Bull sale book freak

[Hay Feeder]

I think I spend more time reading bull sale books than doing chores.
I wish more publications would list the results with the top few taken off the average. I am a slow learner but finally figured out the lots that attract ones attention are only used to get someone hooked on them so the other bulls can be sold stronger. I fully realize that the quality of cattle a much stronger in different area of the country.
in comparing just two sales one in Nebraska and two in Missouri the average was 3,300 less in Missouri at two sales than the Nebraska one. I found eight bulls to bid on in Nebraska and but one of them were higher than the top,sellers in Missouri even as far down as lot 200 in the Nebraska sale.
I understand that ranchers in the cattle belt can market their cattle stronger than other states commingled sale barn cattle primarily due to reputation and numbers.
How can a Missouri producer fee raise and sell bulls with today's commissions and feed expenses for 2700 and take home 200 to 300 less than that . . 2400 would not be a floor on some of the western sales

 

[BRG]

First of all, I want you to know I am not complaining, as if we didn't like it or if it wasn't financially worth it, we would do something else.

It is very expensive being in the bull business. First of all, I believe we have to have the best genetics possible. That is a huge responsibility! If our cattle aren't good footed, out of good cows who are easy fleshing, sound made, and good uddered, have a carcass that is above industry average, and have the performance needed, then our customers are going the wrong direction. So to do this we have to use the absolute best genetics we can find. So by doing this, we have to spend alot of money on semen, flushing embryos, herd sires, etc. Then the feed to get the bulls in the body condition needed to express potential. We went out and hired a nutritionist to help us do what we need to do correct. We used a no corn diet which we feel is easier on the animal in the long run. Then you have delivery of the bulls. It costs a lot of money driving all over getting the bulls where they need to go. Other expenses are semen testing, ultrasounding, DNA Tests, the bull haircuts, customer ranch visits and probably the most expense before the sale is the money sent to the breed associations. Then once you have the sale you have to pay 1% to the auctioneer, if you don't have a barn, then you will have 2 to 3% to the sale barn. Then you have the advertising. It cost us this year $200 per bull just in advertising/catalog. Then you have the meal, we used Superior to broadcast on the internet, and then the labor to get it all done.

Some guys have more expenses than others, but we figure if we are going to do it, then we are going to do it right. I would love to not spend so much, but so far it has paid for itself. I am sure their is something we can cut on, but I haven't figured out what it is yet.

 

[3 M L & C]

What kind of cull rate do you generally have on your bulls Brg? If you have 100 bulls born how many make it to the sale?

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

First of all, I want you to know I am not complaining, as if we didn't like it or if it wasn't financially worth it, we would do something else.

It is very expensive being in the bull business. First of all, I believe we have to have the best genetics possible. That is a huge responsibility! If our cattle aren't good footed, out of good cows who are easy fleshing, sound made, and good uddered, have a carcass that is above industry average, and have the performance needed, then our customers are going the wrong direction. So to do this we have to use the absolute best genetics we can find. So by doing this, we have to spend alot of money on semen, flushing embryos, herd sires, etc. Then the feed to get the bulls in the body condition needed to express potential. We went out and hired a nutritionist to help us do what we need to do correct. We used a no corn diet which we feel is easier on the animal in the long run. Then you have delivery of the bulls. It costs a lot of money driving all over getting the bulls where they need to go. Other expenses are semen testing, ultrasounding, DNA Tests, the bull haircuts, customer ranch visits and probably the most expense before the sale is the money sent to the breed associations. Then once you have the sale you have to pay 1% to the auctioneer, if you don't have a barn, then you will have 2 to 3% to the sale barn. Then you have the advertising. It cost us this year $200 per bull just in advertising/catalog. Then you have the meal, we used Superior to broadcast on the internet, and then the labor to get it all done.

Some guys have more expenses than others, but we figure if we are going to do it, then we are going to do it right. I would love to not spend so much, but so far it has paid for itself. I am sure their is something we can cut on, but I haven't figured out what it is yet.

I think you missed his point. :?

He was saying how do the breeders in Missouri handle the expenses and compete with the price of bulls so much cheaper in Missouri.

Wouldn't they have similar expenses as a Nebraska/ SD breeder?

 

[BRG]

First of all, I want you to know I am not complaining, as if we didn't like it or if it wasn't financially worth it, we would do something else.

It is very expensive being in the bull business. First of all, I believe we have to have the best genetics possible. That is a huge responsibility! If our cattle aren't good footed, out of good cows who are easy fleshing, sound made, and good uddered, have a carcass that is above industry average, and have the performance needed, then our customers are going the wrong direction. So to do this we have to use the absolute best genetics we can find. So by doing this, we have to spend alot of money on semen, flushing embryos, herd sires, etc. Then the feed to get the bulls in the body condition needed to express potential. We went out and hired a nutritionist to help us do what we need to do correct. We used a no corn diet which we feel is easier on the animal in the long run. Then you have delivery of the bulls. It costs a lot of money driving all over getting the bulls where they need to go. Other expenses are semen testing, ultrasounding, DNA Tests, the bull haircuts, customer ranch visits and probably the most expense before the sale is the money sent to the breed associations. Then once you have the sale you have to pay 1% to the auctioneer, if you don't have a barn, then you will have 2 to 3% to the sale barn. Then you have the advertising. It cost us this year $200 per bull just in advertising/catalog. Then you have the meal, we used Superior to broadcast on the internet, and then the labor to get it all done.

Some guys have more expenses than others, but we figure if we are going to do it, then we are going to do it right. I would love to not spend so much, but so far it has paid for itself. I am sure their is something we can cut on, but I haven't figured out what it is yet.

I think you missed his point. :?

He was saying how do the breeders in Missouri handle the expenses and compete with the price of bulls so much cheaper in Missouri.

Wouldn't they have similar expenses as a Nebraska/ SD breeder?

Sorry, I guess I should have finished out by saying, I am not sure how the guys like the ones he described can afford to sell at those prices. With expenses as high as they are, selling commercial cattle by the pound might be more profitable.

 

[nortexsook]

BRG.....looks like you did get sidetracked.....LOL

but thanks for the insight. I have wondered what the bigger sales pay the auctioneer/sale management team. Is 1% standard? Is that just the auctioneer or is that all sale management including catalogs, block help, clerking, ect????

Very curious and thanks

 

[BRG]

BRG.....looks like you did get sidetracked.....LOL

but thanks for the insight. I have wondered what the bigger sales pay the auctioneer/sale management team. Is 1% standard? Is that just the auctioneer or is that all sale management including catalogs, block help, clerking, ect????

Very curious and thanks

1% is standard auctioneer. Poor auctioneer or a great one. So you might as well have the best. That 1% is only the auctioning of the sale. All the other is extra expense.

 

[BRG]

What kind of cull rate do you generally have on your bulls Brg? If you have 100 bulls born how many make it to the sale?

I look at this different than most. I feel that if I have to cut 1/2 of the bulls every year, then our cows must not be any good. I hope every bull makes it, granted they don't, but they all get the chance. We are harder on our cows than most. We cull extremely hard on the cowherd, which makes the bull fall out rate a lot less. We sell around 25% off the bottom of the cows every year. Some of these are some really good cows, but if we are super hard on them, we can improve the cowherd real fast by keeping more heifers out of the top cows and in the end cull less bulls. Also, lots of the cows in the herd are out of a few different donor cows. (The best cows we have) which also improves our herd. So to answer your question, it is different each year, but our goal is to keep improving the cowherd which improves the calf crop so we can cut less bulls each year.

 

[Haytrucker]

Not trying to sound ignorant, BRG; but I'm not sure I heard a definite answer...
I worked for a "breeder" back in the day and I asked a very similiar question. His response was " If a cow can't raise a good bull, I won't keep her."
I'm not saying there is any thing wrong with that line of thinking, but I don't think every calf turns out special, bull or heifer.
I think the original question probably pertains to predicability, under a set management. I will go ahead and guess that year-to-year 87 percent of your weaned calves achieve the next level.
Whatever your numbers are, they all came frome the same expense per head...

 

[3 M L & C]

I liked your answer brg. The reason I asked is I was at a meating and they were talking about half the bulls not good enough to sell as breeding stock and that struck me as extreme. If you have a good cow heard. I also am of the opinion that it cost the same to feed a good cow as it does a not so good one so why not get rid of the slackers.

 

[High Plains]

Seems a seedstock producer could have any level of "good" bull calves imaginable. Putting a shingle out as a seedstock provider does not make the cattle good. One heavy-culling producer could have mostly good bulls and the next could have 25% good bulls. No two would be the same.

I have always wondered if there weren't a cap on that 1% that the auctioneer gets at certain sales. There could be an awful lot of money going to the auctioneer at Schaff's sale or Connealy's. I only mention those two because they'd gross a big number at their sale. 1% would not be chump change and I'd want to cap it at a certain figure if I were them. Since I were not them I guess my opinion doesn't much matter. :!: Just amusing myself. :wink:

 

[BRG]

Seems a seedstock producer could have any level of "good" bull calves imaginable. Putting a shingle out as a seedstock provider does not make the cattle good. One heavy-culling producer could have mostly good bulls and the next could have 25% good bulls. No two would be the same.

I have always wondered if there weren't a cap on that 1% that the auctioneer gets at certain sales. There could be an awful lot of money going to the auctioneer at Schaff's sale or Connealy's. I only mention those two because they'd gross a big number at their sale. 1% would not be chump change and I'd want to cap it at a certain figure if I were them. Since I were not them I guess my opinion doesn't much matter. :!: Just amusing myself. :wink:

I can't say for certain as I don't pay their (schaff/connealy)bills, but I have never heard of a cap for an auctioneer. We sell 250 head of commercial heifers for our customers in our sale every year, and they have to pay 1% as well. Just the way it is.

 

[BRG]

Not trying to sound ignorant, BRG; but I'm not sure I heard a definite answer...
I worked for a "breeder" back in the day and I asked a very similiar question. His response was " If a cow can't raise a good bull, I won't keep her."
I'm not saying there is any thing wrong with that line of thinking, but I don't think every calf turns out special, bull or heifer.
I think the original question probably pertains to predicability, under a set management. I will go ahead and guess that year-to-year 87 percent of your weaned calves achieve the next level.
Whatever your numbers are, they all came frome the same expense per head...

I didn't answer you because each year is different. I don't have a set # that says only 50% or 60% of my bull calves will make it. Like I said, if we had to cut 50% of my bulls for quality, then we have a high percent of cows that need to hit the road.

 

[Howdy1]

I have heard that Joe Goggins and Lynn Weishaar each receive $50,000 (or split $50,000) can't remember which, for doing Schaff's bull sale. Nothing but heresay, remind you.

 

[Hay Feeder]

I am still trying to pencil out why I should sell four bulls to buy one Dakota yearling that still would need his feet trimmed
What I am learning here that a pretty sale book and nice quick sounding auctioneer and slick sales manager actually makes the bull sire better calves or does it just make one feel better when they write a check for a 10,000 bull that is delivered free.

 

[3words]

I am still trying to pencil out why I should sell four bulls to buy one Dakota yearling that still would need his feet trimmed
What I am learning here that a pretty sale book and nice quick sounding auctioneer and slick sales manager actually makes the bull sire better calves or does it just make one feel better when they write a check for a 10,000 bull that is delivered free.

You are right on both accounts,something has to pay for that fancy bull sale catalogue and the booze after the sale,and some guys want the bragging rights at the bull sale for paying $10000 for a bull,but they are sure dreading that ride home in the truck with the Mrs on the way home.And just because a bull sells for $10000,that doesn't mean it actually did.

 

[BRG]

I am still trying to pencil out why I should sell four bulls to buy one Dakota yearling that still would need his feet trimmed
What I am learning here that a pretty sale book and nice quick sounding auctioneer and slick sales manager actually makes the bull sire better calves or does it just make one feel better when they write a check for a 10,000 bull that is delivered free.

What in the heck does this mean??? "A Dakota yearling that would still need his feet trimmed." I don't know where you are buying at, but a foot trimmer at our place is the sale barn so he can get slaughtered.

FYI, you can buy bulls in the Dakotas, NE, MT that are cheap as well. The bulls that bring pretty good money and usually pretty dam good bulls from good outfits. The bulls that don't are usually not that good, underfed, a new breeder or come from someone who don't stand by his product. Their are exceptions, but that is probably the majority. Maybe the bulls you saw sell in MO are from one of the following.

 

[BRG]

I am still trying to pencil out why I should sell four bulls to buy one Dakota yearling that still would need his feet trimmed
What I am learning here that a pretty sale book and nice quick sounding auctioneer and slick sales manager actually makes the bull sire better calves or does it just make one feel better when they write a check for a 10,000 bull that is delivered free.

You are right on both accounts,something has to pay for that fancy bull sale catalogue and the booze after the sale,and some guys want the bragging rights at the bull sale for paying $10000 for a bull,but they are sure dreading that ride home in the truck with the Mrs on the way home.And just because a bull sells for $10000,that doesn't mean it actually did.

Our high selling bull sold to a commercial rancher in NE, sitting in the stands with his wife. No worry's for him on his way home.

 

[Mike]

Trimming a bull's feet is not always a bad thing.

In a perfect world, cattle hooves wear off at the exact same rate they grow.

But just being contained within a small paddock with restricted walking can precipitate hoof growth.

Longer pens with water on one end and the feed troughs on the other can ward off problems.

Knowing which ones have a genetic hoof problem and knowing which ones have an environmentally assisted problem is key. There is no one that knows a bull better than the person that raised him.

 

[Hay Feeder]

I have purchased 15 bulls from Nebraska North Dakota Minn and Kansas the past 10 years and non of them had feet problems
Three local breeders spent the ten figure bulls from Oklahoma and central Nebraska they had feet problems from bulls they bought

Please excuse me for the 10,000 figure I posted earlier I am really behind times it takes 12,000 to buy a Dakota bull this year.