COOL discounting Canadian cattle?

[Sandhusker]

Alberta invited them. And the reason for that was.... The U.S. government pretended to sign a trade agreement that they "said" they would honour, that would provide a market for this expanded beef production. After all, when we signed on with you we gave up a lot of grain programs, which made exporting grain from this country a money loser, and we needed some way to survive. Too bad we had to believe your country was being honest.

And RCALF aided and abetted by doing whatever they could to keep the border closed.

The US producer was not our problem on an individual basis, just as we are not your problem on an individual basis.

What did a trade agreement have to do with the demise of the Canadian packing industry? I would argue that your own goverment's actions and/or inactions is where the blame lies. The never should of allowed the takeover and concentration of your packing industry.

R-CALF actions would of helped you had they succeeded in getting private BSE testing through. That would of opened up markets in Asia that we lost.

R-CALF pushing COOL could also be your saving grace if you use it. Do you have a better plan to stem the tide of the South American beef that that the multi-nationals want to flood our countries with? What are you going to do when you're offered half of what you need for your cattle because the packer can get all the S. A. beef they want and the consumer has no preference other than "Beef". What are you going to do or wish you had done?

I've said time and time and again that R-CALF doesn't regard Canadian producers as the problem or the enemy.

[

 

[Tex]

Alberta invited them. And the reason for that was.... The U.S. government pretended to sign a trade agreement that they "said" they would honour, that would provide a market for this expanded beef production. After all, when we signed on with you we gave up a lot of grain programs, which made exporting grain from this country a money loser, and we needed some way to survive. Too bad we had to believe your country was being honest.

And RCALF aided and abetted by doing whatever they could to keep the border closed.

The US producer was not our problem on an individual basis, just as we are not your problem on an individual basis.

Tyson knew there was a bse "taint" on Canadian cattle and they also knew that they could use that "taint" to buy cattle on the cheap and then sell them undiscounted in the U.S. We had politicians who let them do it on both sides of the border and even had a Texas A&M University prof. go an make up an economic analysis that totally missed the question.

That captive supply became more captive with the cow market almost vanishing and Tyson used it to milk profits out of the Canadian producers at the expense of the market as a whole but especially the Canadians who were stuck with bse "tainted" meat (tainted in the meaning of the scare, not necessarily all meat having bse).

You are right that there is a lot of dishonesty here, Kato, but it was business as usual for these global companies and their hired crooks.

Tex

 

[PORKER]

Other Country's and other MEATS COOL laws

UK: Pig industry endorses EU labelling rules 15 Jan 2010
Proposed changes to European food labelling rules are welcomed by English pig producers.

The new rules will require manufacturers that use the country of origin labels on meat products to indicate where the animal was born, reared and slaughtered – not just where it was processed.

BPEX, representing English pig farmers, fully supports the EU legislative proposals which will build on the significant progress already made in the UK pig meat supply chain. A new voluntary code of practice on the labelling of pork and pork products is now being drawn up following agreement by pig producers, processors, major food retailers, and the food service sector.


BPEX director Mick Sloyan said: "English pig farmers have long fought for clearer labelling to provide unambiguous consumer choice and confidence. The voluntary code and forthcoming EU rules will reassure consumers that, when they buy Quality Standard Mark pork and pork products, they will have been produced to very high welfare and exacting quality standards. It clearly differentiates QSM pig producers from other pork producing countries."


Displaying origin
When introduced, companies who have signed up to the voluntary code will clearly display the origin of the pork on the front of the packet. Meanwhile, a declaration that the meat is, for example, 'British', will mean that the animal was born, reared, and slaughtered in Britain.


There will also be an end to ambiguous terms such as 'Produced in the UK' as the origin of the meat will be declared.


The voluntary agreement was reached by members of the Pig Meat Supply Chain Task Force which was brought together by Defra, chaired by Food and Farming Minister Jim Fitzpatrick, who chairs the Task Force.

 

[Sandhusker]

I repeat the question; What are you going to do or wish you had done?
Need more time to come up with an answer?

 

[Kato]

Going to do? We're pushing for our own MCOOL, but we don't insist that it's applied in such a way that it violates trade agreements that WE BOTH SIGNED. If you want to ship some steers up here and sell them for what we get for them, we'll be happy to put Canada on them, but I doubt if you'd want to do that.

Canada is a substantial market for American beef. You may not want to believe that, but it is. I guess if the WTO thing was to turn into the same kind of fiasco as most other trade issues with your country, we could push for the same kind of MCOOL as you have. We've got nothing to lose. You, on the other hand, do.

What I wish we had of done was not sign onto NAFTA. It was one of the biggest mistakes this country has ever done. Silly us, thinking that you guys would actually have the integrity to honour your word. I guess we learned the hard way just how trustworthy the word of the American trade negotiators is. Before NAFTA, farmers used to make a living in this country, but ever since, it's been one disaster after another.

But since I wasn't sitting at the table the day that paper was signed, there's not much I can do about it. There was lots of opposition to it in this country, but the pressure from south was enormous. After all, when it got right down to it, it was all about oil. And access to that oil. And the whole world knows the most dangerous thing you can do is get between America and a barrel of oil.

 

[Sandhusker]

Going to do? We're pushing for our own MCOOL, but we don't insist that it's applied in such a way that it violates trade agreements that WE BOTH SIGNED. If you want to ship some steers up here and sell them for what we get for them, we'll be happy to put Canada on them, but I doubt if you'd want to do that.

Canada is a substantial market for American beef. You may not want to believe that, but it is. I guess if the WTO thing was to turn into the same kind of fiasco as most other trade issues with your country, we could push for the same kind of MCOOL as you have. We've got nothing to lose. You, on the other hand, do.

What I wish we had of done was not sign onto NAFTA. It was one of the biggest mistakes this country has ever done. Silly us, thinking that you guys would actually have the integrity to honour your word. I guess we learned the hard way just how trustworthy the word of the American trade negotiators is. Before NAFTA, farmers used to make a living in this country, but ever since, it's been one disaster after another.

But since I wasn't sitting at the table the day that paper was signed, there's not much I can do about it. There was lots of opposition to it in this country, but the pressure from south was enormous. After all, when it got right down to it, it was all about oil. And access to that oil. And the whole world knows the most dangerous thing you can do is get between America and a barrel of oil.

If your MCOOL allows the packers to label South American sides as "Product of Canada" simply because the carcass of an animal who was never within 3000 miles of Canada in it's year and a half while alive was cut into pieces in your country after being there a day, you've done nothing except help your meat cutters profit from a sham. How is that going to promote the cattle actually raised in Canada? How will that increase the demand for YOUR cattle?

 

[Anonymous]

Going to do? We're pushing for our own MCOOL, but we don't insist that it's applied in such a way that it violates trade agreements that WE BOTH SIGNED. If you want to ship some steers up here and sell them for what we get for them, we'll be happy to put Canada on them, but I doubt if you'd want to do that.

Canada is a substantial market for American beef. You may not want to believe that, but it is. I guess if the WTO thing was to turn into the same kind of fiasco as most other trade issues with your country, we could push for the same kind of MCOOL as you have. We've got nothing to lose. You, on the other hand, do.

What I wish we had of done was not sign onto NAFTA. It was one of the biggest mistakes this country has ever done. Silly us, thinking that you guys would actually have the integrity to honour your word. I guess we learned the hard way just how trustworthy the word of the American trade negotiators is. Before NAFTA, farmers used to make a living in this country, but ever since, it's been one disaster after another.

But since I wasn't sitting at the table the day that paper was signed, there's not much I can do about it. There was lots of opposition to it in this country, but the pressure from south was enormous. After all, when it got right down to it, it was all about oil. And access to that oil. And the whole world knows the most dangerous thing you can do is get between America and a barrel of oil.

If your MCOOL allows the packers to label South American sides as "Product of Canada" simply because the carcass of an animal who was never within 3000 miles of Canada in it's year and a half while alive was cut into pieces in your country after being there a day, you've done nothing except help your meat cutters profit from a sham. How is that going to promote the cattle actually raised in Canada? How will that increase the demand for YOUR cattle?

AMEN Sandhusker- but the Katos of Canada- many of which are in the pockets of the ABP/CCA/NCBA mulitcorporate backers can't rememeber when back in in 2003- after BSE- their government was still importing in multi tons of beef from everywhere in the world- including if I remember right supplying there military with Uruguayan produced beef when someone did a background check :???:

WOULDN'T IT BE A HELL OF A LOT MORE HONEST- JUST TO TELL FOLKS WHERE IT WAS BORN, RAISED, AND SLAUGHTERED- and then leave the decision to those consumer folks- in both countries....
To me the whole NAFTA situation has been a lot of political lying and positioning by special interest groups (which the Canadian cattleman had a big role to play when back 20 years ago they said ALL US CATTLE ARE DISEASED)- and decided their was no such thing as a North American or even US/Canadian herd -- so wouldn't it be great if we tried to bring forth some openness and transparency- like the consumers are asking for.....

The same truth in labeling, openess, and transparency that groups like R-CALF, USCA, and major consumer groups have fought for for years--- but Canadians have pimped themselves to the multinationals by fighting.....

And now these same Canadians wonder why they have been totally taken over by multinationals and conglomerates :???:

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

Going to do? We're pushing for our own MCOOL, but we don't insist that it's applied in such a way that it violates trade agreements that WE BOTH SIGNED. If you want to ship some steers up here and sell them for what we get for them, we'll be happy to put Canada on them, but I doubt if you'd want to do that.

Canada is a substantial market for American beef. You may not want to believe that, but it is. I guess if the WTO thing was to turn into the same kind of fiasco as most other trade issues with your country, we could push for the same kind of MCOOL as you have. We've got nothing to lose. You, on the other hand, do.

What I wish we had of done was not sign onto NAFTA. It was one of the biggest mistakes this country has ever done. Silly us, thinking that you guys would actually have the integrity to honour your word. I guess we learned the hard way just how trustworthy the word of the American trade negotiators is. Before NAFTA, farmers used to make a living in this country, but ever since, it's been one disaster after another.

But since I wasn't sitting at the table the day that paper was signed, there's not much I can do about it. There was lots of opposition to it in this country, but the pressure from south was enormous. After all, when it got right down to it, it was all about oil. And access to that oil. And the whole world knows the most dangerous thing you can do is get between America and a barrel of oil.

If your MCOOL allows the packers to label South American sides as "Product of Canada" simply because the carcass of an animal who was never within 3000 miles of Canada in it's year and a half while alive was cut into pieces in your country after being there a day, you've done nothing except help your meat cutters profit from a sham. How is that going to promote the cattle actually raised in Canada? How will that increase the demand for YOUR cattle?

AMEN Sandhusker- but the Katos of Canada- many of which are in the pockets of the ABP/CCA/NCBA mulitcorporate backers can't rememeber when back in in 2003- after BSE- their government was still importing in multi tons of beef from everywhere in the world- including if I remember right supplying there military with Uruguayan produced beef when someone did a background check :???:

WOULDN'T IT BE A HELL OF A LOT MORE HONEST- JUST TO TELL FOLKS WHERE IT WAS BORN, RAISED, AND SLAUGHTERED- and then leave the decision to those consumer folks- in both countries....
To me the whole NAFTA situation has been a lot of political lying and positioning by special interest groups (which the Canadian cattleman had a big role to play when back 20 years ago they said ALL US CATTLE ARE DISEASED)- and decided their was no such thing as a North American or even US/Canadian herd -- so wouldn't it be great if we tried to bring forth some openness and transparency- like the consumers are asking for.....

The same truth in labeling, openess, and transparency that groups like R-CALF, USCA, and major consumer groups have fought for for years--- but Canadians have pimped themselves to the multinationals by fighting.....

And now these same Canadians wonder why they have been totally taken over by multinationals and conglomerates :???:

Wasn't it you telling us about your local butcher throwing the boxes with the Maple Leaf on them out the backdoor?

Who's lying now?

 

[Anonymous]

If your MCOOL allows the packers to label South American sides as "Product of Canada" simply because the carcass of an animal who was never within 3000 miles of Canada in it's year and a half while alive was cut into pieces in your country after being there a day, you've done nothing except help your meat cutters profit from a sham. How is that going to promote the cattle actually raised in Canada? How will that increase the demand for YOUR cattle?

AMEN Sandhusker- but the Katos of Canada- many of which are in the pockets of the ABP/CCA/NCBA mulitcorporate backers can't rememeber when back in in 2003- after BSE- their government was still importing in multi tons of beef from everywhere in the world- including if I remember right supplying there military with Uruguayan produced beef when someone did a background check :???:

WOULDN'T IT BE A HELL OF A LOT MORE HONEST- JUST TO TELL FOLKS WHERE IT WAS BORN, RAISED, AND SLAUGHTERED- and then leave the decision to those consumer folks- in both countries....
To me the whole NAFTA situation has been a lot of political lying and positioning by special interest groups (which the Canadian cattleman had a big role to play when back 20 years ago they said ALL US CATTLE ARE DISEASED)- and decided their was no such thing as a North American or even US/Canadian herd -- so wouldn't it be great if we tried to bring forth some openness and transparency- like the consumers are asking for.....

The same truth in labeling, openess, and transparency that groups like R-CALF, USCA, and major consumer groups have fought for for years--- but Canadians have pimped themselves to the multinationals by fighting.....

And now these same Canadians wonder why they have been totally taken over by multinationals and conglomerates :???:

Wasn't it you telling us about your local butcher throwing the boxes with the Maple Leaf on them out the backdoor?

Who's lying now?

Yep- that seems to be the new way of doing business- from the multinationals to the Walmarts to the local retailer-- that its OK to throw out ethics, morals, and honesty if there is a buck to be made by doing it...

And the really sad part of it - was that it was a government backed FRAUD- by USDA saying it was plumb OK to do that- and after repackaging they could stick a USDA stamp on it implying it was US product and pass it off as such....

And to me its sad to see some Canadian producers/ranchers that have fallen into that same circle-- and now that we finally have some laws that require retailers to tell the truth and give more transparency to consumers (Where Born, Raised, Slaughtered)-- are fighting the law and want to keep the FRAUD going because they think they may make a buck...

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

AMEN Sandhusker- but the Katos of Canada- many of which are in the pockets of the ABP/CCA/NCBA mulitcorporate backers can't rememeber when back in in 2003- after BSE- their government was still importing in multi tons of beef from everywhere in the world- including if I remember right supplying there military with Uruguayan produced beef when someone did a background check :???:

WOULDN'T IT BE A HELL OF A LOT MORE HONEST- JUST TO TELL FOLKS WHERE IT WAS BORN, RAISED, AND SLAUGHTERED- and then leave the decision to those consumer folks- in both countries....
To me the whole NAFTA situation has been a lot of political lying and positioning by special interest groups (which the Canadian cattleman had a big role to play when back 20 years ago they said ALL US CATTLE ARE DISEASED)- and decided their was no such thing as a North American or even US/Canadian herd -- so wouldn't it be great if we tried to bring forth some openness and transparency- like the consumers are asking for.....

The same truth in labeling, openess, and transparency that groups like R-CALF, USCA, and major consumer groups have fought for for years--- but Canadians have pimped themselves to the multinationals by fighting.....

And now these same Canadians wonder why they have been totally taken over by multinationals and conglomerates :???:

Wasn't it you telling us about your local butcher throwing the boxes with the Maple Leaf on them out the backdoor?

Who's lying now?

Yep- that seems to be the new way of doing business- from the multinationals to the Walmarts to the local retailer-- that its OK to throw out ethics, morals, and honesty if there is a buck to be made by doing it...

And the really sad part of it - was that it was a government backed FRAUD- by USDA saying it was plumb OK to do that- and after repackaging they could stick a USDA stamp on it implying it was US product and pass it off as such....

And to me its sad to see some Canadian producers/ranchers that have fallen into that same circle-- and now that we finally have some laws that require retailers to tell the truth and give more transparency to consumers (Where Born, Raised, Slaughtered)-- are fighting the law and want to keep the FRAUD going because they think they may make a buck...

All they needed to do was change the stamp to "INSPECTED BY USDA"
there would be no confusion that it was a product of USA. The producers of the USA could label the beef processed in the USA and beef coming from Canada was already labeled as product of CANADA INSPECTED by USDA .

 

[burnt]

Wasn't it you telling us about your local butcher throwing the boxes with the Maple Leaf on them out the backdoor?

Who's lying now?

Yep- that seems to be the new way of doing business- from the multinationals to the Walmarts to the local retailer-- that its OK to throw out ethics, morals, and honesty if there is a buck to be made by doing it...

And the really sad part of it - was that it was a government backed FRAUD- by USDA saying it was plumb OK to do that- and after repackaging they could stick a USDA stamp on it implying it was US product and pass it off as such....

And to me its sad to see some Canadian producers/ranchers that have fallen into that same circle-- and now that we finally have some laws that require retailers to tell the truth and give more transparency to consumers (Where Born, Raised, Slaughtered)-- are fighting the law and want to keep the FRAUD going because they think they may make a buck...

All they needed to do was change the stamp to "INSPECTED BY USDA"
there would be no confusion that it was a product of USA. The producers of the USA could label the beef processed in the USA and beef coming from Canada was already labeled as product of CANADA INSPECTED by USDA .

AMEN! BMr, that's all they needed to do!

Do we have a HALLELUJAH out there?


:lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

 

[Anonymous]

Wasn't it you telling us about your local butcher throwing the boxes with the Maple Leaf on them out the backdoor?

Who's lying now?

Yep- that seems to be the new way of doing business- from the multinationals to the Walmarts to the local retailer-- that its OK to throw out ethics, morals, and honesty if there is a buck to be made by doing it...

And the really sad part of it - was that it was a government backed FRAUD- by USDA saying it was plumb OK to do that- and after repackaging they could stick a USDA stamp on it implying it was US product and pass it off as such....

And to me its sad to see some Canadian producers/ranchers that have fallen into that same circle-- and now that we finally have some laws that require retailers to tell the truth and give more transparency to consumers (Where Born, Raised, Slaughtered)-- are fighting the law and want to keep the FRAUD going because they think they may make a buck...

All they needed to do was change the stamp to "INSPECTED BY USDA"
there would be no confusion that it was a product of USA. The producers of the USA could label the beef processed in the USA and beef coming from Canada was already labeled as product of CANADA INSPECTED by USDA .

But that would be false too- because the USDA and FDA was not doing the inspections in Canada, Mexico, Uruguay, Thailand, China etal..It was being done by those countries inspectors- some countries where graft is meant to be part of their salaries- and some of which would sell their sister for a $5 bill...

That may be one of the reasons the consumers of the US decided they wanted more information- and like most modern countries of the world now have- wanted Mandatory Country of Origin Labeling- so they could make an informed decision on their own...

 

[Shaft]

Citing a study of U.S. consumers last fall, BIC said product identified as Canadian beef drew a "strong response" with over 76 per cent agreeing when consumers were asked if Canadian beef is a premium product.

So, what is the real problem with the US MCOOL laws apart from finger-pointing? As time passes the gap will close until we get to the point where US meatpackers are paying a premium on Canadian cattle.

Canada has the meatpacking industry concentrated in the hands of two main players. The US, with ten times the population of Canada, has the meatpacking industry concentrated in the hands of four main players. What's to crow about?

Sandy, the reason the multinationals are opposing MCOOL is because they have a long and storied history of divide and conquer through drawing attention away from issues that really matter by pretending to fight over issues that do not really matter and have no hope of resolution, but will take up a lot of time and energy and divide opposition.

The real issue here is that cattle producers, both Canadian and US, continue to get screwed in the value chain. What do you propose to do about it? Continue to get sidetracked with illusory protectionist issues? It is not only R-CALF's lawyers that are happy to fight protectionist battles. The big packers just love you guys. As long as you cannot keep your guns pointed downrange at the packers where they belong, cattle producers on both sides of the border, and including your own feet, will continue to wind up shot.

 

[Sandhusker]

Shaft, I'd say the source for the beef that the packer's sell in our countries is a matter of life or death for the industry as we know it and want to keep it, especially considering all of the time, money, and effort that they are spending on making the purchasing of US and/or Canadian cattle an option to be weighed against the purchase price of beef from country "X".

We're all in the same boat, and COOL partnered with an aggressive marketing campaign seems to me the best way to head off the flood of South American beef that the triumvirate of the NCBA/USDA/Packers are intent on bringing to our shores.

Do you have a better idea?

 

[burnt]

Shaft
Member
Member


Joined: 14 Feb 2008
Posts: 105
Location: The Big Smoke

Oh my goodness! A (welcome) blast from the past for certain! Perhaps "what's past is prologue"?

 

[Shaft]

burnt, you're just a miserable old @#$% from Ontario, which gives us something in common.

As for you Sandy, well:

We're all in the same boat, and COOL partnered with an aggressive marketing campaign seems to me the best way to head off the flood of South American beef that the triumvirate of the NCBA/USDA/Packers are intent on bringing to our shores.

When I see it, I'll believe it, but all I see from R-CALF is continuous attacks on Canada and Canadian cattle producers. Up here we respect those who walk the walk, not those who just talk the talk.

For the general edification of those who have a cosmopolitan view I would refer you to the UK's new agricultural policy document called Food 2030, released last month.

http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/food/pdf/food2030strategy.pdf

Among other things the UK government has identified that profit and risk must be 'spread more fairly across the supply chain' (see page 30). Who knew?

Now Sandy, is R-CALF on board with your surprisingly common-sense approach of 'COOL partnered with an aggressive marketing campaign' (which I wholeheartedly agree with), or will the BS continue?

 

[per]

burnt, you're just a miserable old @#$% from Ontario, which gives us something in common.

As for you Sandy, well:

We're all in the same boat, and COOL partnered with an aggressive marketing campaign seems to me the best way to head off the flood of South American beef that the triumvirate of the NCBA/USDA/Packers are intent on bringing to our shores.

When I see it, I'll believe it, but all I see from R-CALF is continuous attacks on Canada and Canadian cattle producers. Up here we respect those who walk the walk, not those who just talk the talk.

For the general edification of those who have a cosmopolitan view I would refer you to the UK's new agricultural policy document called Food 2030, released last month.

http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/food/pdf/food2030strategy.pdf

Among other things the UK government has identified that profit and risk must be 'spread more fairly across the supply chain' (see page 30). Who knew?

Now Sandy, is R-CALF on board with your surprisingly common-sense approach of 'COOL partnered with an aggressive marketing campaign' (which I wholeheartedly agree with), or will the BS continue?

Common sense for the Center of the Universe, who knew! :shock: Now there are 2. The rest are to get the shaft or be burnt. :wink:

 

[Sandhusker]

Shaft, I've said that R-CALF is not targeting Canadian producers here so many times that I'm getting sick to the gills of it. If you would think about it, going after producers doesn't make sense - which is exactly why R-CALF ISN'T targeting Canadian producers. Canadian producers don't have the power, don't make the policy, etc.... R-CALF is going after the damn packers and the sold-out lackeys in the goverments.

Are producers going to be collateral damage in an attack on the afore mentioned duo? Of course. It's unavoidable when the system that you're in has made you dependent on those very same pirates. If you take out the bootleggers, Grandpa's still income is going to suffer even if you have nothing against Grandpa. Should that reality cause one to not take action? Since not taking action means certain servitude ala the US chicken and pork industries, I think that is easily answered.

 

[Kato]

If you really believe RCALF is not targeting Canadian producers, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

You can say it all you like, but that doesn't change the facts.

 

[Anonymous]

If you really believe RCALF is not targeting Canadian producers, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

You can say it all you like, but that doesn't change the facts.

I think R-CALF- and its targeting only of Canada is just a Canadian Paranoia- and a Canadian Sympathy Excuse....Canadians- in their paranoia- give R-CALF and the US cattle producers too much credit/blame for all their problems- and forget that the US imports beef/meat from 50 countries of the world- and food products from hundreds of countries- and altho MCOOL was law it was going nowhere really until foreign food imports from Mexico- China - Thailand- etc. around the world- was found to be adulterated, or diseased- or tainted- and hundreds/thousands were sickened or killed by these imports....
That is when US consumers stood up and said they want the same as most modern countries of the world have- truth in origin and processing- and more transparency- and the ability to make an informed decision on their own to what they feed their families- and from where it comes...

And its enlightning for me to see that more and more Canadians are starting to respond to their consumers- and realize that Canada needs a law that mirrors our own- and reallize that the threat against them is not the R-CALF's- but the multinationals, that will use them any which way they can to profiteer....
But then there are the Kato's and a few others of Canada- that would prefer to blame it all on the US- US consumers- MCOOL- RCALF- and the US cattle producers rather than the nest they laid their eggs into thinking they were going to ride the high horse...