Bulls- High forage ration?????

[katrina]

Why?

Because that's what a good cow ought'a do......... Raise a calf halfway or better to finish weight.

H, it's hard to express my tongue-in-cheekiness when I asked Denny "Why?", but that's how it was meant. For you or Denny or anyone to tell me what's a good cow and what ain't is like me telling you what's a good truck and what ain't. Simple - does it get the job done for you?

My cows don't wean 6 or 700lb calves, mind you my cows are 800-1200lbs and reared a little different than most. Does it mean my cows are no good? I don't think so. We have a program that works for us. Our cows wean more like 1/3-3/8 of finished weight, but do it at a very minimal cost. Those calves blossom on grass as yearlings and fatten well on pasture as 2yr olds weighing 1200lbs, then blossom into $2,500+ CDN as a 750lb food product. I'd say those girls get the job done just fine.

Different strokes for different folks. Not sayin', just sayin' bud. :wink:

:agree:

 

[Denny]

If your cows are worth a damn the calves should be weaning off the cow in the 600#to 700# range if they have proper nutrition.

Why?

Cos weaning weight equals profit don't ya know :wink:
It's easy PC you just need to get with the program - stock up on these 1100lb cows that can wean 54-63% of their weight. The country is full of them apparently - a by-product of "performance testing" your bulls to prove their suitability as terminal sires :lol: :lol:

And running light calves over another year does'nt cost anything does it.

You know I ran some 1/2 highlander cows wide muzzeled big bodied cows just like your pictures showed. Those cows consumed more forage than my no good black cows but what the hell those 400# hairy calves come november could'nt even cover the cows feed bill.I had them penned seperate when selling time came and those cows have ALOT of capacity and they fill it with forage.

The world is full of those type's of cattle that can raise calves 54 to 63% of their weight you just chose some that can't get it done. I'm accused of under feeding all the time so don't go painting my operation with your wide brush that the creep feeder are full of grain.As a matter of fact I have'nt fed 5 gallons of corn all winter to my cows or replacement heifers. They are getting corn silage that by the way was planted in june with NO commercial fertilizer so it's not exactly rolling with gold nuggets.That and some ground swamp grass mixed with it. I fed syrup for about a month to the cows but it's to muddy to continue with that and not cost effective.

You two guys who are meat jockeys can't say each cow is making all that profit. You are both adding value by further processing the end product. Your getting the all the money but also doing all the work from birth to death and beyond and basically the cow is making so much,then your selling grass,and silage,hay,processing fees sales cost's etc.etc.etc. You both act like that is all free and it is'nt. That would be like me saying well I built ten trailers this winter so my cows made another $20,000 thats bull I made another $20,000 working another aspect of my life. Don't go acting like one cow made $2500 on a fat steer take out all the cost's associated with it and tell the truth on the real profit.To run your calves over winter it's costing you at least 75 cents per day weather you admit it or not then the extra acreage for summer grassing the yearlings buy a pencil and write down all expences. And figure something for labor even if your are exploiting your kids because those kids grow up fast and if all you did was work the crap out of them they leave even faster.

 

[elwapo]

Dylan
We have turned in to the rain-forest here the past couple of years. I was up in the Hanna area yesterday. Looks like you have a start at least this year. There are some pretty hard grazed pastures in your area that will take some rest and rain to bring back.

 

[RobertMac]

Why?

Cos weaning weight equals profit don't ya know :wink:
It's easy PC you just need to get with the program - stock up on these 1100lb cows that can wean 54-63% of their weight. The country is full of them apparently - a by-product of "performance testing" your bulls to prove their suitability as terminal sires :lol: :lol:

And running light calves over another year does'nt cost anything does it.

You know I ran some 1/2 highlander cows wide muzzeled big bodied cows just like your pictures showed. Those cows consumed more forage than my no good black cows but what the hell those 400# hairy calves come november could'nt even cover the cows feed bill.I had them penned seperate when selling time came and those cows have ALOT of capacity and they fill it with forage.

The world is full of those type's of cattle that can raise calves 54 to 63% of their weight you just chose some that can't get it done. I'm accused of under feeding all the time so don't go painting my operation with your wide brush that the creep feeder are full of grain.As a matter of fact I have'nt fed 5 gallons of corn all winter to my cows or replacement heifers. They are getting corn silage that by the way was planted in june with NO commercial fertilizer so it's not exactly rolling with gold nuggets.That and some ground swamp grass mixed with it. I fed syrup for about a month to the cows but it's to muddy to continue with that and not cost effective.

You two guys who are meat jockeys can't say each cow is making all that profit. You are both adding value by further processing the end product. Your getting the all the money but also doing all the work from birth to death and beyond and basically the cow is making so much,then your selling grass,and silage,hay,processing fees sales cost's etc.etc.etc. You both act like that is all free and it is'nt. That would be like me saying well I built ten trailers this winter so my cows made another $20,000 thats bull I made another $20,000 working another aspect of my life. Don't go acting like one cow made $2500 on a fat steer take out all the cost's associated with it and tell the truth on the real profit.To run your calves over winter it's costing you at least 75 cents per day weather you admit it or not then the extra acreage for summer grassing the yearlings buy a pencil and write down all expences. And figure something for labor even if your are exploiting your kids because those kids grow up fast and if all you did was work the crap out of them they leave even faster.

I run about 100 head per year and spend $20,000-25,000 per year. I don't sell everything as meat and don't get quite that much, but know it's possible.

Dylan, I run about 50 head per quarter...different environments!!!!! That's why I always say to match the cow to the environment.

 

[PureCountry]

Why?

Cos weaning weight equals profit don't ya know :wink:
It's easy PC you just need to get with the program - stock up on these 1100lb cows that can wean 54-63% of their weight. The country is full of them apparently - a by-product of "performance testing" your bulls to prove their suitability as terminal sires :lol: :lol:

And running light calves over another year does'nt cost anything does it.

You know I ran some 1/2 highlander cows wide muzzeled big bodied cows just like your pictures showed. Those cows consumed more forage than my no good black cows but what the hell those 400# hairy calves come november could'nt even cover the cows feed bill.I had them penned seperate when selling time came and those cows have ALOT of capacity and they fill it with forage.

The world is full of those type's of cattle that can raise calves 54 to 63% of their weight you just chose some that can't get it done. I'm accused of under feeding all the time so don't go painting my operation with your wide brush that the creep feeder are full of grain.As a matter of fact I have'nt fed 5 gallons of corn all winter to my cows or replacement heifers. They are getting corn silage that by the way was planted in june with NO commercial fertilizer so it's not exactly rolling with gold nuggets.That and some ground swamp grass mixed with it. I fed syrup for about a month to the cows but it's to muddy to continue with that and not cost effective.

You two guys who are meat jockeys can't say each cow is making all that profit. You are both adding value by further processing the end product. Your getting the all the money but also doing all the work from birth to death and beyond and basically the cow is making so much,then your selling grass,and silage,hay,processing fees sales cost's etc.etc.etc. You both act like that is all free and it is'nt. That would be like me saying well I built ten trailers this winter so my cows made another $20,000 thats bull I made another $20,000 working another aspect of my life. Don't go acting like one cow made $2500 on a fat steer take out all the cost's associated with it and tell the truth on the real profit.To run your calves over winter it's costing you at least 75 cents per day weather you admit it or not then the extra acreage for summer grassing the yearlings buy a pencil and write down all expences. And figure something for labor even if your are exploiting your kids because those kids grow up fast and if all you did was work the crap out of them they leave even faster.

Who's painting with a wide brush?

I know your reply was directed at Grassfarmer, but I'd like to make an attempt to cool things down here, even though these heated debates keep things lively around here.

Denny, I'm well aware of what those backgrounded calves cost to winter - our winters are a little more severe than yours, so I know they don't get by on air and love. I also know what grass yearlings cost me. I know what they cost me in their 2nd winter, and as grass finished fats when they turn 2. To draw a correlation between my calculations and your trailer business is just false, their 2 different businesses altogether. You could technically break down our different enterprises if you really wanted to , but I don't, and that's my choice. Just as it's my choice to run the cows I do.

I have no idea which of my cows is eating more than the rest, be they the Highlands, the Galloways, the Angus or the crosses. As far as me choosing ones that can't get it done, I used to have cows that weaned 55-60% every year, and they cost more in our winters than the cows I have now, because there was a higher percentage of them open every year, plus late calves that didn't fit in, plus bigger cows that ON AVERAGE, eat more. I can't tell you how many pounds mine eat, but what I can tell you is they cost me around $400/year to run, depending on the year if we have to buy in feed or can get by on swath-grazing or stockpiled grass. The grassers cost another $300/yr to run until they finish at 2, for a total expense of around $1,000. Some years more, some less. $2500 potential profit is easy to figure out:

700lb carcass X $4/lb = $2,800. Sure we pay the cutting and wrapping and have more work into finishing animals ourselves - SO DO FEEDLOTS, and how much do you think they make? Some years our fats have cost us over $1200/hd, and with $400-800 in processing costs at the butcher, we're still making some decent money per animal, despite running around the country to a farmer's market once a week.

Our numbers work for us, I've never sat down with the pencil and paper and looked across at the wife and said, "Okay, let's make these numbers work for Denny."

Obviously you've got something figured out because you're still going, so good on ya. As for my numbers or choices, if you don't like 'em, don't bother letting me know, and I'll go on losing sleep over it. :wink:

 

[Grassfarmer]

The world is full of those type's of cattle that can raise calves 54 to 63% of their weight you just chose some that can't get it done.

I guess that would depend how old they are when you wean them too? In my experience the type that can wean this weight of calf (% of dam's bodyweight) are usually accompanied by high cow maintenance costs and high inputs. The ones that aren't tend to belong to folks that don't own a scale or have bulls to market.

 

[andybob]

Growing up with "veld reared" cattle, and having exported to severe environments in neighbouring countries without any of my cattle falling apart,
it came as a surprise when cattlemen in NC felt I should feed any bulls intended for sale. While they agreed in principle that cattle should be low maintenance, they were still unable to make the shift in thinking that cattle need irrigated pasture, bagged feed and winter hay (in NC?) when mine were grazing old cotton fields with only free choice minerals as a suppliment.
Cattle adapted to their environment don't need pampering, and profit is erroded by unneccesary costs. Here in the UK the native strain cattle on the estate cope throughout the year on pasture, and as we get little snow, hay is not neccessary, more a costly tradition on the part of the neighbours!

 

[cowboyup]

The world is full of those type's of cattle that can raise calves 54 to 63% of their weight you just chose some that can't get it done.

I guess that would depend how old they are when you wean them too? In my experience the type that can wean this weight of calf (% of dam's bodyweight) are usually accompanied by high cow maintenance costs and high inputs. The ones that aren't tend to belong to folks that don't own a scale or have bulls to market.

If your cows have any milk they should raise these kind of calves without all the extra feed costs. for the record I sale alot of hay so I know what my bales weigh and I winter on 25 lbs per cow per day jan. thru 1st of may most years this one a little less.

 

[Grassfarmer]

The world is full of those type's of cattle that can raise calves 54 to 63% of their weight you just chose some that can't get it done.

I guess that would depend how old they are when you wean them too? In my experience the type that can wean this weight of calf (% of dam's bodyweight) are usually accompanied by high cow maintenance costs and high inputs. The ones that aren't tend to belong to folks that don't own a scale or have bulls to market.

If your cows have any milk they should raise these kind of calves without all the extra feed costs. for the record I sale alot of hay so I know what my bales weigh and I winter on 25 lbs per cow per day jan. thru 1st of may most years this one a little less.

I was talking about a scale to weigh cattle rather than hay but I guess both are relevant. How heavy are your cows that can winter on 25lbs of hay and is this their sole ration or do they have grass to graze as well?

 

[Yanuck]

I guess that would depend how old they are when you wean them too? In my experience the type that can wean this weight of calf (% of dam's bodyweight) are usually accompanied by high cow maintenance costs and high inputs. The ones that aren't tend to belong to folks that don't own a scale or have bulls to market.

If your cows have any milk they should raise these kind of calves without all the extra feed costs. for the record I sale alot of hay so I know what my bales weigh and I winter on 25 lbs per cow per day jan. thru 1st of may most years this one a little less.

I was talking about a scale to weigh cattle rather than hay but I guess both are relevant. How heavy are your cows that can winter on 25lbs of hay and is this their sole ration or do they have grass to graze as well?

Gf are you saying that 25 lbs of hay isn't enough or its too much?

 

[Grassfarmer]

I wasn't saying either Yanuck - I was asking what weight his cows were and whether 25lbs of hay was their sole feed source.

 

[Yanuck]

I wasn't saying either Yanuck - I was asking what weight his cows were and whether 25lbs of hay was their sole feed source.

thats what we feed ours, no grass as we have 3 to 4 feet of snow,they have salt and mineral, they walk a mile or so for water, and we have some rather large "sisters"

 

[Grassfarmer]

I wasn't saying either Yanuck - I was asking what weight his cows were and whether 25lbs of hay was their sole feed source.

thats what we feed ours, no grass as we have 3 to 4 feet of snow,they have salt and mineral, they walk a mile or so for water, and we have some rather large "sisters"

How large and what quality of hay would be my next questions.

 

[Ben H]

This gave me an idea, how about some sort of "Angie's List" for bull buyers. A website where users can posts seedstock producers, then select ratings and write reviews on their experiences. Potential buyers could then use this resource as an aid in selecting a source to buy their bulls.

 

[lazy ace]

This gave me an idea, how about some sort of "Angie's List" for bull buyers. A website where users can posts seedstock producers, then select ratings and write reviews on their experiences. Potential buyers could then use this resource as an aid in selecting a source to buy their bulls.

It would work great but remember it would only be as good as the honesty and integrity of who has the complaints against the seed stock producer....I have heard of one commercial guy that uses a bull and complains about him so the seed stock producer told him to run him to his local auction market and gave him full credit and the commercial guy buys back the same bull for weigh up price. It hasn't happened to us but another seed stock producer warned us about it.

have a good one

lazy ace

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Cos weaning weight equals profit don't ya know :wink:
It's easy PC you just need to get with the program - stock up on these 1100lb cows that can wean 54-63% of their weight. The country is full of them apparently - a by-product of "performance testing" your bulls to prove their suitability as terminal sires :lol: :lol:

And running light calves over another year does'nt cost anything does it.

You know I ran some 1/2 highlander cows wide muzzeled big bodied cows just like your pictures showed. Those cows consumed more forage than my no good black cows but what the hell those 400# hairy calves come november could'nt even cover the cows feed bill.I had them penned seperate when selling time came and those cows have ALOT of capacity and they fill it with forage.

The world is full of those type's of cattle that can raise calves 54 to 63% of their weight you just chose some that can't get it done. I'm accused of under feeding all the time so don't go painting my operation with your wide brush that the creep feeder are full of grain.As a matter of fact I have'nt fed 5 gallons of corn all winter to my cows or replacement heifers. They are getting corn silage that by the way was planted in june with NO commercial fertilizer so it's not exactly rolling with gold nuggets.That and some ground swamp grass mixed with it. I fed syrup for about a month to the cows but it's to muddy to continue with that and not cost effective.

You two guys who are meat jockeys can't say each cow is making all that profit. You are both adding value by further processing the end product. Your getting the all the money but also doing all the work from birth to death and beyond and basically the cow is making so much,then your selling grass,and silage,hay,processing fees sales cost's etc.etc.etc. You both act like that is all free and it is'nt. That would be like me saying well I built ten trailers this winter so my cows made another $20,000 thats bull I made another $20,000 working another aspect of my life. Don't go acting like one cow made $2500 on a fat steer take out all the cost's associated with it and tell the truth on the real profit.To run your calves over winter it's costing you at least 75 cents per day weather you admit it or not then the extra acreage for summer grassing the yearlings buy a pencil and write down all expences. And figure something for labor even if your are exploiting your kids because those kids grow up fast and if all you did was work the crap out of them they leave even faster.

Who's painting with a wide brush?

I know your reply was directed at Grassfarmer, but I'd like to make an attempt to cool things down here, even though these heated debates keep things lively around here.

Denny, I'm well aware of what those backgrounded calves cost to winter - our winters are a little more severe than yours, so I know they don't get by on air and love. I also know what grass yearlings cost me. I know what they cost me in their 2nd winter, and as grass finished fats when they turn 2. To draw a correlation between my calculations and your trailer business is just false, their 2 different businesses altogether. You could technically break down our different enterprises if you really wanted to , but I don't, and that's my choice. Just as it's my choice to run the cows I do.

I have no idea which of my cows is eating more than the rest, be they the Highlands, the Galloways, the Angus or the crosses. As far as me choosing ones that can't get it done, I used to have cows that weaned 55-60% every year, and they cost more in our winters than the cows I have now, because there was a higher percentage of them open every year, plus late calves that didn't fit in, plus bigger cows that ON AVERAGE, eat more. I can't tell you how many pounds mine eat, but what I can tell you is they cost me around $400/year to run, depending on the year if we have to buy in feed or can get by on swath-grazing or stockpiled grass. The grassers cost another $300/yr to run until they finish at 2, for a total expense of around $1,000. Some years more, some less. $2500 potential profit is easy to figure out:

700lb carcass X $4/lb = $2,800. Sure we pay the cutting and wrapping and have more work into finishing animals ourselves - SO DO FEEDLOTS, and how much do you think they make? Some years our fats have cost us over $1200/hd, and with $400-800 in processing costs at the butcher, we're still making some decent money per animal, despite running around the country to a farmer's market once a week.

Our numbers work for us, I've never sat down with the pencil and paper and looked across at the wife and said, "Okay, let's make these numbers work for Denny."

Obviously you've got something figured out because you're still going, so good on ya. As for my numbers or choices, if you don't like 'em, don't bother letting me know, and I'll go on losing sleep over it. :wink:

PC just curious, are you selling the 700lb carcass on the rail or broken down by the piece?

Denny lord knows it is a lot of work being a meat jockey, our kids would of quit us long ago if they weren't being paid.

 

[Yanuck]

I wasn't saying either Yanuck - I was asking what weight his cows were and whether 25lbs of hay was their sole feed source.

thats what we feed ours, no grass as we have 3 to 4 feet of snow,they have salt and mineral, they walk a mile or so for water, and we have some rather large "sisters"

How large and what quality of hay would be my next questions.

we sold some culls awhile back that weighed 1700 and 1710, and we feed 1st and 2nd cutting alfalfa

 

[Northern Rancher]

Well i know Dylan's and Pure Country's kids personally pretty happy campers anytime I've seen them-most kids are more than happy to do some work-it's the foundation of self worth.

 

[cowboyup]

I guess that would depend how old they are when you wean them too? In my experience the type that can wean this weight of calf (% of dam's bodyweight) are usually accompanied by high cow maintenance costs and high inputs. The ones that aren't tend to belong to folks that don't own a scale or have bulls to market.

If your cows have any milk they should raise these kind of calves without all the extra feed costs. for the record I sale alot of hay so I know what my bales weigh and I winter on 25 lbs per cow per day jan. thru 1st of may most years this one a little less.

I was talking about a scale to weigh cattle rather than hay but I guess both are relevant. How heavy are your cows that can winter on 25lbs of hay and is this their sole ration or do they have grass to graze as well?

My cows average between 12 and 1400 lbs. I try to leave some grass for them to pick at. I have one winter pasture that I only run culls in during the summer that by this time is pretty short so am moving them over some summer pastures to give them a little extra. I didn't have my hay tested this year but in years past it has run between 117 and 158 in relative feed value with most toward the upper end. Until I got on here I never realized that anyone fed more than 25 lbs as that is what I learned is supposed to be enough to maintain body condition but then I try like hell to bring my cows into winter in good condition and try not to let them slip even if it means feeding them in december. still the rule of thumb is a ton and a half to winter them till grass.

 

[Northern Rancher]

If you feed 25 pounds of hay and cull your opens in a few years you'll have cows that can winter on 25 pounds of hay-it's almost like magic!!