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Cattle pictures

OK Yanuck, it was a poor choice of words I used to paraphrase BMR, my point stands though. This old cow of mine spent her first 15 years grazing in the rough Alberta foothills, grazing through until February almost every year. I don't think the type of grazing they are on really affects longevity to any great degree - and what constitutes the "toughest" type of environment is up for debate anyway.
 
Big Muddy rancher said:
Yanuck said:
she looks to be in great shape GF. I can't speak for BMR, but I took his comment to mean that given the different terrain and grass type between the 2 of yours plays a big factor in a cows longetivity, I doubt there are many 23 year old cows in the Nebraska Sandhills at Soapweeds or in the Utah desert at Leanin'H's either......but that's just how I read it :wink: !
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You got it Yanuck.
I was wondering at what age did she lose her teeth?
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That certainly goes for eastern Oregon too!! We've got 14 and 15 yr old cows but not many. Lot's of times by mid summer are wishing we hadn't kept them 'one more year'. Longevity(sp?) is certainly important and I sure keep heifers/bulls out of the old girls whenever I can.
 
Oh, last time I checked she still had them all - up till last year I had 3 of these old cows here that were over 20 and they all had good teeth. The fact we graze them on old, low quality grass through deep snow when it's -30C would show up any with bad teeth pretty quick. There are no special treats for the oldies here.
 
Grassfarmer said:
Oh, last time I checked she still had them all - up till last year I had 3 of these old cows here that were over 20 and they all had good teeth. The fact we graze them on old, low quality grass through deep snow when it's -30C would show up any with bad teeth pretty quick. There are no special treats for the oldies here.
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In this area we have them losing teeth usually from 10 onward. More abrasive soils shorter grass. A lot of the ranches around Mankota would ship all their 10 year old cows. A bargain for somebody that had to feed for the winter.
 
We have soft grass here. If a cow was born here I have known of lots of them to see 20 and still have all their teeth.
You cannot bring an old cow here from another area and expect her to last very long.
 
Grassfarmer said:
WyomingRancher, We're maybe debating 2 different points. I wouldn't consider a cow working on less than 4 teats as cosmetic either - that is obviously a serious problem.

But you said you thought she may have spoiled that quarter :???:

I'm up for a challenge though - lets see some pictures of other cows that are 17 or older and have perfect udders. :-)
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Here you go, I took her picture special this morning, just for this post :D . No, she's not over 17, she's just a calf at 15 this year :lol: . I suspect the only change in her udder from here on out would be a continual decline in milk production. I feel if she was going to develop malformed teats, it would've happened years ago, when she milked the heaviest, in her prime. Perhaps the old girl would make it to twenty, I won't know since she'll likely be culled this fall to make room for a younger female. Longevity is important to me, but only to a point. In my situation, the older cows start requiring more maintenance and yield less product.

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I think it partly boils down to how you market your cattle. I market the calves by the pound to a buyer in the fall. Weight and uniformity matter, and light enders get cut back. According to my cow computer program, my older cow's calves averaged 30 pounds lighter than cows in their prime. These older cows won't become more productive, and obviously since I market by the pound, this doesn't help my bottom line. I'd rather run a younger, more productive cow in my situation, and hope she pays for herself and starts making a profit. Also, in my case, I have improved the genetics, so keeping young females has been an asset. I agree though, new genetics doesn't always mean better :wink: .

Perhaps in a situation where you're feeding the cattle out yourself, it doesn't matter what the cow's calf weighs in the fall. I envy this set-up since you're more in the driver's seat, and can direct market the product you sell. Someday I may even try that market, but for now my calves will go to a buyer who is set-up to either turn them onto grass or put them into their feedlot and finish them on feed they raise themselves. The past two years they've sold them into the export market. In the future this can change and proabably will, but it's where we're targeting for now.

I've really enjoyed this post because it has me thinking about true cow productivity. GF, you definitely have functional cattle, and the body type I like. I've been trying hard to get that easy-fleshing ability complimented with good production and it looks like you've got it :D . The best part about Ranchers is learning what other producers value, and why they manage the way they do.
 
GF- i tend to agree with the how do you measure best. I guess I can come to grips with the fact that you are convinced that the 23 year old is the best cow on the place (I would still argue that she is just the most proven). I suspect her 7 year old daughter may be your favourite in 15 years or so.
I also agree that bigger EPDs don't mean better. They are just a tool. We look at the EPD that work at our place and buy more cattle the same. No more, no less.
I think you can breed in longevity, but have to be careful at what cost (just like everything else). The other challenge with longevity is that it is lowly heritable and highly suceptible to luck. For example I am sure we have culled heifers in the past that were open, but it may have been the bull came down with footrot the same day they were cycling. She may have been my best cow or not, but was never given the chance. No apologies for that, just the way it is. A cows genetics are fixed at conception, whether or not she gets a chance to prove them out is another story.
Where I am coming from is that one cow does not a cowherd make. I know we don't make progress every year at home (we screw up too), but I have to believe that as a bunch, the heifers in utero right now are the best we have ever raised for what we do at home. They won't win ribbons, or the EPD race, or otherwise, but I know they are heading in the right direction for where we want to go.
I guess I am still arguing most proven vs. best genetics. :D
 
WyomingRancher, I can see your point about cows producing lower weaning weight calves as they age. You quote 30lbs difference under your conditions - another number worth calculating is the additional cost of bringing young cattle into your herd. Even if you rear your own heifers the cost incurred between weaning that calf and selling her first calf are substantial - for a start you have to keep her for an extra year compared to holding onto an old bred cow. Cost of a year's keep with no production? how does $300 + sound? I think it will be on the low side for anyone that experiences winter where they live. Plus for every new heifer you keep there is a chance she will be open, a poor performer and in any case she will likely turn in a lighter calf her first year. I find we always have some cattle fall out of the system as youngsters - don't breed back after their first or second calf etc. but if they get past about 5 years they seem good until 10 when age catches up with some, arthritis with others. The ones that stay the course past 10 can last us anywhere from 12-20+ but we take every year as it comes after 12. I find that unless they turn in an absolute light weight calf the older cow retained in the herd will bring more pure profit than introducing a youngster. 30lbs lighter calf isn't a big price to pay in my book to save $300+ a year replacing her.
I to enjoy the debate - it helps me to be challenged about my opinions and I'm always learning.
Thanks for your old cow picture - yes she looks like a good enough udder for her age.
Below is a better picture of my old cow - taken when she was 21, it shows the true shape of her udder. The red cow with the white underline in front of her was 20 at that time - off the same sire so the udder is very similar. I still have this cow also.
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A few thoughts come to mind. I didn't realize your Luings were such heavy milkers, but I guess if they can inherit the longevity and toughness of the Highland, they can certianly inherit the milking ability from their Shorthorn ancestors. That's exactly what I think when I see those udders - Shorthorn milking power. And with added milk, comes the never ending struggle of udder problems, in any breed. It's just one more thing we all work on in our programs.

As for longevity, I feel it can only come from letting Mother Nature do the culling, and me doing the selecting. Mother Nature will show me all the open females. She'll also bring out the ones with poor feet and legs, since they'll come up lame or have problems of various types due to their inferior structure. She'll show us who can survive on grass alone through a winter seeing 50+ days of -30 or colder, while raising a calf and carrying her next one.

When all that is done, I'll start selecting. If I try to only use bulls from cows that are at least 15, I stand a greater chance of breeding that longevity into my herd, than if I use a bull out of a first calf heifer. With the heifer, she may be culled for one reason or another before seeing her 5th birthday, and then what have we selected for by using her son? If I try to only select replacement heifers from my oldest cows, I am increasing my chances of breeding in longevity again.

And this is not single trait selection. Consider all the other things I'm proposing that we select for first, and it is far from single trait. I'm just making a long-winded point that I firmly believe we can breed longevity into our cattle. It will not happen quickly, but ought to be trying. After all, did Longhorns and Highlands not develop over a few hundred/thousand years in some very rugged terrain? When no one was around to feed them or baby them, pull stuck calves or treat lameness and injuries, the strong survived and adapted. The weak, well, they died, and lucky for Grassfarmer, they didn't get the chance to propogate their inferior genetics. Isn't evolution grand?
 
Just had to throw up something of my own. This cow is coming 13, and right now she looks as good as the day this pic was taken last summer. The bull calf hiding behind her, is still on her and nursing, and he's almost as tall as she is. It's cows like this that make me think we can breed longevity in. I have a full sister to her that's coming 12, and about 20 paternal sisters over the age of 10. When they can live to a ripe old age is one thing, to produce year in-year out to a ripe old age is actually an accomplishment.

Red_Cows_Sept_14th_010_Large_.jpg
 
Great discussion! :D I think we have a new topic for the weekly photo contest... "Who's your best old cow" :lol: .

Seriously though, you've made good points, and I agree it's a risk and expense replacing an old cow with a younger, unproven one. There are no guarantees she'll ever break even, let alone make a profit. In my case, where I've been able to improve my herd by keeping replacements, it's the right direction for me to maintain (did I mention I've been cleaning up udders among other things... don't worry, I won't drag you through that explanation again :lol: ). Just like dollar cost averaging in investing, I believe there's a value in investing young cattle into your herd yearly.

You have to first build a herd before you can fine tune it, and this herd is still in the building phase. I'm getting close to achieving what I think is "good", the true art and challenge will be in maintaining it :wink: . I believe that is the mark of a true cattlemen, the ability to maintain a good herd, and I really don't know if I've got the eye or talent to do it... I hope so, and with some luck, I'll be able to find out!

Let's have this discussion again in 2016 when my cows which have genetics I feel are "good" turn 12. Maybe if they are still sound and keeping up with their younger herdmates, I'll better appreciate where you're coming from.
 
By the time most of my cows hit 12 or 13 their hips become so arthritic that most of them are culled for that reason. A 23 year old cow is a rare thing indeed, pretty cool if you ask me. Are angus cows more suseptible to arthritis or do you think or is it just my genetics?

Another thing I have always wondered is if an old cow weans a smaller calf because her milk production drops won't that calf have a better chance for greater compensatory gain in the feed lot? Isn't that why buyers of feeder cattle prefer light green calves that will really go to town when they hit grass or the feedlot? Maybe I'm wrong but it seems logical to me anyway.
 
Big Muddy rancher said:
In this area we have them losing teeth usually from 10 onward. More abrasive soils shorter grass. A lot of the ranches around Mankota would ship all their 10 year old cows. A bargain for somebody that had to feed for the winter.
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That is the truth. Most of the bigger ranchers around here cull everything at 10 years old. Sandy soils and short grass = lots of tooth damage. They don't pregcheck them, the simply go to town for a slaughter sale. Most years they are bought by someone to calve out and maybe get a few more calves out of most of the. They do well enough when fed for the winter.

We mouthed all our older cows last spring, had a drought, and had to decide somehow which cows to cull. Here are our results.

Out of 13 - 7/8 year old cows, 1 had very worn teeth
Out of 13 - 9 year old cows, 4 had missing or very worn teeth
Out of 8 - 10 year old cows, 2 had missing or very worn teeth
Out of 8 - 11 year old cows, 6 had missing or very worn teeth
And 2 - 11+ year old cows had no teeth left at all.
 
randiliana said:
That is the truth. Most of the bigger ranchers around here cull everything at 10 years old. Sandy soils and short grass = lots of tooth damage. They don't pregcheck them, the simply go to town for a slaughter sale. Most years they are bought by someone to calve out and maybe get a few more calves out of most of the. They do well enough when fed for the winter.

We mouthed all our older cows last spring, had a drought, and had to decide somehow which cows to cull. Here are our results.

Out of 13 - 7/8 year old cows, 1 had very worn teeth
Out of 13 - 9 year old cows, 4 had missing or very worn teeth
Out of 8 - 10 year old cows, 2 had missing or very worn teeth
Out of 8 - 11 year old cows, 6 had missing or very worn teeth
And 2 - 11+ year old cows had no teeth left at all.
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We generally keep our older cows as long as their production isn't dropping too much. Last year we had 5 older cows that went from raising 600+ lb calves to under 500 lb calves. And that was after we culled the ones with poor teeth. BW is a good indicator of production, as in if her BW is a lot below what she usually has, chances are her calf will wean the same way.
 
Well I am going to have to raise my bar. Only one 15 year old left as my oldest cow. Lots of 10 to 13s. What would those of you with older cows expect as a norm?
 
We try to keep the herd as young as we can. There are a few 12-13 yr olds here, but it has always seemed the best policy to move them on while things are still going good with them, and they can command the best price at the sale ring.
It is easier to do this because we keep our own replacements, so at any one time nearly 1/3 of the herd has had 2 calves or less. I think there is a bit of a price to pay regarding weaning weights but I feel that this gives us a couple of different options depending on the year and the markets. Theoreticaly we could sell all of our calves for a couple of years and maintain a young enough herd, or we could step into a position where we keep all our calves (steers and heifers) over winter to grass them the following summer.
I guess all I'm trying to say is that keeping your herd young gives you options you may not have if you allow your herds age to creep up.
 
I think the discussion also relates to fixed costs. It may cost $300 plus to keep a replacement and there is the issue of a lost year of production. Everyone also has to keep in mind pounds sold over fixed costs. If an outfit can run 100 cows and sells weaned calves, the total weaning weight produced by those cows has to cover variable and fixed costs. I think that is where the age vs. production argument has to meet for most ranches. We have a relatively young cowherd, but that is based on a concious decision making process. We keep replacements out of 3 year olds and younger (generally speaking), and use older cows in a more terminal type of program. When a cow is proven (produced well for many years) we are more likely to look at her daughters for replacement production, but generally we deal with groups of cows, rather than individuals.
I do believe in breeding for longevity (longer lived cows mean more terminal calves and lower replacement cost for us too), but I am content to let others bear the cost of proving out sires by keeping daughters. that said, we do have a couple of "good old girls" in our young cow group.
I also believe that there are some lines of cattle that are prone to various types of breakdown (including arthritis). We have noted specific bloodlines that are more prone to footrot, arthritis, etc. at our place.
 
PureCountry said:
Are we seeing a trend here yet? Everyone's situations are different, so everyone's system is tailored to what best suits their situation. We may not understand it, but if someone is happy with their system, so be it.
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nicely said PC :agree: hey I was going to ask....can I post your picture with everyone elses?
 

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