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Crossbreeding in an angus world

That is one of the reasons I like the angus breed- and especially the blacks, because there is such big diversity in bloodlines available to choose from- and cattle types- be thee 3 frame or 8 frame...

And if you don't like the bloodlines here and want something else, there are outside sources....

http://www.anguspinebank.co.nz/index.html

Heres a complete outcross bull thats really causing the talk of the energy efficient/grassfed efficient/smaller framed folks this last year:

http://abri.une.edu.au/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=3538202F&2=2420&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&6=5F5D5A275A5926&9=5151595C
 
Big Muddy rancher said:
Shelly said:
Weren't the original Aberdeen Anguses a little bit on the short, stocky, dumpy side of things? Any pictures that I've ever seen, they are.
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Shelly i bought some Brangus bulls from a fellow that quit the Angus back in the 1950's because they were getting to small. I bought the Brangus from him because Angus were getting to big.
The British bred cattle were bred for smaller cattle as a fad. It's what brought out the dwarfism in Herefords.
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So, do you think it's a good idea to go back to the original type? I can't see how you'd make any money off the calves. Up here, they'd be bought at a discount because they're "greasy".
 
No, the short dumpy Angus were bred and developed by American breeders. They were also responsible for the elephants that were bred in the race for size back in the 80's. Too many breeders try to make Angus something they were never supposed to be. What they truly should be is a functional, easy keeping, female that produces the steers that provide the best eating experience in the world.
 
I don't think you can compare these cattle in Scotland to any other Angus cattle in the world if they are what say they are. The small framed, grass fed type you're referring to would go back to the midgets of the 50's. That is, the gene pool of the Angus breed is rather polluted with some not so very good stuff. This thing could revolutionize the Angus breed as we know it.

If this thing is for real, it could really exciting. It kind of made me forget about crossbreeding already.
 
3waycross said:
As far as the frames goes, maybe that was just a side effect of the hererosis.
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A lot of herefords these days are BIG animals. Least ways in the corn belt if you go look at a lot of the registered hereford breeders they have a lot of cows that have forgotten the moderate frame goal.
 
Faster horses said:
We have a customer who uses South Devons and they do well carcass wise. Other than that I don't know much about them. But I also have a customer who AI'd all his cows last year to North Devons.

Can we have a conversation about that breed of cattle? This man is into efficient cattle and that is how chose to breed his black angus cows. All of em. The ones that didn't catch he bred to his Black Angus bulls.
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I have used North Devons for crossing and as a purebred in England, another good breed gaining popularity again in the Northern Hemisphere is the Sussex;
http://www.redrubydevon.co.uk/index.htm
http://www.studbook.co.za/Society/sussex/index.php
http://www.sussexcattlesociety.org.uk/index.htm
Big Swede, I remember the Aberdeen Angus bred by my grandfather in Scotland as being large animals, but short in the leg compared to what I was used to in the tropics, some of the Murray Greys are of similar conformation to what I remember these cattle being. They were marketed as 'Scotch beef' and were always sold, barley finished, at a premium price.
 
Sinclair Angus bought or have some of N-Bar Ranch genetics. Tap has been to their sale and bought bulls that he was happy with. I can give you his phone number if you want to talk to him.

As for the Australian Pinebank bull, our good friends used him 2 years ago and I think there was something they didn't like. He is really massive, and I think his mature weight is over 2000 lbs. I'll have to find out more.
 
Faster horses said:
Sinclair Angus bought or have some of N-Bar Ranch genetics. Tap has been to their sale and bought bulls that he was happy with. I can give you his phone number if you want to talk to him.

As for the Australian Pinebank bull, our good friends used him 2 years ago and I think there was something they didn't like. He is really massive, and I think his mature weight is over 2000 lbs. I'll have to find out more.
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One of my neighbors bought a Diamond D heifer bred to the Pinebank bull- and I'm waiting to see what he gets for a calf...

I believe your friends the Houlds are involved in bringing the Pinebank semen/genetics to the US- anyway I think J Bob is....He's speaks quite highly of him, anyway...
 
Big Sweed, welcome. You sound like a knowledgable man. You also sound like you are pretty happy with your angus cow herd. I would start off by asking you what you are looking for other than just "heterosis" ?
Is your calving percent dropping ? Are you needing more weaning weight, or yield grade ? Iowa State Univ. is doing a study on straight bred angus vs. crossbred calves. I encourage you to look it up. It may make your decision easier. Now, back to what are you looking for. The angus breed has a lot of variability in it and a data base that will help you add whatever you want to your herd. I am not so sure about the fertility, but for example, if you were looking for more weaning weight you can find it without mucking up your birthweight and other chacteristics. IN short, I think you can add about anything you want with angus. You can get on the Angus web site and select bulls for any chacteristic you want to improve. Good luck.
 
'I dinna ken how yee think you can crossbreed with another Angus. That's just not canny' Said in Northern Ranchers best Scotch accent-breediong a tallAngus to a short one-a fat one to a skinny one-while might work wonderfully and keep you in the clique it gives you absolutely ZERO heterosis the whole premise behind crossbreeding.
 
Aye Meester Northern!

From what I've heard from some breeders that line breed, introducing a line bred sire to a herd can give a heterosis kick almost like a different breed would. I know it sounds kind of impossible, but I can see where it could happen. A linebred sire that has genetics unlike anything in the female is kind of like crossbreeding.

I guess for a guy like me that is leary of crossbreeding, that kind of logic
is easier to swallow.

I am very interested in the Iowa study also. I will look into that. Thanks!

I just like to think out loud and all the response and feedback is awesome.

I am really impressed with this forum and am glad to be a part of it.
 
I've heard a lot of reports of BW increasing and frame increasing due to heterosis. That shouldn't be a hard problem to get around, use a lighter BW bull with a smaller frame than you'd pick. The disposition also seems a little worse with crossbred cattle but there's so much variation with in each breed that it shouldn't be hard to find a bull that will sire gentle calves in any breed. There's not a breed I am familiar with that you can blindly make any statement about their attributes and be right all the time. I also don't think you can get the same kind of heterosis out of a line bred bull that you can out of a bull of a different breed. I think that's AAA propaganda. If your happy with strait bred cattle then I wouldn't change. If there are areas that you'd like to improve, I'd try crossbreeding.
 
Swede, the kick you get from using the line bred animal is the result of something called inbreeding or line breeding depression. It is a somewhat similar to heterosis, but it isn't the same thing. It has been too long since I had my animal breeding class in college to remember the particulars of this phenomenon.
 
Larry Leonhardt has line bred his cattle since 1979. You can get a kick out of using his high percentage line of cattle. He has, or used to have 100% linebred, 25% outside influence and then cattle with higher percent of outside influence.

He will tell you that hybrid vigor is the only thing that is free in this
industy.

A trip over to talk to him is free; but it is also priceless.
I'm fortunate to have had that opportunity.
 
so what are EXT's linebred with wildebeast lol. I wonder if the hog and poultry industries use linebred boars and roosters. I agree different lines within a breed can work well together but I don't think it's quite the same.
 
What I find strange is that most raising straight Angus on here are pretty happy with the results.

The biggest proponents of Cross breeding on here are the straight Hereford breeders.

Why don't they take their own advice if it works so great.

Most of us Angus breeders have tried something else and like what we get doing what we are doing.
 
This Pinebank Waigroup bull is linebred. He's an Angus bull but his calves have more body on them than any other angus cattle that I've seen or used. If this is heterosis within a breed(if that's possible) I'm all for it. I'm also a believer in linebreeding now.
 
I have read these posts on this "Crossbreeding in an Angus World" thread with increased interest as the various Forum members express their thoughts and opinions, and it has stirred different personal impressions of mine, and an admixture of feelings in attempting to localize explanations concerning Theories, Hypotheses, and Laws surrounding this phenomenon known as - CROSSBREEDING.

There have been thousands of books, articles, papers and theses written on this subject, and it is still a subject and procedure that is often misunderstood, distorted in the explanations, and sometimes considered wizardry. WHY IS THIS? In My Opinion, it is because the mechanism of the procedures and the tools which are necessary for the implementation of the planning and strategies necessary for a successful endeavor are extremely complicated, and involved in their usage.

Just as the management of a successful Purebred (Registered) herd of cattle is complicated and difficult, so also is the manipulation of Genotype, Phenotype, Functional Traits, and Breed Complimentarity a demanding exercise for optimal successful results!

Like it or not - Believe it or not - Crossbreeding is a PROVEN procedure and practice for the acquisition of heterosis (hybrid vigor) and the utilization of breed complimentarity. By so doing, the Breeder has an advantage in improving his financial bottom line, and thereby his lifestyle. The "CATCH 22" in this method of cattle breeding is - the correct and optimal usage of all of the knowledge available therein! Doing ALL of the right things CORRECTLY!

I recommend three articles dealing with this subject which can be accessed from the internet ( Dogpile or Google ). "Crossbreeding- The Lost Art?: Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3"

Interesting and fascinating reading!

DOC HARRIS
 
I didn't have time to read all of the posts on here and i know u said u wanted to stick with english breeds but just wanted to say that we have had great luck breeding to the new generation of moderate framed simmentals. and i know from eating them that the end product is very good. there are many good choices with proven maternal and terminal track records with very good calving ease. The hybrid vigor in regards to speed of growth over straitbred angus is just awsome.
 
Big Muddy rancher said:
What I find strange is that most raising straight Angus on here are pretty happy with the results.


With the exception of course, the person who started the thead with his question. :roll: :roll: Shawn
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