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Credibility 101

Sandbag: "Was he the same one who told you and Agman that Japan never asked for testing?"

He didn't have to. Anyone with half a brain would know that if bse testing was important to Japan, they would be insisting on bse testing today instead of importing non tested beef from Canada and the US. During negotiations, not once did Japan mention anything about testing that was covered in the media.

I swear, you cling to the most worthless arguments. A group of people could all be driving Chevys and you would claim they wanted Fords. That's about the depth of your intelligence. What you want to believe has always carried more value to you than what facts will support.


Sandbag: "After I told my Senator that I supported R-CALF, he said, "They sure are gaining a following in Washington."

If you call Tim Johnson a FOLLOWING. Tim is definitely a FOLLOWER because he sure as heck doesn't lead. R-CULT can't lie about bse in regards to Canada and change your story for the US and expect to maintain any credibility.


~SH~
 
OCM: "And I recently visited with someone who visited with some high Ag Department officials. It is interesting that some of the officials went away from the meeting repeating with approval some of the phrases spoken to them by the R-CALF representatives."

Hahaha! Oh yeh baby! After R-CULT stood in front of the media hand in hand with Carol Tucker Foreman stating that "USDA doesn't care about food safety", I'll bet they're just repeating everything R-CULT tells them. Hahaha! Too funny!


OCM: "The issue is not solely credibility, but power."

Yeh, I'd certainly expect you to add a disclaimer regarding credibility when it comes to R-CULT.


OCM: "NCBA was unable to deliver on animal ID. USDA has seen the handwriting on the wall. NCBA's credibility on animal ID is zilch. The USDA is now (almost, but not quite) taking the R-CALF line."

That is a damn LIE!

NCBA supports VOLUNTARY ID. You were the damn hypocrites saying over and over "DON'T CONSUMERS HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW WHERE THEIR BEEF COMES FROM" then you flip flopped when you realized that meant source verification for you too. OOOOOOPS!

The R-CULT line? What the hell is the R-CULT line?

"Don't consumers have a right to know where their beef comes from"
"Don't burden me with traceback"

WHICH LINE OCM?????


OCM: "The phrase (from Bruce Knight and Ron DeHaven) is "States Rights." R-CALF brought it to their attention, and now they believe R-CALF."

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

You think "STATES RIGHTS" is some novel concept that R-CULT come up with????

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I'll bet R-CULT invented the internet too didn't they???

Hahahahahaha !

I'm going to add that one to my list. R-CULT takes credit for the concept of "STATES RIGHTS". Hahahaha! Oh damn that is funny! Talk about living in a bubble. GEE, WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THAT????? Hahaha!

You R-CULTers are something else.


~SH~
 
~SH~ said:
OCM: "And I recently visited with someone who visited with some high Ag Department officials. It is interesting that some of the officials went away from the meeting repeating with approval some of the phrases spoken to them by the R-CALF representatives."

Hahaha! Oh yeh baby! After R-CULT stood in front of the media hand in hand with Carol Tucker Foreman stating that "USDA doesn't care about food safety", I'll bet they're just repeating everything R-CULT tells them. Hahaha! Too funny!


OCM: "The issue is not solely credibility, but power."

Yeh, I'd certainly expect you to add a disclaimer regarding credibility when it comes to R-CULT.


OCM: "NCBA was unable to deliver on animal ID. USDA has seen the handwriting on the wall. NCBA's credibility on animal ID is zilch. The USDA is now (almost, but not quite) taking the R-CALF line."

That is a damn LIE!

NCBA supports VOLUNTARY ID. You were the damn hypocrites saying over and over "DON'T CONSUMERS HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW WHERE THEIR BEEF COMES FROM" then you flip flopped when you realized that meant source verification for you too. OOOOOOPS!

The R-CULT line? What the hell is the R-CULT line?

"Don't consumers have a right to know where their beef comes from"
"Don't burden me with traceback"

WHICH LINE OCM?????


OCM: "The phrase (from Bruce Knight and Ron DeHaven) is "States Rights." R-CALF brought it to their attention, and now they believe R-CALF."

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

You think "STATES RIGHTS" is some novel concept that R-CULT come up with????

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I'll bet R-CULT invented the internet too didn't they???

Hahahahahaha !

I'm going to add that one to my list. R-CULT takes credit for the concept of "STATES RIGHTS". Hahahaha! Oh damn that is funny! Talk about living in a bubble. GEE, WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THAT????? Hahaha!

You R-CULTers are something else.


~SH~

I rest my case.
 
Newsflash for 'R-CALF-followers': What Dr. Holland and others are talking about re. ID is improving state management/control of HEALTH ID ISSUES......which many states have done/are doing.......and leave MARKETING ID with private industry on a voluntary, consumer driven basis, which is how NCBA members want it.

You boys who fear M-ID is evil, devil mandated, worthless........keep right on "believing" while those who choose to conduct business in the real world will get the benefits of our decision to provide information and improve our future production with the information we get in return.

The only aspect I fear from this scenario is that you doomsday promoters will whine enough to your elected keepers that they will see our efforts at self help as a bonanza and act to "take from those who have, and give to those who need"..........

Foolishly, back in the '50's when I was in highschool, I marvelled at the altruism and dedication of young people across the nation who proclaimed "when I graduate, I want to help people". Little did I realize that they intended to fund their good deeds and their own nice salaries via confiscatory taxes those of us who were attempting to make a living producing goods and services needed in this nation!!!!!

That is "Do Gooders" and Democrat politics described to a T........then, as now.

MRJ

MRJ
 
MRJ said:
Newsflash for 'R-CALF-followers': What Dr. Holland and others are talking about re. ID is improving state management/control of HEALTH ID ISSUES......which many states have done/are doing.......and leave MARKETING ID with private industry on a voluntary, consumer driven basis, which is how NCBA members want it.

You boys who fear M-ID is evil, devil mandated, worthless........keep right on "believing" while those who choose to conduct business in the real world will get the benefits of our decision to provide information and improve our future production with the information we get in return.

The only aspect I fear from this scenario is that you doomsday promoters will whine enough to your elected keepers that they will see our efforts at self help as a bonanza and act to "take from those who have, and give to those who need"..........

Foolishly, back in the '50's when I was in highschool, I marvelled at the altruism and dedication of young people across the nation who proclaimed "when I graduate, I want to help people". Little did I realize that they intended to fund their good deeds and their own nice salaries via confiscatory taxes those of us who were attempting to make a living producing goods and services needed in this nation!!!!!

That is "Do Gooders" and Democrat politics described to a T........then, as now.

MRJ

MRJ

MRJ, benefits come in the form of higher prices paid. The packers want the benefits while not paying the higher prices.

It is called market failure when price does not reward. Pickett showed that price wasn't rewarding and was subservient to ulterior motives of the packers.
 
Conman: "The packers want the benefits while not paying the higher prices."

Fact: In 2005, we had the highest feeder cattle prices ever recorded and packers were paying as high as $116 per cwt (that means hundred weight Conman) yet you claim they don't want to pay higher prices?

Consider yourself buried by the facts once again.


Conman: "It is called market failure when price does not reward."

I just proved that the market did reward proving you a liar again.


Conman: "Pickett showed that price wasn't rewarding and was subservient to ulterior motives of the packers."

Another lie!

Pickett proved nothing!
Pickett lost!
Judge Strom said there was no proof of market manipulation in Pickett.
The 11th circuit court upheld that decision.
The Supreme Court upheld that decision by refusing to try the case again.
There was no proof of market manipulation in Pickett, PERIOD!


~SH~
 
~SH~ said:
Conman: "The packers want the benefits while not paying the higher prices."

Fact: In 2005, we had the highest feeder cattle prices ever recorded and packers were paying as high as $116 per cwt (that means hundred weight Conman) yet you claim they don't want to pay higher prices?

Consider yourself buried by the facts once again.


Conman: "It is called market failure when price does not reward."

I just proved that the market did reward proving you a liar again.


Conman: "Pickett showed that price wasn't rewarding and was subservient to ulterior motives of the packers."

Another lie!

Pickett proved nothing!
Pickett lost!
Judge Strom said there was no proof of market manipulation in Pickett.
The 11th circuit court upheld that decision.
The Supreme Court upheld that decision by refusing to try the case again.
There was no proof of market manipulation in Pickett, PERIOD!


~SH~

SH, the Pickett case data showed that packers (Tyson) left the premiums they were willing to pay for higher quality in the cash market only in the grid market. That reduced the prices paid in the over all market because the grid market was based on the cash price. Pure market manipulation.

The market goes up and down depending on supply/demand of the meats categories. If you attribute the ups to the packers, you have to attribute the downs to the packers. You can't have it both ways.

Tyson made out like a bandit because they were the largest supplier of chickens which went way up in price. They did not share that increased revenue with their farmers because there is no free market determination for their supply there.

Keep spouting your nonsense. That is all it is.

I got a laugh when I saw you was you who was posting to a credibility topic. I am still laughing. :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
SH- If you were up on your FACTS (:lol: ) you would know that Creekstone is not the only company to send beef with bone chips--Now there has been two more....As it is virtually impossible to remove all bone chips under the current Packer slaughtering practices...

And the Koreans, just like the Japanese and many other countries do not consider it a trade issue- it is a health issue and that is the reason most are taking none and Japan is only taking a drop in the bucket of what they used to......And US producers continue to lose $175 per head slaughtered because NCBA folk say they got principles....Too bad they don't have ethics, morals, and honesty to go along with it- instead of supporting the loopholes that allow the Packers/Retailers to pass off beef from anywhere in the world as US product to US consumers....
 
Lying King: ["SH, the Pickett case data showed that packers (Tyson) left the premiums they were willing to pay for higher quality in the cash market only in the grid market. That reduced the prices paid in the over all market because the grid market was based on the cash price. Pure market manipulation."

Bullsh*t!

Tyson is not "THE MARKET", Tyson is "A MARKET WITHIN THE MARKET". If Tyson has their cattle needs procured in the formula market, that means there is that many less cattle available to Swift, Excel, USPB, and Greater Omaha in the cash market creating competition for the remaining cattle.

That's why Pickett lost.

If you weren't such a packer blaming idiot, you'd know that.


Lying King: "The market goes up and down depending on supply/demand of the meats categories. If you attribute the ups to the packers, you have to attribute the downs to the packers. You can't have it both ways."

Another stupid statement that makes absolutely no sense. The packers adjust the prices they pay for cattle both up and down based on the supply of cattle and on the demand for beef. It's never been any different.


Lying King: "Keep spouting your nonsense. That is all it is."

Keep telling yourself that Lying King, it's easier than backing the smack with hard data isn't it?


Lying King: "I got a laugh when I saw you was you who was posting to a credibility topic. I am still laughing."

Keep laughing. Everyone that matters has you figured out. Those who don't matter are just looking for another member to add to their blamers support group.


OT: "SH- If you were up on your FACTS ( ) you would know that Creekstone is not the only company to send beef with bone chips--Now there has been two more....As it is virtually impossible to remove all bone chips under the current Packer slaughtering practices...

And the Koreans, just like the Japanese and many other countries do not consider it a trade issue- it is a health issue and that is the reason most are taking none and Japan is only taking a drop in the bucket of what they used to......And US producers continue to lose $175 per head slaughtered because NCBA folk say they got principles....Too bad they don't have ethics, morals, and honesty to go along with it- instead of supporting the loopholes that allow the Packers/Retailers to pass off beef from anywhere in the world as US product to US consumers...."

Listen to you! The hypocrite who doesn't want to be burdened with enforcing his flawed law so he's willing to trust packers to correctly label imported beef without a valid traceback system to enforce it after claiming that packers are hiding foreign beef behind the USDA grade stamp. If there was an award for hypocrisy, you r-culters would be the perfect recipients.

I never said Creekstone was the only company to ship bone in fragments. The only reason we do not have pre bse export levels is because of bse, not because USDA would not allow fraudulent bse testing.

You want to talk about ethics, morals and honesty you damn hypocrite? It was you that would sell bse tested beef to Japan from cattle under 24 months of age FROM A TEST THAT WOULD NOT REVEAL BSE PRIONS IN CATTLE UNDER 24 MONTHS OF AGE. It was you who said consumers had the right to know where their beef comes from and then said he didn't want to be burdened with traceback. You bet OT! Give me the speech on morals, ethics, and honesty. You damn hypocrite.


~SH~
 
Tyson is not "THE MARKET", Tyson is "A MARKET WITHIN THE MARKET". If Tyson has their cattle needs procured in the formula market, that means there is that many less cattle available to Swift, Excel, USPB, and Greater Omaha in the cash market creating competition for the remaining cattle.

No that is not why Pickett lost. Pickett lost because the 11th circuit decided the packers could do anything they wanted as long as they had a "business justification". That allowed them to manipulate the market, if it was in their best interest to do so. The Packers and Stockyards Act was gutted by that decision and all producers lost. They lost because the judges substituted their judgment for that of the jury, breaking down the constitutional trial by jury. Judges have assumed the power they were never intended to have. All for the greed of corporate america.

There may yet be a turn around on that decision, SH. The dems. may not be as bought off as the republicans who have whored out their power to big business.

The donations by the packers to those on the agriculture, and the judiciary are well documented.

You know so little about these events so why do you comment on them?
 
A few courageous cattlemen, frustrated by USDA's failure to enforce the Packers & Stockyards Act,1 filed suit in 1996 against the nation's largest beef packer, IBP, now Tyson, alleging that the firm used captive supplies to manipulate the cash market for fed cattle, in violation of the P&S Act.

This historic lawsuit, known as Picket v. Tyson/IBP, reached trial on January 12, 2004 in United States District Court for the Middle District of Alabama. Senior Federal Judge Lyle Strom, from Nebraska, presided. After four weeks of testimony, the Court submitted the case to the Jury on February 10, 2004. Cattlemen and plaintiff were shocked that Judge Strom's instructions to the Jury were not based on the P&S Act, under which the lawsuit was filed and the case tried, but based on the more demanding standard of Sherman and Clayton Acts antitrust law. Even defense lawyers appeared surprised that Judge Strom instructions reflected the standards of antitrust law rather than the P&S Act. Nevertheless, after deliberating five days, the Jury found Tyson/IBP guilty on all counts and assessed actual damages of $1.28 billion over the Feb. 1994 through Oct. 2002 period.

Justice for independent cattlemen was short lived, as Judge Strom set aside the Jury's verdict two months later and entered summary judgment for Tyson. One year later the Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit sided with Judge Strom.

Neither Judge Strom nor the Circuit Judges made a substantive challenge to the Jury's verdict that Tyson's use of captive supply had an anticompetitive effect on the cash market for fed cattle (Jury questions # 1, 2, 4, and 5). Rather, the Judges' "opinion" centered on the Jury verdict
"that the defendant lacked a legitimate business reason or competitive justification for using
captive supply (Jury question #3)." Judge Strom's instructions to the Jury and subsequent rulings related whether Tyson had a legitimate business reason for captive supply reflect an extremely
far-fetched view of what is known as the antitrust "rule of reason." The rule of reason emerged in a 1911 Supreme Court interpretation of the Sherman Antitrust Act. The common and long-standing interpretation of this rule is founded in economics: any pro-business benefits derived from an alleged anticompetitive practice should be weighed against harm to the market.

Judge Strom claimed – and the 11th Circuit endorsed – the notion that a practice (captive supply) was acceptable as long as there was any benefit to the defendant (Tyson), no matter what the harm to the market. Thus, Judge Strom and the 11th Circuit are of the opinion that pro-business benefits do not need to be weighed against harm to the market. This opinion is inconsistent with almost a century of "rule of reason" legal cases, inconsistent with basic economic reasoning, and inconsistent with common sense. In short, the Judges' rule of reason is profoundly unreasonable.

Although the Jury concluded that Tyson's claimed business justification for captive supply was pretext, or an excuse or effort to conceal something, Judge Strom claimed: "… the trial record is barren of any evidence which would permit the jury to conclude that defendant lacked a legitimate business reason for its use of captive supply. The evidence reveals that captive supply transactions permit defendant to achieve a reliable and consistent supply of fed cattle, allowing it to operate its plants in an efficient manner."

Fact #1: The Trial record includes testimony based on extensive statistical analyses of Tyson's weekly slaughter plant costs showing no significant efficiency gain from captive supply. But the Judge claims that the Trial record is "barren" or any evidence. Fact #2: Tyson's weekly captive supply was 2.8 times more variable than cash acquisitions, contrary to Judge Strom's claim that captive arrangements assured them of a stable supply. The Trial record also shows other substantive evidence that on which the Jury could base their verdict.

It is deeply troubling that the Judges got the facts wrong; it is equally troubling that they appointed themselves as fact finders. The 7th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution states "In Suits at common law … the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law." Thus, in Civil cases like Pickett, the Jury is to be the fact finder; in the American Court system Judges are to insure that trials are conducted properly and they are to rule on legal issues only. Yet, by anointing themselves fact-finders, the Judges overstepped their Constitutional authority.

Antitrust is not a trivial issue in our present economic setting. Connor2 identified "… hundreds of published studies of private, hard-core cartels that contained 674 observations of long-run overcharges. The primary finding is that the median cartel overcharge for all types of cartels over all time periods is 25%: 18% for domestic cartels, 32% for international cartels, and 28% for all successful cartels." Connor also found $9 billion in damages from global price-fixing of lysine, citric acid and bulk vitamins during the 1990s. alone Add to that $1.28 billion in Pickett, plus unknown damages that may have occurred from P&S cases that GIPSA did not investigate or did not prosecute, and the need for aggressive antitrust enforcement becomes obvious.

Current Status of Pickett: Petition was filed in Jan. 2006 for the U.S. Supreme Court to reconsider Pickett, particularly since the 11th Circuit is the lone outlier in the unreasonable interpretation of the antitrust rule of reason. If the Supreme Court does not override Judge Strom and the 11th Circuit, agricultural producers and food consumers will have little, if any, protection from the economic power of the few. The Sherman and Clayton Antitrust Acts, and the Packers & Stockyard Act are effectively gutted if the Judges' opinion becomes the new norm. If the Supreme Court does not restore sensibility to the Packers & Stockyards Act, the only long-term recourse is new antitrust legislation.

Randy Stevenson recently said, "They (packers and integrators) first made serfs out of poultry producers, then they made serfs out of hog producers; they knew better than to pick on a cowboy first as John Wayne just wouldn't stand for it without one helluva of a fight." Speaking of antitrust fights, Thurman Arnold, Assistant Attorney General in charge of the Antitrust Division in Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Department of Justice, said, "The competitive struggle without effective antitrust enforcement is like a fight without a referee." It sure looks like the cowboys are in a fight without referees; Judges are ignoring the plain language of the law and overstepping their authority, and GIPSA is not enforcing the Packers & Stockyards Act. Of course, the lack of referees never stopped cowboys like John Wayne from fighting – successfully fighting – for what is right! RT
 
Econ101 said:
There may yet be a turn around on that decision, SH. The dems. may not be as bought off as the republicans who have whored out their power to big business.

You know so little about these events so why do you comment on them?
Was the majority of the 11th circuit nominated by Republicans or Democrats Dcon?
 
Red Robin said:
Econ101 said:
There may yet be a turn around on that decision, SH. The dems. may not be as bought off as the republicans who have whored out their power to big business.

You know so little about these events so why do you comment on them?
Was the majority of the 11th circuit nominated by Republicans or Democrats Dcon?

Would you like to be called rag robin?

http://www.vote-smart.org/resource_political_resources_judicial_court.php?criteria=eleventh
 
Econ101 said:
Red Robin said:
Econ101 said:
There may yet be a turn around on that decision, SH. The dems. may not be as bought off as the republicans who have whored out their power to big business.

You know so little about these events so why do you comment on them?
Was the majority of the 11th circuit nominated by Republicans or Democrats Dcon?

Would you like to be called rag robin?

http://www.vote-smart.org/resource_political_resources_judicial_court.php?criteria=eleventh
Touchy aren't you dcon. Call me rag robin if it makes you feel better. Now that we know that republicans appointed most of them, how did they vote? I havn't kept up at all. I'm curious though, did they follow party lines?
 
I didn't keep up with the case well enough to even be a fluid conversationalist , much less have a well formed opinion. I just get sick all the liberal loving I run into. Democrats have tyson in bed here in Ar. The clintons were certainly friends of tyson . I'm just wondering how he says it's the rep. administrations fault. Maybe he can provide more insite.
 
Lying King: "No that is not why Pickett lost. Pickett lost because the 11th circuit decided the packers could do anything they wanted as long as they had a "business justification". That allowed them to manipulate the market, if it was in their best interest to do so."

YET ANOTHER BOLD FACED LIE!

The 11th circuit said no such thing. The 11th circuit upheld Judge Strom's decision that there was no violation of the PSA which there wasn't. Tyson dropping their price in the cash market to reflect their purchases in the formula market, WHICH IS NOT CAPTIVE SUPPLY BY DEFINITION, is not market manipulation. Tyson's actions do not change the fact that there is other packers buying those same cattle. If Tyson has enough cattle in the formula market to drop their price in the cash market, that means there is that many less cattle for Excel, Swift, and USPB and they have to bid accordingly. That is a fact you will not refute Lying King. Tyson dropping their price is not market manipulation when they buy less than 1/3 of the cattle. That is an absolute fact.


Lying King: "The Packers and Stockyards Act was gutted by that decision and all producers lost. They lost because the judges substituted their judgment for that of the jury, breaking down the constitutional trial by jury. Judges have assumed the power they were never intended to have."

The PSA was not gutted because there was no proof of market manipulation. NONE! It was nothing more than a baseless conspiracy theory brought by a bunch of packer blamers.


Lying King: "There may yet be a turn around on that decision, SH. The dems. may not be as bought off as the republicans who have whored out their power to big business."

YET ANOTHER BOLD FACED LIE!

Just because the Republicans do not support your baseless anti corporate victim mentality conspiracy theories does not mean they are bought off.

I'll bet anti corporate liberals like you are jumping for joy at the thought of Barbara Boxer and Nancy Pelosi leading you conspiracy theorists. The dems will screw things up again, there will have to be another republican correction, and then the dems will lie again in order to gain control. Never been any different.


Lying King: "The donations by the packers to those on the agriculture, and the judiciary are well documented."

Creating "ILLUSIONS" again?

Smoke doesn't mean a smoking gun.


Lying King: "You know so little about these events so why do you comment on them?"

Hahaha! Look who is talking. You haven't corrected me on anything I have stated yet. Not once and I'm quite sure you never will.

Readers deserve to know the truth on these issues not the lies that you anti corporate packer blaming conspiracy theorists come up with.

There was no proof of market manipulation, PERIOD and you will not prove otherwise.

You were challenged many, many times to bring the proof of market manipulation and you couldn't just like the Pickett plaintiffs couldn't. All you bring is cheap talk, lies, and your anti corporate bias.


~SH~
 
Texan said:
It will be interesting to see how the usual cast of cheerleaders handles this. I would hope that they would condemn this behavior instead of laughing it off, changing the subject, or in other ways condoning it. I guess time will tell.
Guess I'm disappointed, but not surprised...
 
Texan said:
Texan said:
It will be interesting to see how the usual cast of cheerleaders handles this. I would hope that they would condemn this behavior instead of laughing it off, changing the subject, or in other ways condoning it. I guess time will tell.
Guess I'm disappointed, but not surprised...

Texan, what are you talking about? Are you still on the fact that you didn't read the article thoroughly enough to see that it was from the Philippines?

Do you ever get over things?

I don't want to keep running your little hypothesis in the ground, but you can go read the original article posted and see for yourself.

If this post isn't about this, please clue me in.
 

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