Amo
Well-known member
Ive boughten proably 15 bulls in my career. Have had 2 with an issue. One broke his tool in the winter well after 90 days. The other had a lacerated sheath. Vet said so, and I bought him from a guy that his garuntee was any problems (get out on the highway and hit) he was covered. So I got along fine there.
OK, here is the run down on my question. So I bought a bull from a certian production sale. It was basicly the last sale of the year, & they had a certian blood line that I wanted that was kinda hard to find. They had 2 of 7 sons that were free of DDC, so I went up in January to see if I wanted to wait till April 15 to buy a bull.
Went up there. Bulls were in basicly a feedlot pen. With a fair bit of frozen, chunky mud. Im not real good about looking at structure/feed & legs. Kinda figure if its a production sale (not CL of FB) & its AI sired stuff, most of the structural "stuff" should be either bred out or cut (casterated) out of the sale offering. I do remember one bull not walking the best. When I noticed it, he was over by the waterer. Lots of froze mud chunks, etc. He wasn't walking the swiftest right there. Thought I noticed some of that earlier. I didn't have a paper to write notes on, and he kept telling me about the different bulls. I do distinctly remember a bull in the sire group that I was interested in not walking very well when I left. Like I said, I ruled it up the the very rough mud by the waterer.
Well sale day came. I went up, and looked at the entire sire group again. They pen them is super small pens for the number of animals in there. They could walk around, but you really couldn't "see" them walk. My pick was a little stubborn at wanting to walk into the sale ring. He stood in the ring. After I bought him, I was digging my number out etc...didn't see him exit the ring. I hauled a bull & cow to sale barn on my way up to bull sale. They rode perfectly fine, but I did have 2 animals in the front compartment. Same compartment I put the bull in to take home. So thought Id save $100 and haul him home. Normally I don't do that. Backed trailer up after I settled, and he kinda jumped into the trailer wierd. I didn't get a good look, but made a lot of noise.
Drove about 15 miles. Stopped and got a pop. He was standing and everything was fine. 30 miles from that stop, I was going through a town. A person started to back out of parking spot from the side into my lane of traffic. I moved to the left slightly. There was a median (curb) to the left of my lane. I never hit it to the best of my knowledge. Neighbor of mine was sitting that the quick shop watching this gal & he said I never did anything radical. Drove another 30 miles from there to my house.
I went to unload bull. He was laying down & no matter how hard he tried he couldn't get up. Left front leg either didn't "function" or it was sore enough that he couldn't put weight on it. The trailer is only 6' wide instead of 6'8", & a very well used wood floor. Bull weighs right at 1400#s. Ya he is kinda fat. I didn't really have any hay/bedding. I called the vet & got his 2 cents. I then called the people I had just bought him from. I said "I cringe to ask, but what all does your breeding season garuntee cover?" I don't remember exactly what he said, but then he wanted to know what had happened. I hadn't really talked to anybody and wanted to be as honest and sincere as I could. So I told him about no hay in trailer, the old gal backing out, and bull not wanting to get up. Told him that I didn't think anything I did would of be radical enough to cause damage, but honestly didn't know what had happened. Just that I spent $5500 (for me is a plenty and was above sale average that day) on a bull and he can't get out of the trailer. Told him I was going to put hay and water in the trailer & enough hay that if he tried to get up hed have some traction. I was also going to be gone that next day, leave at 7 am. Told him the vet was going to come out and check him out, and make sure he had hay and water. He said "we want happy customers." We agreed to talk in a few days.
Well several hours latter the bull was turned half away around in the trailer, but still laying down. I unhooked trailer in a pen with the back gate open. Then next morning about 6:30 he was out of the trailer walking around. Left front leg was stiff, but he was getting around. A day or two latter you could tell it kinda hurt to stand up. Anyhow that morning I called the person I had talked to the night before and told him the bull was up and walking around, still sore. When he answered his cell, he said he was busy grinding hay ie. didn't have time to talk. I said, "I understand. Just wanted to let you know the bull was out of the trailer on his own and walking around this morning." Then he proceded to tell me that he looked the bull up after our conversation. Said that the group of bulls was ridding one bull very hard. He said that if it was that one they would of stood behind him 100%. He continued to say how the bull was out of a great old cow, etc. I was in a hurry and he was supposdily "grinding hay" so I said that we would talk in a few days. I felt it would show me being open and honest telling him that next morning that the bull had gotten up.
Well that conversation was 2 weeks ago yesterday. Haven't heard boo out of them since. I kinda figured I'd have to call them anyway. I talked to a guy that sat next to me at the sale the Sunday night following the sale. Asked him if he noticed anything about the bull. He said no, but he really wasn't paying attention. He said he was up there 3 days prior to the sale and looked at the bulls due to small pens/lack of ability to walk them around. I told him my story, and he said he didn't see nothing lame. The bull was getting quite a bit better by then, and I said I was guessing something must of happened out back during the sale in the small pens. He layed down to recoupe and couldn't get up, since he was getting better. Almost too small of pens for any kind of fighting to really happen, but it happens. Middle of last week, he was really moving around very well. Even this past weekend. He has been penned by himself. Continous fence panel between him and 2 other yearling bulls. Tuesday morning he was slightly stiff at getting up, and didn't walk real smooth. I haven't seen him get up in person. Have seen him down & up, just never getting up since Tuesday. He walks fair. I don't think he is in pain, but its not "smooth". Im not an expert on "structure". I talked to the vet the day after he came down and looked at him. I wasn't at home. He said his joints were swollen, most likely from a long trailer ride. He also thought he was to straight legged in order to get up from laying down in the trailer. It was a 75 mile trailer ride (maybe standing all day though) and most of the structural correctness should of been bred out of him Id think. I think he is a good vet, but I kinda disagreed with his hypthosis.
No I didn't have insurance on him. They offered it at the settlement table. I knew of a person that sold not only mortality, but also infertility, broken leg, etc...anything except frost bite for a year, and the premium was the same as straight mortality being offered at the clerking table. Like a dummy I figured nothing will happen. I wanted all 3 bulls on the same policy. Didn't have the other 2 bulls info or agents phone number with me etc. I do have mortality on this bull now, but that is all I have.
So now the ethical delima. No body really know what happend. I feel very confident that I didn't do anything reckless in hauling the bull home. Im going to go off the word of the person I talked to that looked at the bulls in a big pen that they were all sound several days prior to the sale. Im also going off the word of the person that represented the seller of bull with his statement about one bull being ridden that they are being fairly upfront and honest also. The thing is if they would of delivered him, and he wouldn't of gotten off their trailer, most likely I wouldn't of owned him. :? I plan on using him with at least one other rather dominant bull. He isn't a heifer bull, so I really cant run him by himself anywhere.
I bought the bull to be able to use him. If I don't use him that hard, or at all this year was it really worth buying him? If I complain they might take him back. Most likely theyd give me credit to use next year. Same difference as not using him this year. The sale manager they had floored every bull at $2500-3000. I don't have the garuntee infront of me, but it basicly says "Garuntee is for breeding season injuries 90 days after turnout. Must be dignosed by a vet, less salvage value. This doesn't cover death or negligence." You get the idea. I have talked to enough bull breeders that Ive heard storied about people that work the system. Try to have him go bad at the end of the season, not feed, etc. and get credit for a new one next year. That isn't what Im trying to do. I guess I do IMHO expect that if I purchase a bull I should be able to use him. I would like to get at least 3-4 years out of him. If he is structurally correct and nuts don't go bad he should be able to do that.
Guess Im concerned about a leg getting broke when I turn him out with another bull. I told them what had hapened during transport. I was slightly shaken up and felt I should be honest. At that time I didn't really know how far I accually manovered. I was more concerned that the old woman stopped. I also know what I say when I was up there in January. I also trust the gentlemans word that said he didn't see anything lame 3 days before sale. Ya I know something could of happened night before sale. I don't like to bench and I don't like to be a prick. I do crop insurance adjusting. In the long run, whining don't get you anywhere. Ive never bought from these people before, so that makes it sticky. Also its a partnership that has somewhat split. One person owns the cows & leased them to party B. Party B had leased them for maybe 10 years. The person that I have talked to is party C who depending on who you talk to kinda caused the split to an extent. He has a share in the bulls selling next year, but party B & the owner are the ones that sold bulls this year. I bought a bull from party B's production sale this year, but really don't know him. The cow owner was going to be the person who called in a few days, but hasn't called because I called the person that I was talking to and said bull had gotten up, but will talk in a few days.
Well I guess I feel I (for good customer support) they should of called by now. Im not supprised though, and feel I should call them. Cow owner most likely, yet party B is involved and was feeding the sale bulls, but my contact was out there daily as well. Im not sure what to do, or what I can do. If your strictly go off the garuntee, its not on their shoulders period. He walked in and out of the ring, and someone bid aginst me. He was settleing up so he really wasn't ring side, to see him walk in, but he might have. I looked at him prior to the sale, and wasn't an absentee buyer. I also had control of him on the way home. I also feel that if they knew something wasn't "structurally correct" they shouldn't of sold him. When he walks the back foot comes about 2-4" from the front hoof mark. I somewhat question my vets comments. I also remember what I say in January. There are some variables there too. If I had bought in the past, or bought a bunch of bulls I could have some leverage in getting them to take him back. If I complained enough I might still get them to take him back. If he wasn't a hard to find pedigree, that is maybe the route Id try to take. Like I said, if he wouldn't of walked off their trailer I proably wouldn't of had to take delivery. Is it something I did when bringing him home...maybe. I kinda doubt it, but nobody knows. They have no clue if Im fudging the facts. I really have no clue as to if he was sound when I purchased him. Im going off their word that nothing happened out back. Hired day help were working in the pens.
I kinda felt last week that he would get over it and everything would be fine. If he does recover 100% Id be perfectly happy. Guess Im slightly concerned about it now. Really not sure weather to roll the dice and hope nothing happens or be a P.I.T.A. and try to get my money back and move down the road. I guess I feel by the letter of the law Im stuck with him "as is". They also said they want happy customers & nothing spreads faster than a good story about someone getting screwed over either. Yet he told me that next morning that if it was the bull that was rode hard "they would of stood behind that bull 100%" Well this isn't "that" bull. Don't know till I talk to them. Hopefully they will be good to work with, and nothing happens down the road. Im very dumb on the garuntee stuff & injury stuff. Got a 30-40 days to turn out.
Guess what are your thoughts about him "recovering" and qualifying for garuntee status? I don't think by the book, he qualifies. Yet I feel if I bought something I should be able to at least get a seasons out of him. If I sold bulls Id feel the same way. I also understand people trying to pull fast ones. Where weve never done business together, and there are "issues" at the producers its kinda sticky. Neighbor paid good money for a bull one time. Didn't insure him. Had a breeding season garuntee. Went to brand him & he died in the chute. Called the people that sold him. Said in catalog, breeding injury only. Not a life insurance policy or cover neglet. Well you know how that turned out. Guess if I can get them to stand behind him for broken leg etc I could live with that. Which should be covered anyway, but stuff happened before "turn out". If they offer to take him back should I take them up on it? Like I said, its a pedigree I like, but its not like he will ever make it to a bull stud. Should I just let it ride? I really don't like that idea. How pushy should I get? I like to be tactfully polite. Thinking thats the route Ill take. Say he was really getting better, but then got sore again while all by himself. Concerned about making it through the season, or beyond a year. Not really asking for a refund/credit, but just some backing that even though he has some kind of issue if I turn him out, he is covered.
Im just concerned & confused. Never delt with something like this, and looking for advice from others that have maybe been down the same/similar path. Thanks.
OK, here is the run down on my question. So I bought a bull from a certian production sale. It was basicly the last sale of the year, & they had a certian blood line that I wanted that was kinda hard to find. They had 2 of 7 sons that were free of DDC, so I went up in January to see if I wanted to wait till April 15 to buy a bull.
Went up there. Bulls were in basicly a feedlot pen. With a fair bit of frozen, chunky mud. Im not real good about looking at structure/feed & legs. Kinda figure if its a production sale (not CL of FB) & its AI sired stuff, most of the structural "stuff" should be either bred out or cut (casterated) out of the sale offering. I do remember one bull not walking the best. When I noticed it, he was over by the waterer. Lots of froze mud chunks, etc. He wasn't walking the swiftest right there. Thought I noticed some of that earlier. I didn't have a paper to write notes on, and he kept telling me about the different bulls. I do distinctly remember a bull in the sire group that I was interested in not walking very well when I left. Like I said, I ruled it up the the very rough mud by the waterer.
Well sale day came. I went up, and looked at the entire sire group again. They pen them is super small pens for the number of animals in there. They could walk around, but you really couldn't "see" them walk. My pick was a little stubborn at wanting to walk into the sale ring. He stood in the ring. After I bought him, I was digging my number out etc...didn't see him exit the ring. I hauled a bull & cow to sale barn on my way up to bull sale. They rode perfectly fine, but I did have 2 animals in the front compartment. Same compartment I put the bull in to take home. So thought Id save $100 and haul him home. Normally I don't do that. Backed trailer up after I settled, and he kinda jumped into the trailer wierd. I didn't get a good look, but made a lot of noise.
Drove about 15 miles. Stopped and got a pop. He was standing and everything was fine. 30 miles from that stop, I was going through a town. A person started to back out of parking spot from the side into my lane of traffic. I moved to the left slightly. There was a median (curb) to the left of my lane. I never hit it to the best of my knowledge. Neighbor of mine was sitting that the quick shop watching this gal & he said I never did anything radical. Drove another 30 miles from there to my house.
I went to unload bull. He was laying down & no matter how hard he tried he couldn't get up. Left front leg either didn't "function" or it was sore enough that he couldn't put weight on it. The trailer is only 6' wide instead of 6'8", & a very well used wood floor. Bull weighs right at 1400#s. Ya he is kinda fat. I didn't really have any hay/bedding. I called the vet & got his 2 cents. I then called the people I had just bought him from. I said "I cringe to ask, but what all does your breeding season garuntee cover?" I don't remember exactly what he said, but then he wanted to know what had happened. I hadn't really talked to anybody and wanted to be as honest and sincere as I could. So I told him about no hay in trailer, the old gal backing out, and bull not wanting to get up. Told him that I didn't think anything I did would of be radical enough to cause damage, but honestly didn't know what had happened. Just that I spent $5500 (for me is a plenty and was above sale average that day) on a bull and he can't get out of the trailer. Told him I was going to put hay and water in the trailer & enough hay that if he tried to get up hed have some traction. I was also going to be gone that next day, leave at 7 am. Told him the vet was going to come out and check him out, and make sure he had hay and water. He said "we want happy customers." We agreed to talk in a few days.
Well several hours latter the bull was turned half away around in the trailer, but still laying down. I unhooked trailer in a pen with the back gate open. Then next morning about 6:30 he was out of the trailer walking around. Left front leg was stiff, but he was getting around. A day or two latter you could tell it kinda hurt to stand up. Anyhow that morning I called the person I had talked to the night before and told him the bull was up and walking around, still sore. When he answered his cell, he said he was busy grinding hay ie. didn't have time to talk. I said, "I understand. Just wanted to let you know the bull was out of the trailer on his own and walking around this morning." Then he proceded to tell me that he looked the bull up after our conversation. Said that the group of bulls was ridding one bull very hard. He said that if it was that one they would of stood behind him 100%. He continued to say how the bull was out of a great old cow, etc. I was in a hurry and he was supposdily "grinding hay" so I said that we would talk in a few days. I felt it would show me being open and honest telling him that next morning that the bull had gotten up.
Well that conversation was 2 weeks ago yesterday. Haven't heard boo out of them since. I kinda figured I'd have to call them anyway. I talked to a guy that sat next to me at the sale the Sunday night following the sale. Asked him if he noticed anything about the bull. He said no, but he really wasn't paying attention. He said he was up there 3 days prior to the sale and looked at the bulls due to small pens/lack of ability to walk them around. I told him my story, and he said he didn't see nothing lame. The bull was getting quite a bit better by then, and I said I was guessing something must of happened out back during the sale in the small pens. He layed down to recoupe and couldn't get up, since he was getting better. Almost too small of pens for any kind of fighting to really happen, but it happens. Middle of last week, he was really moving around very well. Even this past weekend. He has been penned by himself. Continous fence panel between him and 2 other yearling bulls. Tuesday morning he was slightly stiff at getting up, and didn't walk real smooth. I haven't seen him get up in person. Have seen him down & up, just never getting up since Tuesday. He walks fair. I don't think he is in pain, but its not "smooth". Im not an expert on "structure". I talked to the vet the day after he came down and looked at him. I wasn't at home. He said his joints were swollen, most likely from a long trailer ride. He also thought he was to straight legged in order to get up from laying down in the trailer. It was a 75 mile trailer ride (maybe standing all day though) and most of the structural correctness should of been bred out of him Id think. I think he is a good vet, but I kinda disagreed with his hypthosis.
No I didn't have insurance on him. They offered it at the settlement table. I knew of a person that sold not only mortality, but also infertility, broken leg, etc...anything except frost bite for a year, and the premium was the same as straight mortality being offered at the clerking table. Like a dummy I figured nothing will happen. I wanted all 3 bulls on the same policy. Didn't have the other 2 bulls info or agents phone number with me etc. I do have mortality on this bull now, but that is all I have.
So now the ethical delima. No body really know what happend. I feel very confident that I didn't do anything reckless in hauling the bull home. Im going to go off the word of the person I talked to that looked at the bulls in a big pen that they were all sound several days prior to the sale. Im also going off the word of the person that represented the seller of bull with his statement about one bull being ridden that they are being fairly upfront and honest also. The thing is if they would of delivered him, and he wouldn't of gotten off their trailer, most likely I wouldn't of owned him. :? I plan on using him with at least one other rather dominant bull. He isn't a heifer bull, so I really cant run him by himself anywhere.
I bought the bull to be able to use him. If I don't use him that hard, or at all this year was it really worth buying him? If I complain they might take him back. Most likely theyd give me credit to use next year. Same difference as not using him this year. The sale manager they had floored every bull at $2500-3000. I don't have the garuntee infront of me, but it basicly says "Garuntee is for breeding season injuries 90 days after turnout. Must be dignosed by a vet, less salvage value. This doesn't cover death or negligence." You get the idea. I have talked to enough bull breeders that Ive heard storied about people that work the system. Try to have him go bad at the end of the season, not feed, etc. and get credit for a new one next year. That isn't what Im trying to do. I guess I do IMHO expect that if I purchase a bull I should be able to use him. I would like to get at least 3-4 years out of him. If he is structurally correct and nuts don't go bad he should be able to do that.
Guess Im concerned about a leg getting broke when I turn him out with another bull. I told them what had hapened during transport. I was slightly shaken up and felt I should be honest. At that time I didn't really know how far I accually manovered. I was more concerned that the old woman stopped. I also know what I say when I was up there in January. I also trust the gentlemans word that said he didn't see anything lame 3 days before sale. Ya I know something could of happened night before sale. I don't like to bench and I don't like to be a prick. I do crop insurance adjusting. In the long run, whining don't get you anywhere. Ive never bought from these people before, so that makes it sticky. Also its a partnership that has somewhat split. One person owns the cows & leased them to party B. Party B had leased them for maybe 10 years. The person that I have talked to is party C who depending on who you talk to kinda caused the split to an extent. He has a share in the bulls selling next year, but party B & the owner are the ones that sold bulls this year. I bought a bull from party B's production sale this year, but really don't know him. The cow owner was going to be the person who called in a few days, but hasn't called because I called the person that I was talking to and said bull had gotten up, but will talk in a few days.
Well I guess I feel I (for good customer support) they should of called by now. Im not supprised though, and feel I should call them. Cow owner most likely, yet party B is involved and was feeding the sale bulls, but my contact was out there daily as well. Im not sure what to do, or what I can do. If your strictly go off the garuntee, its not on their shoulders period. He walked in and out of the ring, and someone bid aginst me. He was settleing up so he really wasn't ring side, to see him walk in, but he might have. I looked at him prior to the sale, and wasn't an absentee buyer. I also had control of him on the way home. I also feel that if they knew something wasn't "structurally correct" they shouldn't of sold him. When he walks the back foot comes about 2-4" from the front hoof mark. I somewhat question my vets comments. I also remember what I say in January. There are some variables there too. If I had bought in the past, or bought a bunch of bulls I could have some leverage in getting them to take him back. If I complained enough I might still get them to take him back. If he wasn't a hard to find pedigree, that is maybe the route Id try to take. Like I said, if he wouldn't of walked off their trailer I proably wouldn't of had to take delivery. Is it something I did when bringing him home...maybe. I kinda doubt it, but nobody knows. They have no clue if Im fudging the facts. I really have no clue as to if he was sound when I purchased him. Im going off their word that nothing happened out back. Hired day help were working in the pens.
I kinda felt last week that he would get over it and everything would be fine. If he does recover 100% Id be perfectly happy. Guess Im slightly concerned about it now. Really not sure weather to roll the dice and hope nothing happens or be a P.I.T.A. and try to get my money back and move down the road. I guess I feel by the letter of the law Im stuck with him "as is". They also said they want happy customers & nothing spreads faster than a good story about someone getting screwed over either. Yet he told me that next morning that if it was the bull that was rode hard "they would of stood behind that bull 100%" Well this isn't "that" bull. Don't know till I talk to them. Hopefully they will be good to work with, and nothing happens down the road. Im very dumb on the garuntee stuff & injury stuff. Got a 30-40 days to turn out.
Guess what are your thoughts about him "recovering" and qualifying for garuntee status? I don't think by the book, he qualifies. Yet I feel if I bought something I should be able to at least get a seasons out of him. If I sold bulls Id feel the same way. I also understand people trying to pull fast ones. Where weve never done business together, and there are "issues" at the producers its kinda sticky. Neighbor paid good money for a bull one time. Didn't insure him. Had a breeding season garuntee. Went to brand him & he died in the chute. Called the people that sold him. Said in catalog, breeding injury only. Not a life insurance policy or cover neglet. Well you know how that turned out. Guess if I can get them to stand behind him for broken leg etc I could live with that. Which should be covered anyway, but stuff happened before "turn out". If they offer to take him back should I take them up on it? Like I said, its a pedigree I like, but its not like he will ever make it to a bull stud. Should I just let it ride? I really don't like that idea. How pushy should I get? I like to be tactfully polite. Thinking thats the route Ill take. Say he was really getting better, but then got sore again while all by himself. Concerned about making it through the season, or beyond a year. Not really asking for a refund/credit, but just some backing that even though he has some kind of issue if I turn him out, he is covered.
Im just concerned & confused. Never delt with something like this, and looking for advice from others that have maybe been down the same/similar path. Thanks.