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Comment on this scenario

C

cutterone

Well-known member
Joined
May 10, 2006
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484
Location
Frankfort, Indiana
Comment on this scenario
You have been working with your present Vet for about 5 years and have been following his protocols in vaccination, worming, bull testing, breeding, etc. with mostly positive satisfaction. At the same time your normal N2 and semen supplier retired and the route was taken over by another individual. You're not very satisfied with his service but have little choice as there are not other dealers in the area.
Last spring you decided to use up a lot of the embryos you have in your tank and make arrangements with your vet to do the work. You follow his protocols and drugs which match what you have done in the past, set up your recips, and nearly live with the cows checking almost hourly for heats and report them to your vet.
As you start taking them to him to do the ETs he suggests that you leave your tank to save hauling it in each time and you agree.
You take your recips as they are correct, have them checked and if they are, per your vet, he transfers 9 embryos in individuals and all come back in heat. In addition you had him AI a couple and they also come into heat.
In your dissatisfaction you call and schedule an appointment to discuss your dissatisfaction of the breeding results. At the meeting you present the facts and even some disappointing results of past breeding performed by him. You explain that you have spent a couple thousand dollars in embryos, semen, drugs, and vet costs and want an explanation of why the poor results as well as a plan going forward. His response was that you were free to take your business elsewhere and your reply was that he was not getting off that easy and expect him to get this right and your animals bred. You could go to another vet and pay the additional plus the loss of the first go round but feel it's up to him to make it right. The outcome of the meeting was that you would set your animals up again or wait for natural heats, bring them in, and he would furnish semen and rebreed the cows.
In the meantime your N2 dealer comes to service the tank and you explain that it is now stored with your vet and he is to service it there. You have 3 conversations with him over the winter as he wants to know if it is still there in which you reply..Yes.
This week you go to your vets for some work to be preformed and at the end of the work and getting ready to load out and leave the vet says you might as well take your tank and says "by the way it's dry as your dealer has not filled it" In absolute astonishment and a minor heart attach, you ask… "1. Why didn't you let me know and 2. why didn't you have it serviced with your other tanks and bill me?" Answer: " I tried calling you a couple times but didn't get you." You have an answering machine and you know it's a LIE.
You are sooo mad you know better than utter the thoughts in your head and go home wondering what just happened. At home you open the dry tank and take inventory….
122 straws of semen and 15 embryos all in ruin.

What do you do?
 
Cutterone, accountability is sometimes short in our society today. I would start with a letter in regards to your vet to your State Vet Medical Association asking them what they recommend. Consider CC'ing others like your State Ag Minister and industry associations. Nothing like a little political pressure to provide clarity for the vet involved.

On the N2 issue maybe there is a business opportunity there??
 
per said:
Cutterone, accountability is sometimes short in our society today. I would start with a letter in regards to your vet to your State Vet Medical Association asking them what they recommend. Consider CC'ing others like your State Ag Minister and industry associations. Nothing like a little political pressure to provide clarity for the vet involved.

On the N2 issue maybe there is a business opportunity there??
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:agree:
 
I was so mad I could have went "postal" and had to leave before I did.
I don't know how this will play out liability wise but 137 potential pregnacies could have a value with a lot of zeros. Someone is going to pay!
 
You are away better person than I would of been! :D I'm afraid I would of had to say something...Prolly regretting it later on.. :? Trust me it'll all work out.. I've seen it a million times... :tiphat:
 
I also would be very upset. But I haven't found anyone who will gaurentee embryo transfer or ai rates. So realistically what are you going to accomplish. Also if I had spent money on embryos and stuff and none got bred what makes you think he would get them bred the second time? As I said I would be hot as well but I have learned in my short business career that getting in a p!ssing contest very rarely acomplish anything. I would have just taken my business elsewhere when he said that to begin with after a 0 bred rate the first go around.
 
We had several n2 dealers quit, but only after a registered letter that they were quitting. I would corner the service person to see why it was not serviced, and I bet you learn a lot from that conversation.
A few years back, a tank went dry where I was breeding cows, the service man just didn't see it on a different side of a small lab, nitrogen co made it all good, they had insurance.
 
What was the percentage of failure rate and how does that compare to industry norms?

Having said that, any "professional" who tells me I have the option to take my business elsewhere, just lost a customer.
 
Soapweed said:
In all the livestock publications, and ads heard on the radio, there seems to be a mulitude of bulls seeking employment.
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I agree. I didn't used to but unless you are raising seed stock worth tens of thousands of dollars your not gaining a whole lot in my opinion for all the time and effort to ai everything. Also some of the problems I have run into with ai heifers is when only half get stuck the other half all come into heat the same time. It's hard for a bull to check twice as many animals checked and breed his quota in a couple days. So if they get strung out you probly would be better off just buying one extra bull and letting them go about it a few every day.
 
Our AI rate has ran about 70% in the past and with my embryoligist and previous vet we have gotten as high as 90% but I also understand that is not the norm. My feeling was that his transfer rate was so poor we had no choice but to AI at that point and had to lease a bull to cover my bases. 0% is just not acceptable but that is not my complaint at this time. My tank and contents were in his care and custody and my N2 rep was responsible for maintaining it. That was pure negligence on both their parts.
 
cutterone said:
Our AI rate has ran about 70% in the past and with my embryoligist and previous vet we have gotten as high as 90% but I also understand that is not the norm. My feeling was that his transfer rate was so poor we had no choice but to AI at that point and had to lease a bull to cover my bases. 0% is just not acceptable but that is not my complaint at this time. My tank and contents were in his care and custody and my N2 rep was responsible for maintaining it. That was pure negligence on both their parts.
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They should both have liability insurance. :wink:

I'm with Soap on this one though, A bull only has one job to think of and will work 24/7.
 
Can i play devil's advocate for a second? You chew out the vet cause he didnt do very well getting heifers to settle and embroy implants to catch. Then AFTER he tells you to go to find a new vet (implying #1- he either thinks he did everything right while A.I.ing and ETing and is pissed you called his work into question, or #2- he just doesnt give a rip) you decide to keep working with him. :? You already arent happy with the new semen guy and his lack of "service" but keep using him as well. :? And want him to fill your tank which is still at the vet's place. :? I have several questions for ya.....

#1- How did the vet's second AI and ET work turn out? You didnt mention if he batted a thousand on the next try?

#2- Is your vet really that slow, work wise, that he can keep track of the semen in a tank that isnt his?

#3-You didnt like the service from the semen tank tech, but kept using him anyway?

While the vet would of lost me as a customer if i wasnt happy with his work or attitude, i am not sure you dont shoulder some of the blame for the tank going dry. If i were you i'd find a new N2 and semen supplier and shop for a new vet. If folks don't meet your criteria for what you need, why keep using them? :???: As far as the ruined semen and embryos, i can't say what is the right thing. Semen tank guy, you, then vet in order of accountability. But either insure tank and it's valuable contents or have a signed contract with either vet or semen supplier to be sure they have that responsibility. Without that, you are up a creek without a canoe. :?

I am not a vet or a semen rep. They sure did screw things up. Sorry it turned out the ya it did for ya. Just my comments and they are usually wrong.
 
Don't know your exact situation with your n2 rep. But everyone I've met wants you to leave your tank where it's most convenient for them. If you had a large amount of dollars worth in it I would have kept it at home unless you were breeding. May be negligent but I don't believe you will get Anything from either unless you had a contract for them to keep it up. Or had an insurance policy on it yourself.
 
I have always in the past kept my tank in the house and transported it when needed. I only left it at his request. Second they have a row of tanks at their facility that are customers as well as their own and are serviced. My rep also covers their area but not their facility.
My complaint with him is that he is young and has had some issues with others but I'm also out of any other rep's areas and as I am slowing down and out of the registered side and downsizing and my plan was to use up my embryos and am developing a young bull for future.
Don't know, maybe I'm full of it but if I had your tank in my house I sure wouldn't let it go dry.
To answer your question about his 2nd try - so far 1 out of 4 is negitave and no he will not ever breed any of my cattle again even if I were not to go to a bull.
 
cutterone said:
I have always in the past kept my tank in the house and transported it when needed. I only left it at his request. Second they have a row of tanks at their facility that are customers as well as their own and are serviced. My rep also covers their area but not their facility.
My complaint with him is that he is young and has had some issues with others but I'm also out of any other rep's areas and as I am slowing down and out of the registered side and downsizing and my plan was to use up my embryos and am developing a young bull for future.
Don't know, maybe I'm full of it but if I had your tank in my house I sure wouldn't let it go dry.
To answer your question about his 2nd try - so far 1 out of 4 is negitave and no he will not ever breed any of my cattle again even if I were not to go to a bull.
Click to expand...

I completely get your frustration Cutterone. And wish it had turned out different for ya. I have no doubt, you would take great care of my tank if i'd left it at your place. I'd do the same here. Sadly thesedays, very few folks give a rip. :? I wasnt trying to imply you screwed up. I was just trying to look at both sides. But i side with you. I'd find a new vet and semen rep pretty dang skippy. Good luck
 
Sorry for your loss, I have a a lot invested in my tank and it is always a concern of it going dry. My first thought of a rate of 0 for 9 is either the vet is not doing something right or the eggs have already warmed up somewhere along the way. It is too late now but our embryo vet has thawed them under a microscope before to check viability. Sounds like a all around bad deal.
 
Hate to hear that kind of situation for anyone. Some people go into business thinking they can just do a job and not understanding that they will have to be a people person more importantly. It is also very easy to get burnt out having to deal with the public. Think if you had to be nice to every hoodlum you meet each day.

If you truly feel that it was either the vet's or the tech's responsibility under the terms of your arrangement, then your best course of action is to contact an attorney and at minimum talk it over with them. Sometimes a strongly worded letter can have an impact on a situation.

Saying that, it would end any relationship you have with either company- which may not be a bad thing. Secondly, you may just spend more money with no recovery. And third, I detest most attorneys and don't like feeding them or the practice of law suits. Fourth, I detest most attorneys.

Tough loss.

Edit- To be fair and balanced I intended to add: I don't like working by myself.... I have a hard time trying to find the person that makes all the big mistakes.
 

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