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Crossbreeding in an angus world

B

Big Swede

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 21, 2008
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1,179
Location
South Dakota
Greetings from a "Bull Session virgin." I would like to throw out a scenario for you all to think about. A guy has a straight bred angus herd and has been that way for years. The guy reads every beef magazine that tells him he is stupid for not crossbreeding. He has tried some breeds in the past, but he never likes the results and always goes back to angus. He is knows that fertility is extremely important to the cattleman and is concerned when young cows in good condition come up empty. This same guy wants to experiment again, but wants to stay with an English black polled breed and is willing to try AIing some heifers if he can find a proven calving ease sire. He is considering South Devon and Irish Blacks. Is an F1 that beneficial for fertility and longevity or is he barking up the wrong tree?
 
Big Swede said:
Greetings from a "Bull Session virgin." I would like to throw out a scenario for you all to think about. A guy has a straight bred angus herd and has been that way for years. The guy reads every beef magazine that tells him he is stupid for not crossbreeding. He has tried some breeds in the past, but he never likes the results and always goes back to angus. He is knows that fertility is extremely important to the cattleman and is concerned when young cows in good condition come up empty. This same guy wants to experiment again, but wants to stay with an English black polled breed and is willing to try AIing some heifers if he can find a proven calving ease sire. He is considering South Devon and Irish Blacks. Is an F1 that beneficial for fertility and longevity or is he barking up the wrong tree?
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No, my friend, you are NOT barking up the wrong tree! There are many factual statistics concerning the benefits of "crossbreeding" and the results derived from the F1 calves, both in the feedlot and in keeping the heifers as replacements. Go to the Internet by way of "Dogpile" or "Google" and type in the "SEARCH" box "Crossbreeding of Beef Cattle". That will educate you and your "guy" thoroughly on the benefits of crossbreeding!

Now, having said that, let's consider some proven facts and think about the real life side to cattle breeding and crossbreeding. As all experienced breeders know, the old statement that "Like Begets Like" is very true. If you breed a proven bull (of ANY breed) who has a majority of acceptable traits and characteristics and phenotype to cows with the same TYPE of genetics ( notice I did NOT say that it had to be the same breed as the bull), you have a much greater chance of having successful calves, either in the breeding paddock or feedlot, than if the cows are scrubs, and/or genetically worthless.

Purebred cattle of any breed are more capable of reproducing their good characteristics than cattle which have been bred in a helter-skelter manner with the breeder paying no attention to desirable traits in the respective matings. If one breeds scrubs to scrubs - the result is scrubs.

Crossbreeding on the other hand is NOT breeding scrubs to scrubs, even though some people are under the wrong impression concerning CORRECT crossbreeding. The "Heterosis", or crossbred vigor derived from mating two different breeds together, results in improved characteristics of the resulting calves IF, and this is the operative phrase in crossbreeding, IF the genetics, characteristics, traits, and phenotype of the two mated individuals are optimal for generally accepted HIGH QUALITY beef production - not JUST because they are of two different breeds.

If I were advising "Your GUY" with the 'straight-bred' Angus herd that has been that way for years - - (which doesn't mean that the cattle are good, bad, or high quality or low quality) I would suggest that he has his "breeding cow herd" analyzed and culled, if necessary, by a cattleman or cattlemen, and carefully plan what his ultimate goal for his herd will be, either as a cow-calf producing operation, or as a feedlot supplier, and THEN look for a bull answering those requirements.

The genetic traits and phenotypes in comparing South Devon and Irish Blacks are similar in some instances, and quite different in others. Having done an in-depth study and examination of the Irish Blacks recently, I wholeheartedly recommend the Irish Blacks as the optimal crossbreeding breed for "your GUY'S" herd of Angus straight-breds. I know what the Irish Blacks genetics can do for that type of beef herd, and I am not that familiar with the South Devons, so I can't speak to that mating, other than to say that the South Devon is more closely aligned to a 'multi-purpose' type breed and higher milk production and dairy characteristics will present themselves in future matings.

Click on the "IRISH BLACKS" thumbnail ad at the right side of the CattleToday and Ranchers.net front pages and carefully read ALL of the website. I think that you might be surprised. And tell "your guy" to check out the website also!

DOC HARRIS
 
Thanks Doc for your reply. I guess the reason I am so hesitant is because I am afraid of screwing up a good thing. I have my cows about where I want them after years of selecting for body type, capacity, frame size, udders, disposition, etc.... All of these traits or even a couple of them could be comprimised(screwed up) with one mating to the wrong bull.

I learned in college the importance of crossbreeding and I know in my head it is the right thing to do, but I see what the marketplace does to some crossbred cattle. Potlloads of straight black cattle sell and perform well in the feedlot. I know because I have retained ownership many times. When you look at the hog industry you would be very hard pressed to find a straightbred sow. We all could learn a lot from those guys I suppose.


I think the ideal thing would be an F1 that looked Angus, and performed better than an Angus. That's why I was considering the breeds I was talking about. I know I could use improvement in yield grades and if I could do that without hurting quality it would be great.


I guess the only way to find out is to try and hope you picked the right breed and more importantly the right bull.
 
Having gone down the road of South Devon, I would urge you to leave them alone. We are mostly straightbred red angus, with some residual Saler from the last cross breeding attempt. We were in the same position as you, knowing that we needed to get more hybrid vigor back into our herd. After searching long and hard, we found what many considered to be the best SD herd in the US. We bought a bunch of semen from several of the breeder's bulls and put it in our red angus cows.

We could never see a single positive thing that the cross did for us. What had been real gentle and quite calves suddenly became very high-strung. You could walk into the pen and watch the calves start getting real up tight. You could almost feel the nervous energy ratcheting up. These calves wouldn't try to hurt you, but if you got in front of them to try to turn them you would get yourself run over. I can't tell you the number of times that I saw calves run full speed down the runway and slam into the end without even trying to stop. When we processed the calves we had to replace the wood floor in our chute because they spun their wheels so much while in the chute that they reduced our floor to nothing but kindling.

Curiously, it seemed to be the quarter blood calves that were even worse from the disposition side than the half bloods were. The F1 calves were supposed to have heavier weaning weights and healthier, we didn't see it. The F1 cows were supposed to be more productive and have better longevity, we didn't see it. The SD cross breed took the hind quarter off of our calves, ruined the disposition that we had worked on for years, and didn't add a single pound to our weaning weight.

There are a few other options for english breeds, but I would urge you to avoid the south devon, I think you will regret that breeding if you do use it.
 
Straightbred Angus has served us well with virtually no problems.

If I were to crossbred, all things considered, a Hereford bull would do what I wanted in a crossbreeding program. Not to write off the Irish Blacks. I just don't know enough about them. I would certainly research it.
 
I use South Devon bulls on our Black and baldie cows as a terminasl cross-they do have a fair bit more weaning weight and help carcass yield out. The dispositions are manageable-better than EXT's by far lol. The reason we don't keep many south devon daughters is they aren't real consistant on udders-I found a couple Devon bulls that I can get along with and have a big enough semen bank that I dpon't have to check out any more. I doubt there is a more documented or successful cross in the cattle business than the black baldie-mind you on the right set of Angus cows a one nutted billy goat would probably work just fine.
 
I can somewhat agree with the Hereford comment, but that was my last attempt at the crossbred thing and it failed miserably. Frame scores went up even though I purchased 2 half brothers with a 5.5 frame score. Volume and capacity decreased which was strike two and disposition was a wreck, strike three.

I don't care about weaning weights, but what I do care about is achieving a more fertile and productive female(longevity) if that can be done without comprimising other traits. Maybe the benefits will outweigh the loss of some of the traits that I think are so important.

If you can tell me without hurting someones pride, what South Devon sire did you use that screwed up your Red Angus? I can tell that you have been soured as much as I have in the past with crossbreeding.
 
Sorry, I would rather not name the bulls because I happen to think highly of the breeder. He is a very decent guy, I just don't want to hurt his reputation. We have tried SD a couple of times and the disposition problem is one that keeps cropping up. I know the breed has been advertised as the "gentle giants" but from our own experience that is a case of advertising your weakness.
 
Two SD bulls that worked were L-7 461Z and Prairie Granite 112G-we actually bought 112G from the Midland bull Test before Leo McDonnel got his lobotomy and hopped on the R-Calf bandwagon.
 
Big Swede: Welcome to the board. Sorry to hear of your dissapointment in using Hereford bulls. I am a commercial rancher and feel that the Angus / Hereford cross is the perfect cow for our environment.

From my personal experience my Hereford sired calves are far tamer than my higher percentage Angus, they have more natural thickness and capacity and the bulls have not added any frame. Keep in mind though that I have been fairly careful when selecting my bulls. There are Hereford bulls out there that would fit anyones use but to do it right you need to spend some time with someone who raises cattle in a similar environment and manages them similar to your program. FWIW hybred vigor is not an illusion it is real.
 
I just had a conversation a few days ago with another Red Angus breeder who had switched from or gotten rid of all his South Devons. It was a carbon copy of ewverything you said about them. Having said that Let me tell you I have been to the Gould Ranch and seen the Irish Blacks with my own eyes and they are some great cattle. I wouldn't say they are as cookie cutter as they claim, as I could see differences between bulls but, they are real nice none the less. If I was you I would either try the Irish Blacks, as there is semen available, or give the Herefords another try. I can't imagine getting worse dispositions from crossing in some good hereford. As far as the frames goes, maybe that was just a side effect of the hererosis.
 
OK, now that you have got me scared to death of South Devons, let's talk Irish Blacks. I first saw these cattle at the Bull Bash in Valentine NE a couple years ago. At the time I didn't realize exactly what they were, but after some research and a call to the source, I know a little more.

Does anyone in the upper midwest have any F1 females that a guy could look at? Are the steer mates better hanging on the rail than their straight Angus used to be? Are there proven ease calving ease sires available? Do the steer mates look like an Angus calf when they go through the sale ring or do they have that exotic look that some order buyers are leary of?

Just some thoughts.
 
We have a customer who uses South Devons and they do well carcass wise. Other than that I don't know much about them. But I also have a customer who AI'd all his cows last year to North Devons.

Can we have a conversation about that breed of cattle? This man is into efficient cattle and that is how chose to breed his black angus cows. All of em. The ones that didn't catch he bred to his Black Angus bulls.
 
About 30 yrs ago when I came back from college and 'was real smart' I started crossbreeding basically Angus cows with Limousin. Got some good looking calves but disposition was a disaster. Went back to Angus bulls for several yrs until about 8-10yrs ago when Gelbvieh breed started pushing their crossbreeding program. The crossbred calves again had poor dispositions but not as bad as Limousin. My long time vet contends that most crossbreds have worse disp. than their purebred parents.

Tried to breed Balancer cows to Balancer bulls but about 1 or2 times a yr would get an extremely large calf not only born dead but killed or crippled the cow.

Only Angus bulls for me for the rest of my ranching days.
 
I think Gelbveih calves would be a good choice on Angus cows. Red or black, for that matter. I've seen calves from both, and have been very impressed with them. You get more size to your calf at weaning time, and when you're working the calves, you can sure tell the difference between a Gelbveih sired calf and an Angus sired calf. The Gelbveihs are a whole lot nicer to work with. Oh, and the females off a Gelbveih seemed to be a whole lot more fertile.
 
For over 50 years I've did crossbreeding of many breeds with differing bunchs of cows--tried limis, simmis, charolais, hereford, hereford and simmi crossed bulls on angus base cattle-- and always came back to the straight angus...

Every cross had its problems that the straight angus didn't...And the angus during that time always seemed to fit into some good marketable program, no matter what the fad of the year was with the Packers/retailers.....

I agree with Faster Horses- if I ever decided to crossbreed again (which I ain't) I would go with the Herefords....
 
Maybe instead of crossbreeding with another breed, we need to breed our Angus females to a breed that was nearly extinct a few years ago, the original Aberdeen Angus.

If you guys haven't heard about this yet, check out www.sinclaircattlecompany.com My cousin gave me a heads up about this a while back. Seems the original Angus genetics that originated in Scotland centuries ago were almost all influenced by North American genetics, which of course included some very bad ideas about what Angus cattle should be. However there was an individual in Scotland that found a few of the remaining Angus bloodlines, linebred them, and built up a herd that has no outside influence from any other Angus blood. It says in the interview on their website that the cattle are so wide based that grass grows down the middle of their cowtrails. Also they ultrasounded a young heifer that had never been fed grain and she scored 9.3 for IMF. Off the charts compared to North American Angus cattle.


Anyway, the entire article is on the website. Might get as much hybrid vigor from one cross with these cattle than anything else. What do ya think?
 
Weren't the original Aberdeen Anguses a little bit on the short, stocky, dumpy side of things? Any pictures that I've ever seen, they are.
 
Shelly said:
Weren't the original Aberdeen Anguses a little bit on the short, stocky, dumpy side of things? Any pictures that I've ever seen, they are.
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Shelly i bought some Brangus bulls from a fellow that quit the Angus back in the 1950's because they were getting to small. I bought the Brangus from him because Angus were getting to big.
The British bred cattle were bred for smaller cattle as a fad. It's what brought out the dwarfism in Herefords.
 

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