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calf - no colostrum

Well the saga continues; last night when I went out to feed him he was actually standing up. I brought him a bottle of milk but he didn't want to suck. Wasn't sure if he was just played out or was full. Decided to tube him just to make sure he was full and made it through another night. Left the Vicks in the house - but I do think I would try it. Had a big simmie cross calf born last night 12:30 am. He took longer than I like to get up and about - especially when I could use some sleep. Hubby was home last night so he helped put baby under heat lamp - this morning him and momma were enjoying breakfast together. My little darling in the next pen over was looking pretty good. I gave him a bottle or milk and he did all the work himself this time. Breathing is still a little rough. Gave another shot of Nuflor IM. Went out just a awhile ago and gave electrolytes. He is better than yesterday but still a long way to go. Was wondering now when I should introduced a calf starter. Is it too much for tummy just yet? I have never raised a bottle baby before. Another new experience! Thanks for all the info! I think Dex would be great to have on hand do you know is it by precription only now.
 
Same as Nuflor, from your vet only. Dex is handy , but if I need to have an anti inflammatory on hand for calves it would be Predef . But you should go talk to your vet.

Things sound promising, I sure hope he pulls through. You can introduce calf starter anytime, he will eat it when he is ready . I would get a good dairy ration of around 20% and not pellets . If it contains decox, even better. Keep us updated on his progress and best of luck with him and the rest of your calving season.
 
hillsdown said:
strawking said:
Dex is a pain killer, don't think that would do anything in this case. Just keep doing what your doing and hope he makes it. Good luck.
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DEX is not a pain killer :roll: . It is a strong, steroidal anti inflammatory.
Dexamethasone is a potent synthetic member of the glucocorticoid class of steroid drugs. It acts as an anti-inflammatory and immunosuppressant. It is 20 to 30 times more potent than the naturally occurring hormone cortisol and 4 to 5 times more potent than prednisone.


Was wondering if you did an Im injection of nuflor or sub, as in these cases I really like to do IM, it hits them faster .

Vicks cannot hurt at all, not up the nose though, I would just do around the nose(sinus

cavities) and even the chest will not hurt as long as you are still keeping him heated.

Best of luck .
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An anti inflammatory is a pain killer. Either way im not sure what good it would be to a half starved calf.
 
Strawking a NSAID is usually just a pain killer, except for Metacam/Meloxicam, it has been found to have tumor reducing effects in dogs and is now aproved for use in cattle. However , steroidal anti imflams are much more than pain killers and have many many different uses . If you want just a straight pain killer, the go to drug is Anifen, besides the really hard ball drugs.

The reason to use an anti imflam with this calf is because of secondary infections setting in due to lack of colostrum and nutrition. The calf is symptomatic with Pneumonia, steroidal anti imflams work well with an antibiotic drug specifically made for pneumonia. Nuflor is the chosen goto drug in this case because it is a broad spectrum antibiotic, that will help combat any secondary infections . The steroidal anti inflammatory will reduce inflammation of the lungs allowing breathing to be easier as well as breaking up mucus ,it also does help stimulate appetite in most cases.

Anyways ,am not going to argue with you. Do what works best for you. Have a great night. :tiphat:
 
hillsdown said:
Strawking a NSAID is usually just a pain killer, except for Metacam/Meloxicam, it has been found to have tumor reducing effects in dogs and is now aproved for use in cattle. However , steroidal anti imflams are much more than pain killers and have many many different uses . If you want just a straight pain killer, the go to drug is Anifen, besides the really hard ball drugs.

The reason to use an anti imflam with this calf is because of secondary infections setting in due to lack of colostrum and nutrition. The calf is symptomatic with Pneumonia, steroidal anti imflams work well with an antibiotic drug specifically made for pneumonia. Nuflor is the chosen goto drug in this case because it is a broad spectrum antibiotic, that will help combat any secondary infections . The steroidal anti inflammatory will reduce inflammation of the lungs allowing breathing to be easier as well as breaking up mucus ,it also does help stimulate appetite in most cases.

Anyways ,am not going to argue with you. Do what works best for you. Have a great night. :tiphat:
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Never argue with a lady strawking, especially one that really does know what she is talking about. :D

We use about the same protocol Hillsdown. I don't give a calf that hasn't gotten colostrum much hope though. The few I've seen eventually died because of their impaired immune system. There is always a first though.
 
Well I'll have to apologize on this one wasn't trying to argue. Anyway I did find out today that 1 cc of vitamin B and 1 cc of dex given orally is an appetite stimulate. I guess re only thing I have ever been told to use dex for is pain relieved for back injuries and the like. Ibprofen is an anti inflammatory/ pain reliever same as dex. I have never heard of using it on pneumonia and im not sure what it would do and the 2 vets I asked did not either.
 
Well the calf was doing wonderfully; or so I thought. He was fetting up and meeting me at the gate reaty to eat until Saturday - went out for my evening feeding and he was out flat drank about half of his milk - with a lot of effort. His breathing sounded rattled to me. Decided to tube with the rest of the milk to make sure he got enough and gave a shot of Nuflor again. Next morning he seemed a little better however has trouble when getting up and standing seems like his front ankles have no strength. Gave him so Selenium E. I know this is going to be an uphill battle for us but if he doesn't want to give up then I won't either. Now I think he may have joint ill. His navel feels fine, dried up not enlarged or hard but his front knees look enlarged. So I now need to make the decision am I in this for the long haul or is it cruel to continue. I did give a shot of LA 200. Otherwise calving has been going well. Love watching them run and buck in the pasture. Best part of spring in my books. Thanks for all the input!!!
 
I hope its not navel ill. If it is, you'll have to be really agressive to defeat it. This calf will need antibiotics for 10 days straight. That's the only
way we ever saved a calf that had navel ill. We doctored them wrong
for a long time. The bacteria goes into the joints because the
circulation is poor there; it takes a lot of consistent doctoring to kill the bacteria.
Anyway, that's what we found. Navel ill is horrible.

Good luck!!
 
What antibiotics did you use? I know this could be a death sentence but there is still so much life in those big eyes I just can't stop helping him! I am willing to put in the time if I need to. I did read about someone that treated a calf for 40 days and it did recover. True or not don't know, can't always believe everything you read!
 
It was plain penecillin. Not the long-lasting. 10 cc for 5 days,
then 5 cc for 5 days. It worked and it's the only thing that did.

You can use Nuflor or the like, but it will cost more than regular
pen. Pesistence is the key. This calf will most likely have
a compromised immune system all his life, sad to say. :cry:

After that long on antibiotics, I would recommend giving
him some probiotic.
 
Yeah I prefer not to use Nuflor for a long period of time. I think I will try to keep using the LA - 200 unless someone has a better option. A probiotic is a good idea! Thanks. Somedays this is just too hard on the heart! I'll update and let you know how it goes!
 
If it is joint ill (infection in the joints, often getting there via the blood stream from navel ill) then penicillin won't get rid of it. Penicillin doesn't get into joints really easily. Penicillin also won't work if there is a lot of pus in a pocket, which you may have in those joints. It also only gets one classification of bacteria - gram +ve - and bacteria like E. coli are the other kind - gram -ve. Nuflor is a broad spectrum that gets both classifications, plus it gets into places like the eye and the brain and the joints like a lot of other antibiotics don't get. Plus it works in the presence of pus. If you are going to treat him - kill or cure - treat him with what will give him the best chance to make it. LA and Penicillin just aren't the right ones for this job usually. All that said, it sure wouldn't hurt to call your vet and ask what they recommend using these days. They may have been treating some of these or done post mortems on others and know which antibiotics are working the best in your area.
 
I called a vet and he re-affirmed what I had said originally.
And excuse me, but Penecillin (regular, not long-lasting) does work in these instances.
Believe me, I know. The voice of experience in other words.

Not to say Nuflor isn't good. It is.

But like hillsdown said, I'm not going to argue with you about
it. Have a nice night.
 
aspen said:
Nuflor is a broad spectrum that gets both classifications, plus it gets into places like the eye and the brain and the joints like a lot of other antibiotics don't get.
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According to the vet we use and put quite a bit of faith in, both Nuflor and Pen have a molecular structure that is physically too big to get hard to reach places, specifically the eyes. That's where good old Triveteran came to our rescue lately with a pair of blind calves that we had been treating with Pen and Nuflor. It took 2 days to cure them with the Tri and one other he prescribed which I have now conveniently forgotten the name of :?
According to him, Nuflor is falling out of favour as it has been used extensively for enough years that cattle in general are developing a resistance to it. Hopefully not the case here because we only use it extremely rarely, but I wouldn't want to say for sure.
 
I have only had one case of naval ill and it led to septicemia meningitis which I am sure this calf does not have.

Talk to your vet, Nuflor does work but so does trivetrin as well as excenel. Proper dosage is the key , and in most cases of excenel and trivet we do not hit them hard enough. (Meaning we do not give a proper loading doseage)
FH is right about Pennicillin, NOT a LA pen ,but the regular short acting white pennicillin has been very responsive to joint ill. But you really need to talk to your vet and get on a plan. Any treatment you choose, incorporate an anti inflammatory with it ;we usually do 3 days on 2 days off and then repeat . I would use Predef or Banamine, 1 cc of predef IM or 1 cc of banamine IV. The successful cases I have heard and read about took a minimum 3 weeks every day of a shot of pen.

Best of luck, it sounds like both of you want to fight through this.

Can you post a pic of him at all ?
 
We get some navel ill every year. Practice has made it easier to detect by looking at every calf's navel and how they are standing when we do checks. Trivetrin for 3 to 5 days and follow up with LA until the swelling in the navel is gone. Trivetrin will burn up kidneys if used too long. About a cc of iodine injected into the actual pus pocket in the navel works well in conjunction.

Have only had one that made it to the joints and that was years ago.
 
Most often not to hard to diagnose navel ill if you are looking for it. If there is still a stump from the umbilical pull it off. If not the navel will usually be wet. Squeeze it between your fingers and smell your hand. It will have that smell of death that you can't get washed off.
Always get a temp. It will be the first thing the vet asks for. High temp means infection, low temp means your losing him. Calves that have been cold seem to relapse easily and need to be warmed up. If your calf is down I'm betting low temp. Sometimes you can tell just by putting your finger in their mouth.
Good luck!
 
Had one few years ago joints actually creaked when walking. Put em on
trivet.for 3 days than pen. for a week .had to use banamine every day.was to painfull for em to get up and nurse.Did.nt ever have to feed em. Amazing thing is. cured em.walked on the truck year later fat at 1420 lbs. smetimes seems no matter what we do some will survive
 

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