Cummins/Chevy conversion

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Rod, did you ever get into any conversions?

I was reading about putting the 5.9 into my chev. Looks not too bad but pricey if I hire it done.

I can get an 89 dodge with a 92 5.9 in it for 4 grand about 180,000 km truck is crap but the engine is sweet.

We did get into some conversion work, but it was often a nightmare as the recipient vehicles were simply not heavy enough to stand the weight and vibration of the Cummins.

I never personally took part in a 1993 Chevrolet conversion, as the front end components looked to me as though they couldn't handle the weight. The 6.5 was a fairly light (for a diesel anyway) engine, so Chevrolet simply didn't need the beefy ball joints that you see on the Dodge and Fords. Even the Dodge and the Fords were simply not heavy enough, with the Dodge's needing replacing every 125,000 klicks or so.

A few gotchas to look out for, some of which may not apply to your 1993:

1) See if someone makes a heavy duty ball joint. You'll need them.
2) You'll need to contact a spring shop and get some custom springs. IIRC, the Cummins is around 1200lbs heavier than the 6.5
3) You'll need to swap yokes on the rear diff. The factory Chevy yoke likely isn't strong enough. Since you've swapped the yokes, use the Dodge driveshaft.
4) If the Dodge has the five speed, watch the angle of the transmission when you get it planted into the Chev. Look at the angle of the trans when you pull it out of the Dodge. Try to keep that same angle or a little flatter to ensure the oil bathes all the bearings and bushing properly. Also, when filling the Getrag up, over fill by 1 litre. There was a design flaw, combined with the slightly front end high position, that starved the front side bearings for oil.
5) Is it a 4 wheel drive? If so, you'll need replace the front yoke too. Use the transfer case from the Dodge if you can get it in there. The Chevrolet transfer case (I don't think) won't handle the torque. To check this, find out what case is in your truck and call the manufacturer. I believe Chev used American Axle. American will happily tell you the torque handling capacity of the transfer case.
6) Again, if 4 wheel drive, you'll need to find some heavy duty manual locking hubs.
7) If you can do fabrication work, I heartily recommend adapting the entire Dodge driveline to the Chev, including front and rear diffs. Its not as tough as it sounds. If you do decide to do this, watch the spring diameter and ensure it fits the shock tower.
8) Is the Dodge a 92, or a 92.5? They made the switch to the intercooled turbo diesel in 92.5. You want that intercooler. It was good for another 25HP/50 lbft and usually added 1 mpg or so. If the truck isn't intercooled, you should be able to find the boots, tubes and tank from a wrecked one for cheap. The non-intercooled 92 used higher volume injectors, so you may find even more power gains by placing an intercooler on it.
9) Again, IIRC, there was an aftermarket company who offered engine mounts to bolt in a Cummins to your truck. If you've got a couple hundred bucks, spend it on these. If you don't, make sure you find a good set of HEAVY mounts, and ensure the rubbers are in great shape. The Cummins, due to the nature of the inline 6, is a vibrating beast. Without adequate vibration protection, you will crack your frame.
10) Compare the guage of the iron on your Chev with the gauge of iron on the Dodge. If you're lighter, you'll need to box the frame out to add enough strength to handle the torque of the Cummins.

I think thats it. These are some of the gotchas I ran into on other conversions, and I suspect your Chev will probably exhibit the same gotchas.

To be honest Jason, given the time and the dollars it will likely cost you, you may be further ahead to find a reman 6.5, or simply fix whatever is wrong with the Dodge. The 92 Dodge is a crude truck. Rough and hard on your back, but it is a tough old bugger.

Rod

 

[Jason]

Your comming up with way more stuff than my searches found.

Chev and Dodge sometimes used the same tranny (4500 I believe)

New process transfer cases were built by dodge and in chevys.

I had been told the 6.5 was as heavy as the 5.9 hmmmm I wonder who weighed them...

I have seen this conversion done in many pre 90 chevys. I don't think they had as heavy a front end as my 93, but the 454 they were usually put in place of is a beast too.

There is a guy in Great Falls that does these but he charges $15-20 grand for a conversion. He has done over 200 conversions.. not all cummins to chevys but mostly.

His main issues are height, sometimes a lift is needed. Brackets for a/c etc. He sells the plate to convert the cummins to the chev bell housing, and he sells motor mounts too. Apperantly the cummins will sit 15 degrees off vertical mounted to the chevy, but not a problem I guess.

If it means driving an old dodge I would just repair the 6.5.. less hp is better than having to endure those trucks. I borrowed one(91 dodge) for a 750 mile haul once, pulled great but was loud and uncomfortable.

I was going to boost my 6.5 to 350 hp. Ceramic topped pistons marine injectors etc... but tapered main caps and the pistons are pricey(almost 3 grand just for those 2 sets)..then there is the cooling upgrades that need to be done, and you still have the chance of losing the block to stress failure.

Sheesh buying a used Duramax and counting on replacing the 7 grand in injector issues is looking better all the time :roll:

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Thanks for the extra info Jason, that helps.

Dodge didn't start using the NV4500 until 1994 (they used a Getrag before that), but if you've got a 4500 in your Chevy, then it should work with a bellhousing swap and possibly a flywheel machining for the input shaft bearing.

As for the New Process transfer cases, it'll depend on which NP transfer case it is. The 231s didn't have enough beef to stay glued together. You'll need a 241 or 241HD. Dodge doesn't actually own New Process, they are an independent company. Since 2004.5, Dodge only uses New Process transfer cases and switch to G56 6 speed transmissions.

As far as the weight goes, I definitely know the 6.5 is lighter by a long ways. One Cummins connecting rod weighs as much as 3 or 4 6.5 rods. The Cummins is just a heavy, heavy beast.

On your pre-90s Chevies, I suspect the front end components will be beefier but a quick peak under the truck would confirm that. I'll see if I can find some extra info on it for you, so I'm not just making an educated guess.

As far as boosting your 6.5 to 350 HP, don't bother doing it. You'll then start eating injector pumps. They just weren't engineered for that kind of power.

On the Used Dmax side, I would do it. It'll probably be cheaper in the long run, and definitely more reliable. The Dmax is a good engine, and there are excellent quality aftermarket injectors (better than stock) available for a portion of the cost of a factory injector. Injector swaps are easily performed. Working space under the hood is a little cramped, but I'd be surprised if it took you more than 3 hours or so.

Rod

 

[Jason]

More research.

6.5 weighs about 700 pounds

5.9 about 1100 pounds

I found a supplier that is selling brand new 6.5 built with a stronger block to avoid the main web breaks for $5800 US Includes everything except fuel pump and intake.

I would still need to upgrade the 93 to a dual thermostat high output water pump system.

Best price I found on a used Duramax was 28 grand for an '01 add 7 grand for pump and injectors .. 35 grand.. out of my league.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

5.9 about 1100 pounds

Hmmmm, I think I'd look for confirmation on this number. Cummins' website used to have those kinds of specifications, but since the re-organization, I can't find a doggoned thing. It sounds like they're talking about a short block or a gas 5.9L. The difference in curb weight between a Cummins equipped 3/4 ton and a 360 (5.9L) 3/4 ton is around 1600 lbs. The only difference between the two is slightly heavier springs in the front end of the diesel. Trans, transfer case, diffs, etc remain the same.

Rod

 

[RoperAB]

Hey Rod, do you know if them old(92) Cummings have sleeves in the cylinder heads?
How long do those old cummings last anyways before the top end has to be rebuilt?
What goes first? the top end? pump?turbo?
My friend has a 92,4 wheel drive thats just in terrific shape. Its an extended cab with a manual. It has something like 350,000km on it.
The truck is like brand new.
Anyway he wants $8000 for it which seems high to me. What are your thoughts?
I think he is on his second rear end and second transmission.

 

[Murgen]

Not to change the subject, but when it comes to gas engines, what would it cost to have an 8 cyl. dropped in a F150.

 

[Denny]

Not to change the subject, but when it comes to gas engines, what would it cost to have an 8 cyl. dropped in a F150.

I just had this done used motor and all the labor new hoses and belts oil filter air cleaner $1000.

It was $600 for the motor and parts $400 for labor.

 

[Brad S]

Jason,

look at something like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/90-DT466-Chipper-Dump-Box-Large-Crew-Cab-Diesel_W0QQitemZ4646356601QQcategoryZ63734QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#img


I'm going to trade for something like this to 4H my kids, but I want disc wheels instead of those antique heavy duty rascals (I suppose I could change hubs), and I'd think the springs stack should be softened. Also a little newer would be ok. I've been trying to get something done for about $10K, but the cleaner trucks I've been chasing are costing $12K

 

[katrina]

We looked for a couple of years before we bought ours... The thing with those trucks is they don't go very fast down the road..... My suggestion is maybe a frieghtliner f60 or up to ( I think a 90).... Get the cummins not a cat...... Cats don't hold up....Detriots are good ones too.... If I get some time I will post my truck my husband got me........ It 's not fancy, but does everything I want it to do... And it will run down the road too... I can drive ten hours or so and not feel like I've been whipping and riding my pickup truck down the road.... That's my two cents worth........

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Roper,

The 5.9 is a solid block, so no sleeves to worry about. As far as rebuild times, mean time between failure is rated at 350,000 miles. Having said that, I had customers with over a million miles and never touched the internals of the engine. I also pulled down several 300,000 mile engines, and the cross hatch marks were still on the cylinder walls.

The 88 - 93 Cummins didn't really have a particular failure spot that I was ever able to spot. The lift pumps were probably the first to go. Injector pump next most typical failure. Then the turbo. Bear in mind those are massive generalizations. As far as engine internals, I just never saw many failures. A couple bottom ends done in because the owner never changed oil. A few blown head gaskets.

As far as the 92. If its in really nice condition, he'd get $8000 in my neck of the woods in a heartbeat. Dad traded his 92 regular cab 4x4 in ok condition (mechanically excellent, paint faded, 300,000 klicks, interior ok to good) to the dealer for a 95 two years ago. He got $11,000 trade in allowance, and the dealer sold it off the lot that same day for $13,000.

Rod

 

[Jason]

Brad I have a 96 Freightliner if I want to get into the bigger stuff.

It's the pick me up type truck I am working on.

I have a 93 1 ton chev silverado with the blown head gasket and a 97 chev silverado with the 6.5 but an automatic.

Both trucks are around that 300,000 km mark and need some work, I like having 2 when I am running older units instead of relying on just 1.

I pull a 24 foot tri axle stock trailer.

If I could figure out the digital pic thing I would post some pics of my rigs.

The trouble is I am not just running 1 piece of equipment. My field tractor blew the engine this spring and I have to replace that baby as well.

I could spend months just in the shop fixing, but who would do the rest of the work then? Besides I have to use my intuition as to what is most important to fix first. BSE kind of put some regular upgrades on hold and now I am playing catch up.

 

[RoperAB]

Roper,

The 5.9 is a solid block, so no sleeves to worry about. As far as rebuild times, mean time between failure is rated at 350,000 miles. Having said that, I had customers with over a million miles and never touched the internals of the engine. I also pulled down several 300,000 mile engines, and the cross hatch marks were still on the cylinder walls.

The 88 - 93 Cummins didn't really have a particular failure spot that I was ever able to spot. The lift pumps were probably the first to go. Injector pump next most typical failure. Then the turbo. Bear in mind those are massive generalizations. As far as engine internals, I just never saw many failures. A couple bottom ends done in because the owner never changed oil. A few blown head gaskets.

As far as the 92. If its in really nice condition, he'd get $8000 in my neck of the woods in a heartbeat. Dad traded his 92 regular cab 4x4 in ok condition (mechanically excellent, paint faded, 300,000 klicks, interior ok to good) to the dealer for a 95 two years ago. He got $11,000 trade in allowance, and the dealer sold it off the lot that same day for $13,000.

Rod

Wouldnt cylinder sleeves around the pistons be better? This way you could rebuild the top end without pulling the motor out of the truck.
The thing that scares me about buying a second hand old diesel is this.
Diesels tend to work good until they break. Hard to just listen to them and estimate how many miles is left in them. If I bought that 92 and have motor trouble its going to be real easy to spend big bucks on the diesel.
Thing that pi$$es me off is that if you buy a real truck, think Kenworth with a Cat or Cummings the motors and drivetrains have warranty for a half a million miles.
Why cant Dodge and Chevy do the same?
If I bought that 92 Dodge I would probable keep it forever. Those old style Dodges were never all that popular. There isnt much out there for after market stuff. Im just wonder how hard its going to be to get parts for them 10 years down the road. There not exactly a classic like the 86 and older Chevys or 79 and older Fords.

 

[Brad S]

Jason, BSE is the gift that keeps on giving. I know some will starve safety measures to get by, and the gift keeps on giving in spades.


Can you buy a tractor and use it and swap it when you don't need it. You know something glamorous like a JD 5020?

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Wouldnt cylinder sleeves around the pistons be better? This way you could rebuild the top end without pulling the motor out of the truck.
The thing that scares me about buying a second hand old diesel is this.
Diesels tend to work good until they break. Hard to just listen to them and estimate how many miles is left in them. If I bought that 92 and have motor trouble its going to be real easy to spend big bucks on the diesel.
Thing that pi$$es me off is that if you buy a real truck, think Kenworth with a Cat or Cummings the motors and drivetrains have warranty for a half a million miles.
Why cant Dodge and Chevy do the same?
If I bought that 92 Dodge I would probable keep it forever. Those old style Dodges were never all that popular. There isnt much out there for after market stuff. Im just wonder how hard its going to be to get parts for them 10 years down the road. There not exactly a classic like the 86 and older Chevys or 79 and older Fords.

Sleeved blocks have their own issues too. More prone to pitting, less resilient to overheating. As to which I prefer, I don't really have a preference. The solid block on the 5.9 works well, and before you ever wear out the top end of a 5.9, the rest of the vehicle will fall apart around the engine.

On the warranty front, I believe the reason for not having a 500,000 mile warranty on the 5.9 is because of the use it sees. A diesel engine prefers to be kept at a constant RPM. Highway and field tractors rarely vary RPM more than a few hundred while doing their work, and they often stay running for long periods of time. In contrast, the 5.9 in a truck will be shut down and started up many times in a day, and unless its on the highway, its RPMs will be all over the place. Thats hard on a diesel, any diesel. And the 5.9 is often placed in owner's hands who don't have a clue on the proper way to treat a diesel. That the 5.9 is considered a 300,000 mile engine before rebuild is a testament to its strength. But if you abuse it by not changing motor oil at proper intervals, or use cheap blends, you can shorten its life span an incredible amount.

Dodge's Schedule A oil change interval, is, in my opinion, an abusive schedule for many Cummins owners who drive their trucks in city. They needed this type of schedule to keep maintenance costs down for the average owner, however it will lead to a shortened engine life. So Dodge needed to shorten the warranty to ensure they didn't killed by warranty costs when some of the engines made their way over the 200,000 km mark.

As for parts availability, its not going to be tough to find parts for a long, long time. The engine itself is virtually unchanged since 1988, so no problem there. There are over a million CTDs in Dodge trucks (as of 2002, or thereabouts), so Cummins will certainly never abandon the parts. I have no idea how many 5.9s found their way into RVs and Marine engines, but many parts from those engines interchange with the Dodge version.

As for the rest of the truck, the powertrains aren't particularly unique. Getrag and New Venture gearboxes/transfer cases, Dana 60, 70, 80 diffs. The front end components are readily available in the aftermarket, and I doubt we'll see a reduction in supply there anytime soon, simply because the engines will guarantee those trucks will be seeing service long after the gas engines trucks have been mothballed. About the only components I would be worried about are those that are uniquely Dodge, such as interior components, and these can all be replaced by aftermarket goodies. Long and short of it: I don't think you're taking anymore risk from a 1992 Cummins than you are if you buy a 'classic'. The CTDs are considered 'classics' in their own right.

As far as buying, you're right, it can be a little difficult to hear certain knocks. I always use a screwdriver or stethoscope on the engine when buying. I specifically listen for bent push rods (easy and cheap to fix) and bottom end knocks. I'll never buy a CTD from an owner who hasn't used what I consider a good oil (Shell Rotella T, Esso full synthetic, and what I think is the best oil on the market, PetroCanada Full Synthetic, or at least, Duron 15w40). And if the truck has spent a significant amount of time in the city or town, with lots of stops and starts, I probably won't touch it either.

Rod

 

[Jason]

Jason, BSE is the gift that keeps on giving. I know some will starve safety measures to get by, and the gift keeps on giving in spades.


Can you buy a tractor and use it and swap it when you don't need it. You know something glamorous like a JD 5020?

I need something bigger than a 5020.

I pull 33' of cultivator. The tractor I blew up was 210 engine hp. and it was struggling.

I just finished seeding the last 1/4 and with the wet I barely had the traction with a 240 hp front wheel assist that I am renting.

Versatile tractors are plentiful I am looking at one this Saturday. Full 4wd and under 20K (I hope this one goes cheap by auction). If not the dealer has one coming in on trade at about 18K but slightly smaller than the one I am looking at. I think their's is 230 hp the one on Saturday is 270.

 

[Brad S]

Nothing wrong with a versatile. Arround here they are quite prferred over Steigers. If you have time or luck they're sometimes pretty well worth the money. Have you looked here?


http://www.farmauctionguide.com/

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Jason, I'm not sure what your soil is like, but you may want to consider a 2470 Case, if you have a decent Case dealer in the area. 180 drawbar HP, enough for 36 feet of cultivator in wet clay soil, and very tough. Nothing wrong with a Versatile either, but I've seen 2470 Case tractors selling for less than $12 or $14,000. We've used a 2470 for 15 or 16 years, and never put a dime into the engine or transmission. Wouldn't recommend a 2670 though, they're pushing the HP on that engine.

Rod

 

[Jason]

There just aren't many of those old Cases around here. I know of maybe 1.

Versatiles on the other hand, I know of at least 15 for sale.

I wouldn't mind the old green stigers either but they are few in number. There is 1 a neighbor has but it isn't listed for sale.

Anywho the sale on Saturday has 3 dodge cummins in it as well, maybe they will go cheap...might even get a lawn tractor for the jungle of grass around here.

 

[mongo]

Also and easy way to tell how good the bottom end is on a deisel is to pop off the oil fill cap, plug the crank case breather line and then wrap the motor up to highway crusing rpm hold your hand over the oil fill if its pushing out a lot of air the rings are probably gone. Ford has a special tool to give an actuall reading but this is an easy test. 99 and up 7.3 deisels had a lot of problems with dust getting past the air filter and dusting out the engin.