Big Muddy rancher
Well-known member
SHAWN said:
Notice that I said "MOST" and Big swede wasn't that happy with his other cross breeding attempts.
Of coarse your probably a Hereford man. :wink:
Crossbreeding in an angus world
- Thread starter Big Swede
- Start date
Notice that I said "MOST" and Big swede wasn't that happy with his other cross breeding attempts.
Of coarse your probably a Hereford man. :wink:
andybob
Well-known member
Both the poultry and pig industries use lines that are inbred, particularly on the terminal sire lines in pigs. I bred boars for a company that had linebred for over 30 years, there were only 5 families in the herd, and all breeding had to be done by computer matching to keep the breeding as far apart as possible at the time, they were probably the best line for feed conversion and leanness in the world, and the outbreeding and crossbreeding benefited from the heterosis effect.Northern Rancher said:
rancherfred
Well-known member
andybob said:
Sorry, I can't help but ask: How in the world did you ever get a boar bred? :???: :lol:
CattleArmy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2006
- Messages
- 3,633
We run straight angus. We have a few black white faces from some A.I. clean up bulls. However, I'd like to introduce possibly a black Simintal (sp) (just so you all know I realize it's wrong and don't have to ready about my spelling later)bull. The calves of this cross I've been exposed to are born little and easy and then just grow like weeds.
SHAWN
Well-known member
Big Muddy rancher said:
Well now do not let pictures tell the whole story there my friend. I am one of the few that am a firm believer in heterosis and feel that both hereford and angus are both very good breeds, but crossed together they are better, ie the F-1 black baldy. you can breed the f-1 anyway your heart desires. I chose to come back with black angus, this may be wrong, I should have chosen a 3rd cross on the cont. side like a limi, char, or simi to get the most out of heterosis. but like I said you cannot go to wrong with a f-1 black baldy IMO.
If I read the big swedes post correct, he said his friend was not happy with good shaped moderate framed angus coming in in the fall open, but I am not very sharp so I may have misread the fertility part. :wink: Shawn
andybob
Well-known member
I am afraid this is another example of "two nations divided by a common language" my Rhodesian english involves diferent terminology, we were breeding Large whites for terminal boar sales :wink:rancherfred said:
RobertMac
Well-known member
DOC HARRIS, a couple of questions...
Are the terms "genetic diversity" and "purebred" contradictory?
Isn't heterosis most prominent with parents of differing genetics...as in taurus X indicus?
Isn't heterosis most prominent with parents of homozygous genetics in the differing breeds?
Doesn't heterosis degenerate the farther from the F1?
Can the trait improvement of the F1 be made permanent?
Sorry, that's more than a couple...I need to find the time to read the article you recommended.
Are the terms "genetic diversity" and "purebred" contradictory?
Isn't heterosis most prominent with parents of differing genetics...as in taurus X indicus?
Isn't heterosis most prominent with parents of homozygous genetics in the differing breeds?
Doesn't heterosis degenerate the farther from the F1?
Can the trait improvement of the F1 be made permanent?
Sorry, that's more than a couple...I need to find the time to read the article you recommended.
SMN Herf
Well-known member
Welcome to the Board Swede
Sorry to hear of your dissapointment with your bulls, but I am sure you could find lots of Angus bull that will increase frame, decrease volume and give ugly dispositions too. I sell some Hereford bulls into commercial angus cowherds for use on their heifers and I hear about those and many other problems with their black bulls.
There aren't a lot of Hereford breeders that have been breeding for the traits that you mention. Most over the years have been following the high performance high input, large mature weight route, but there are those of us who have been breeding the more trouble free, moderate framed, easy calving, easy fleshing type Hereford cattle for many years now.
I would be more than happy to help you in any way I can. The benefits of heterosis are real but I also belive that everything will fail if not done correctly.
Brian
Sorry to hear of your dissapointment with your bulls, but I am sure you could find lots of Angus bull that will increase frame, decrease volume and give ugly dispositions too. I sell some Hereford bulls into commercial angus cowherds for use on their heifers and I hear about those and many other problems with their black bulls.
There aren't a lot of Hereford breeders that have been breeding for the traits that you mention. Most over the years have been following the high performance high input, large mature weight route, but there are those of us who have been breeding the more trouble free, moderate framed, easy calving, easy fleshing type Hereford cattle for many years now.
I would be more than happy to help you in any way I can. The benefits of heterosis are real but I also belive that everything will fail if not done correctly.
Brian
coyote
Well-known member
hi Big Sweede
From one scandinavian to another, may I suggest the british breed Shorthorn.
With the added money in your pocket from heterosis you can buy some potatoes to make Lefse or buy some Lutifisk.
From one scandinavian to another, may I suggest the british breed Shorthorn.
With the added money in your pocket from heterosis you can buy some potatoes to make Lefse or buy some Lutifisk.
Big Swede
Well-known member
TO SMF Herf
I will be the first to admit that I should have done more research into the Hereford breed before I jumped in with both feet. I went to what I thought was a good purebred operation in north central Nebraska to select what I thought were 2 pretty good bulls at the time, but I didn't take time to look at their mothers, look at some F1's that were a result of that sire group, or many other things I should have done to increase the odds of my success.
Basing my total bias on that end result was unfair I know, and yes I would be interested in seeing what you have to offer.
I agree with you that the race to keep up with the frame and extended growth of the continental breeds back in the 80's led a lot of english breeders down a long slippery slope. If you avoided this mistake, I commend you. Personally, I made that mistake and was using some Angus genetics that I have been trying to correct the mistakes of for a long time. Just recently I saw pictures of some of those popular bulls I was using and it's no wonder my cowherd went to hell. I know some people like the kind of cattle that I dislike so much and they can have them. I guess that what make raising cattle so much fun, all the diversity.
Anyway, let me know what you've got, I'm always looking.
I will be the first to admit that I should have done more research into the Hereford breed before I jumped in with both feet. I went to what I thought was a good purebred operation in north central Nebraska to select what I thought were 2 pretty good bulls at the time, but I didn't take time to look at their mothers, look at some F1's that were a result of that sire group, or many other things I should have done to increase the odds of my success.
Basing my total bias on that end result was unfair I know, and yes I would be interested in seeing what you have to offer.
I agree with you that the race to keep up with the frame and extended growth of the continental breeds back in the 80's led a lot of english breeders down a long slippery slope. If you avoided this mistake, I commend you. Personally, I made that mistake and was using some Angus genetics that I have been trying to correct the mistakes of for a long time. Just recently I saw pictures of some of those popular bulls I was using and it's no wonder my cowherd went to hell. I know some people like the kind of cattle that I dislike so much and they can have them. I guess that what make raising cattle so much fun, all the diversity.
Anyway, let me know what you've got, I'm always looking.
SMN Herf
Well-known member
Swede, I certainly don't pretend to have all the answers. I grew up with Herefords and my dad and granddad sold a few bulls privately until about the early eighties when they went commercial. We continued a hereford cowbase with some straight herefords with wich to produce f1s ,wich were bred terminal Charolais, and some straighbreds for replacements. My dad had been buying high performance type cattle for years and upon college graduation, I seen first hand what was happeing to the cowherd. High performing feedlot cattle, yes, but big birthweights, big dumb slow calves, harder fleshing cows and lots of cows 1500 lbs plus.
After many all nighters in the calving barn, I decided there has to be a better way. And set out to find the cattle that would do it. After some searching, I decided that I wasn't the only one with these thoughts and started a purebred opertaion on the side.
For the past 15 years, I have been growing slow, analysing my cows and culling them for anything that I don't like. The cows don't get pampered. They get fed just enough to put selection pressure on them to cull them naturally for fleshing ability and fertility. I collect all the performance data I can think of including performace data of the steers in the feedlot.
I am in a production system from birth to finsih and am constantly analysing and collecting performance of cattle throughout their life. I don't put up with cows that need attention. I dont creep feed, I supplement very little additinal protein. Usually not until 45 days prior to calving, depending on the weather and feed quality. I have found out that these cows that flesh easily and are in good shape going into winter tend to need a lot less protein and energy to get them throught the winter.
Resuls have been that 97% of my exposed heifers will calve in a 50 day calving period for the past three years. The cows will calve on their own unless weather requires me to assist them. The steers will grade 75% choice and weigh 1300 lbs plus at 14 months of age. This past year, the average weight on my cows was 1277 lbs in Oct with a BCS of 5.8, but the cow weight thing is pretty deceiving as there was a lot of young cows in that figure. I am more than willing to share any data I collect on my cows/calves.
This past year, I was invited to participate in University of Missouri study evaluating all my bulls for NFI by actually measuring the amoungt of feed they eat versus how much they gain. I hope to have some data on them by the first of March. I don't like to make claims about anything unless I have some data to prove it.
I don't advertise very much. I don't sell a lot of bulls, but I continue to grow as the volume of my genetics advance. I won't claim to have done everything right, but I am not afraid to sell a $3500 cow for $.45 a lb if she doesn't do what I demand of her.
Check out some of the photos I have posted the past year in the photo gallery and pm me if you have questions or would be interested in a bull listing when I get the data together.
Brian
After many all nighters in the calving barn, I decided there has to be a better way. And set out to find the cattle that would do it. After some searching, I decided that I wasn't the only one with these thoughts and started a purebred opertaion on the side.
For the past 15 years, I have been growing slow, analysing my cows and culling them for anything that I don't like. The cows don't get pampered. They get fed just enough to put selection pressure on them to cull them naturally for fleshing ability and fertility. I collect all the performance data I can think of including performace data of the steers in the feedlot.
I am in a production system from birth to finsih and am constantly analysing and collecting performance of cattle throughout their life. I don't put up with cows that need attention. I dont creep feed, I supplement very little additinal protein. Usually not until 45 days prior to calving, depending on the weather and feed quality. I have found out that these cows that flesh easily and are in good shape going into winter tend to need a lot less protein and energy to get them throught the winter.
Resuls have been that 97% of my exposed heifers will calve in a 50 day calving period for the past three years. The cows will calve on their own unless weather requires me to assist them. The steers will grade 75% choice and weigh 1300 lbs plus at 14 months of age. This past year, the average weight on my cows was 1277 lbs in Oct with a BCS of 5.8, but the cow weight thing is pretty deceiving as there was a lot of young cows in that figure. I am more than willing to share any data I collect on my cows/calves.
This past year, I was invited to participate in University of Missouri study evaluating all my bulls for NFI by actually measuring the amoungt of feed they eat versus how much they gain. I hope to have some data on them by the first of March. I don't like to make claims about anything unless I have some data to prove it.
I don't advertise very much. I don't sell a lot of bulls, but I continue to grow as the volume of my genetics advance. I won't claim to have done everything right, but I am not afraid to sell a $3500 cow for $.45 a lb if she doesn't do what I demand of her.
Check out some of the photos I have posted the past year in the photo gallery and pm me if you have questions or would be interested in a bull listing when I get the data together.
Brian
Faster horses
Well-known member
Brian, what is the breed of these cattle?
Nicky
Well-known member
Faster horses said:
SMN Herf ... They are polled herefords :wink:
rkaiser
Well-known member
Gotta chirp in here Big Swede. Polled Black and British -- there are two more purebred breeds. Welsh Blacks and Galloways. Everyone has stories about every breed, but cattle are often more about the breeder than the breed. If you are looking to crossbreed with Angus, but keep em black and polled and British - give us a look. 44 bulls listed on the www.teamauctionsales.com website under Kaiser's Celtic Cattle. Not one pound of supplemental grain in this set of bulls from birth to their current 20 months of age.
SMN Herf
Well-known member
Actually, they are Herefords that happen to be without horns. :wink:
The sires I have used and have had the most success with happen to be polled, but I am not against useing a horned bull if the opportunity arrises.
I thought I would post a few pictures. For those who are interested. Some of these have been posted before, but for anyone new here they are.
A picture of my home raised heifer bull that I purchased back from a customer. I AId a lot of my heifers to him this year.
Here he is in late December wintering on corn stalks with his heirum with no supplement yet.
[/img
A cow and calf from this fall.
[img][img]http://www.ranchers.net/photopost/data/500/medium/Upload_1226070001.JPG[/img]
A first calf heifer from this spring after 3 weeks of cold and wet weather.
Some yearling bred heifers that were out on the hayfield last fall.
Cows drinking in their winter pasture. They are still running on cornstalks yet and I just started feeding them a little as they will begin calving in mid to late March.
[/img]
Air force 2. The VP hunts in this area sometimes.
Thanks for looking everyone.
Brian
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
Brian-
Congratulations on a well-managed herd of cattle! They have survived the winter so far in an acceptable manner, and look PROFITABLE! The bull is a fine-looking example of good genetics!
DOC HARRIS
Congratulations on a well-managed herd of cattle! They have survived the winter so far in an acceptable manner, and look PROFITABLE! The bull is a fine-looking example of good genetics!
DOC HARRIS
Nicky
Well-known member
Nice pictures, they look good.
rkaiser
Well-known member
It's all about the breeder and not the breed. Those are some damn good looking polled hereford cattle Brian. :wink:
kevin
Active member
dont be afraid of a gelbvieh. i have several of them and have no regrets on using them. I use A.I. and natural service. i have several carolina fortune and beretta calves on the ground. also i have some calves from a hetrozygous black and polled KCF Landmark bull. If you have any questions on cross breeding angus cattle talk to a fellow named Bobby Myrick over in North Carolina. he crosses gelbvieh and angus and has some of the best balancer cattle in the world. he is owner of J-BOB farms. I also use an angus bull named RITO 6I6 for a.i. and he is used on all heifers. excellent disposition and super birthweights. calves are growing great despite an awful hay crop and drought conditions. do not be afraid of cross breeding. kevin
Red Robin
Well-known member
Agreed.rkaiser said: