell to commercial breeders, the rest will be traded between registered breeders, for example, EXT was used so extensively, I even used him on heifers, but as soon as the commercial guys had one of those heifers clean his clock, you couldn't give those bulls away, but due to the registered guys advertisements, the damage had already been done. Pat you are also right that maybe the associations should put a stop to some of this stuff but they won't, they want members, they can only hope that the bad stuff does not sell, it would hurt the breed and the association. That is one of the reasons that I really like the Gelbvieh people. The judge at shows is given the EPD's of every animal shown, and the judge is given a list of what the GV breed is suppossed to be known for, milk, maternal, muscle and growth and that is what the class should be judged on. That is why I use Angus for marbling, calving ease, mature size and the Gelbviehs for growth, feedlot gain, maternal and attitude. Crossed these work great as they cover up each breeds weaknesses. then use a terminal Char on them, money in the bank. This years steers: Angus sired profit $151/ head (they don't gain as good, you still sell by the pound); GV sired $161/head profit (they don't marble as well but they gain); Char on the AN x GV, $171 profit/head, they have it all. I pick my AI sires on what the breed is suppossed to do, Angus have to marble very high and have moderate frame and calving ease, Gelbviehs have to have growth and muscle and a good disposition and the Chars just grow. I have not used a show winner for any reason, if they are advertised to the eighteenth degree I run away from them and I am now producing high choice carcasses with .1 inch backfat, 15 inch eyes, YG 1 and yielding 65% plus. Breeds should do what they are suppossed to do, not try to be like evrybody else, you will lose the complimentarity of each breed in these crosses. Now I will get off of my box. :roll:
 
sw,

I saw your cows in the other thread. I liked the look well enuff to take notice of anything you have to say....

I really agree with wht you are sayiing on the crossbreeding... One other thing I like is Angus x Simmental, also good growth and milk.....I agree with the Charlais being a good terminal cross.. The ones I have bought I tend to get a lot of Choice ones...I think bottom line is I can get more by crossing to a breed that has charactritics faster than by trying to select from my top end that is closest and working that way. I also go for high acc when looking over highly promoted new bulls.

What you describe is what I am shooting for as far as perfomance. On the Yeild, are you figuring that on delivered weight, shrunk weight.....It is something we throw out there a lot and make assumptions on how it is figured....

Hmmm...someday I might make a trip to Billings from Oregon if you have some cows for sale.....it is also easier to buy from someone that has a good program than to try to select from cows you don't know. Goes back to what I said about buying bulls from a commercial guy that has a program you like, the economy way of doing things and not getting into trouble....Heck, it would be worth the trip just to talk about your program some more even if I didn't come home with anything..

So chime in your nickels worth anytime sw..........

Oh, I am realistic about the breed organizations...what should be donne and what will be done are two different things.....but it doesn't take long for credibility to pay for itself
 

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