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Dem's want to sue OPEC

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aplusmnt

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Well the Dem's are at it again, another go nowhere legislation that is nothing but ridiculous :roll:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18808477/

The Democrats have the chance to be Hero's and gain the nations support, if they would only wise up. All they have to do is declare a national blend of gasoline, picking the top three clean blends and nationalizing it instead of the numerous blends that are set by states, cities and regions.

Do this and the bottle-necking at the refineries will end and gas prices will drop drastically. Then throw in some new drilling in Alaska and offshore and they are every ones Hero, gas prices come down because of them and they have a dynasty in congress.

Why are they so stupid?
 
Markets are always about supply and demand. We haven't done enough in our country on the demand side--or the supply side.

The substitutes for gas and oil (nuclear energy, wind, solar, etc.) haven't been emphasized in terms of resources. We will run out of oil and every barrel that gets closer to that time will be costlier. It is about time we had a real energy policy in the U.S. that recognized this fact. It takes a LONG TIME to get a nuclear plant up and running. We need to jump start that process and deal with the negatives instead of running from them. We can either spend our time and energy fighting the rest of the world over these resources or we can start getting a handle on our on energy supplies and demand.

I see a lot of commercials by energy companies on how they are changing--yet they remain the same. Looks to me like they are all about keeping the status quo with the energy they control rather than supporting a real change in our energy policy. Why not? They make tons of money keeping things the way they are while we all pay through the nose.
 
Wish the oil compaines would leave all the consumers out of it. They want to sue, spend more of our hard-earned money, only to charge us more. Why don't we all boycott buying gas? How come we keep falling victim to that abuse? Who's going to listen?
 
aplusmnt said:
Well the Dem's are at it again, another go nowhere legislation that is nothing but ridiculous :roll:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18808477/

The Democrats have the chance to be Hero's and gain the nations support, if they would only wise up. All they have to do is declare a national blend of gasoline, picking the top three clean blends and nationalizing it instead of the numerous blends that are set by states, cities and regions.

Do this and the bottle-necking at the refineries will end and gas prices will drop drastically. Then throw in some new drilling in Alaska and offshore and they are every ones Hero, gas prices come down because of them and they have a dynasty in congress.

Why are they so stupid?
Because that's the exact opposite of what they've been doing.....like forever. Repubs try to do these things and get lambasted for "trying to ruin the environment".
 
Cal said:
aplusmnt said:
Well the Dem's are at it again, another go nowhere legislation that is nothing but ridiculous :roll:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18808477/

The Democrats have the chance to be Hero's and gain the nations support, if they would only wise up. All they have to do is declare a national blend of gasoline, picking the top three clean blends and nationalizing it instead of the numerous blends that are set by states, cities and regions.

Do this and the bottle-necking at the refineries will end and gas prices will drop drastically. Then throw in some new drilling in Alaska and offshore and they are every ones Hero, gas prices come down because of them and they have a dynasty in congress.

Why are they so stupid?
Because that's the exact opposite of what they've been doing.....like forever. Repubs try to do these things and get lambasted for "trying to ruin the environment".

What is crazy is I bet if they even picked the most eco friendly blend of gas and mandated it for all the states and cities we would see lower gas prices and for sure less fluctuation in prices. Then their tree hugger friends would be happy because of the greenest blends in all the U.S. and the average Joe would be happy because of more stable prices.
 
There is nothing that the President of the United States can do directly about the price of crude oil.

It does not matter if the POTUS is Repub or Demo. The price of crude oil is determined by the oil futures markets about in this country and other countrys that have oil futures markets also.

And OPEC has a lot of control in the determination of the price of a 42 gallon barrel of crude oil.

IF you thought that the Demos could some how lower the price of crude oil by taking control of Congress and the White House, you are living in a fanasty world.

Jimmy Carter is an example of the fact that a Demo POTUS has no control over the selling price of crude oil. It kept going up during his term in office. There was this little thing of Americans taken hostage in Iran among other items that he was dealing with also.

The price of crude went down in the 1990s. But it had nothing to do with who was the POTUS. It had everything to do with OPEC and its members.

The following below is from Open Choke's insider view of Big Oil.

Quote:


The REAL BIG International Oil Business... The Big Picture... Over 70% of the world's reserves are produced by National Oil Companies... Companies with reserves and production that dwarfs those of ExxonMobil or Shell, and with names you have probably never heard of unless you are in the business... Pedevesa, Aramco, PetroBras, CNOOC, Gazprom, Yukos, Pemex.

Some of these companies are owned by countries in OPEC, some by non-member countries. Of course, being "National Oil Companies", ie those owned ostensibly by "the people" and controlled by the "peoples representatives"... ie politicians and despots, profitability and sustainability aren't the rule, apparently because "the people" as shareholders have a different ethci from "the people" as owners of soemthing they cannot sell. Thus, the politicians use the oil companies to provide other types of value to society (read... keeping 'em in power) by using money that would normally be used to maintain or expand production for the immediate need of bribing the electorate, destabilizing their neighbors, or, if they are firmly in power, to jam into Swiss bank accounts for their own use. "Providing Employment" is a big carrot for the command and control types, which, amazingly enough, minimizes the value of labor

In any case, these largely third world nation-owned companies provide the bulk of the worlds hydrocarbon, and dictate raw commodity oil price, and are not averse to manipulating prices for political or economic gain. This isn't some giant secret... they created a Cartel, OPEC, to do just that... manipulate world oil prices. Last I checked, none of the majors were members. They were BUYERS of that oil.

Saudi Arabia, being the supposed swing producer, which means it can single handedly raise the price of oil or send it to the ground merely by turning a valve, is even rumored to have hedged significant parts of its production before it tanked oil prices in the early 1990's to enforce its control and power over world production... and why not? If I can dictate prices by my actions, I will use the futures market to make money in increasing prices and decreasing prices, since I KNOW what my action will be... That, my friend, is a great bet.

Why would Saudi Arabia LOWER the price of oil? In the early1990's, it was because North Sea production was erodingOPEC pricing power. However, the rest of the world has significantly higher finding and lifting costs that Saudi. So Saudi, which can make a profit on $0.25 per barrel oil compared to US or other Western oil which is profitable above maybe $20 per barrel, hedges the bulk of their production for 12 to 18 months through a network of offshore financial companies, and then announces it will produce 2-4 million more barrels per day. The price drops to $10 dollars per barrel, worldwide capital projects for new oil come to a screeching halt, because no one wants to invest in money losing captial projects, Saudi is still making close to the old price, because they hedged their production financially, and the world oil business is brought to heel to the Saudi swing status once again.

Why would Saudi let the price get higher? Well, you can't hedge forever. You want to maximize your cash flow, but you don't want to let it go so high that alternatives are given financial traction.

So when I think "Big Oil", I think of a couple of Middle Eastern countries. Fat, Brown Men. Their crew are the big, inefficient albatross companies that certainly want to maximize their immediate revenues for personal use, but without paying the necessary maintenance.



The other factor in today's crude oil prices is the value of the Euro to the US Dollar. The US Dollar is weak compared to the Euro. In practical terms, this means that when the OPEC boys go to Europe with there US Dollars, it takes more US Dollars to pay for any purchase than it does with a Euro.

And if you think that the OPEC boys have not noticed this, you are wrong and asleep at the wheel. The price has been allowed to go up higher by OPEC to make up for the loss of purchasing power of the US Dollar that they are paid in.

I SUGGEST THAT WITH ALL YOUR GETTING, GET SOME UNDERSTANDING OF HOW THE CRUDE OIL FUTURES MARKET WORKS FIRST!!!

Then you will be able to figure out who is really in charge of the pricing of the world crude oil sales.

Later on, I will post various links to Oil and Gas industry information sources. And that will include newsletters to at least one oil and gas industry magazine that will include reports on the reasons for the rise and fall in the daily oil future market.
 
But all the "experts" say that the high price now is not because of the lack of crude or the price of crude-- they claim it is because of the lack of refining capability- with several more refineries shutting down recently...

If private industry can't or won't provide a reliable source of what has become a necessity then maybe government should act to provide it--- something along the lines of the coops and incentives that were offered them years back to provide reliable electricity and communication systems....
 
All gas price problems are not linked to Crude Oil. The increase we are seeing by a $1.00 per gallon in just a few weeks has nothing to do with the Price of Crude oil. Crude oil did not rise enough to make that large of an increase at the pump.

Congress can do something, they can give us national blends so the refineries can share gas reserves from state to state and even within their own state. Chicago requires a cleaner blend than the rest of Ill. and things like this cause regional shortages and bottle necking at the refineries.

Also congress could relieve some of the EPA standards for refineries and gas in general. But then the their Global Warming base would throw a fit.

Congress could free up for more drilling offshore and in Alaska which actually could help with the crude oil prices.

Congress can do lots of things to lower the price of gas, and most importantly to stabilize the price to limit such drastic fluctuations that we currently see now.

Now the President, there is not much he can do about it. But Congress Can!
 
You will see this ' oil' crisis fall apart just like Enron did with the electricity deals they were running!! It's all looking like a scam .

Crash...boom...bang it will tumble down.
 
kolanuraven said:
You will see this ' oil' crisis fall apart just like Enron did with the electricity deals they were running!!

Crash...boom...bang it will tumble down.

JOKE ALERT! JOKE ALERT! JOKE ALERT! JOKE ALERT! JOKE ALERT! JOKE ALERT!

Bush and Cheney would never let that happen! :lol:
 
nobody seem too read this part...
The REAL BIG International Oil Business... The Big Picture... Over 70% of the world's reserves are produced by National Oil Companies... Companies with reserves and production that dwarfs those of ExxonMobil or Shell, and with names you have probably never heard of unless you are in the business... Pedevesa, Aramco, PetroBras, CNOOC, Gazprom, Yukos, Pemex.

Some of these companies are owned by countries in OPEC, some by non-member countries. Of course, being "National Oil Companies", ie those owned ostensibly by "the people" and controlled by the "peoples representatives"... ie politicians and despots, profitability and sustainability aren't the rule, apparently because "the people" as shareholders have a different ethci from "the people" as owners of soemthing they cannot sell. Thus, the politicians use the oil companies to provide other types of value to society (read... keeping 'em in power) by using money that would normally be used to maintain or expand production for the immediate need of bribing the electorate, destabilizing their neighbors, or, if they are firmly in power, to jam into Swiss bank accounts for their own use. "Providing Employment" is a big carrot for the command and control types, which, amazingly enough, minimizes the value of labor
 
Maybe it's time to relax the regs on new refineries, maybe even provide tax incentives for construction and expansion. The price of crude now is pretty darn reasonable compared to what's being paid at the pump and it always comes back to the same old thing; lack of refinery capacity.
 
Oldtimer said:
But all the "experts" say that the high price now is not because of the lack of crude or the price of crude-- they claim it is because of the lack of refining capability- with several more refineries shutting down recently...

If private industry can't or won't provide a reliable source of what has become a necessity then maybe government should act to provide it--- something along the lines of the coops and incentives that were offered them years back to provide reliable electricity and communication systems....


Kinda funny how we can have ethanol plants built everywhere so much that it has a real effect on the price of corn, but can't build or add on to a refinery.

Ethanol plants are just as polluting.

It is all a matter of priority and money. Oil companies have no problem keeping a bottleneck that makes them tons of money.
 
JodyWy, you are correct about the price of oil. There is little control by politicians of the price because it comes from an unstable world market. The only thing we can do is encourage domestically produced energy. France gets about 70% of their energy from nuclear. Why are they the world leader in that field and not us?"

Look at one place we have tried to make a difference in oil production on the national scene---Iraq.

Iraq is producing at less than pre-war levels and we "control" the country. They are sitting on the third largest pile of oil and we are unable to increase production to even pre war levels.
 
If only we could control our own spending and accounting practices...

It begins at home.
 
aplusmnt said:
kolanuraven said:
You will see this ' oil' crisis fall apart just like Enron did with the electricity deals they were running!!

Crash...boom...bang it will tumble down.

JOKE ALERT! JOKE ALERT! JOKE ALERT! JOKE ALERT! JOKE ALERT! JOKE ALERT!

Bush and Cheney would never let that happen! :lol:

I live close to an expert in refining, have sat on the mans porch many time's the things the government does to curtail production is amazing.
We haven't built a refinery in this country since the 70's and think demand hasn't risen in 35+ years. They have to make 100's of different blends to meet EPA regulations and each blend can only be sold in that area. Then we have the ethanol issue subidizing corn farmers to grow corn to blend to gasoline that lowers mpg resulting in higher consumption.
 
Caustic Burno, you mention an economic concept here. That concept is to differentiate and then discriminate. By doing so, you can increase your profits.

The feds have not had a national policy on gas formulation and hence it has been up to the states to come up with their own policies. That allows different gas formulations to be sold in the U.S.---part of differentiation. Then they can have "supply shortages" of those particular blends, which leads to higher prices because of supply and demand forces--discrimination in price for different parts of the country.

Economists are hard at work for big companies and our politicians are taking the big bucks from them as we are getting screwed.

No wonder politicians are so low in the ratings. They aren't doing their job to protect us from big business crap.
 
Econ101 said:
Oldtimer said:
But all the "experts" say that the high price now is not because of the lack of crude or the price of crude-- they claim it is because of the lack of refining capability- with several more refineries shutting down recently...

If private industry can't or won't provide a reliable source of what has become a necessity then maybe government should act to provide it--- something along the lines of the coops and incentives that were offered them years back to provide reliable electricity and communication systems....


Kinda funny how we can have ethanol plants built everywhere so much that it has a real effect on the price of corn, but can't build or add on to a refinery.

Ethanol plants are just as polluting.

It is all a matter of priority and money. Oil companies have no problem keeping a bottleneck that makes them tons of money.

I am no expert on this, but I thought that most if not all ethanol plants are so small that they easily can meet the EPA standards. But oil companies deal in large amounts that it is not cost affective for them to build the same small scale operations.

Many of the existing refineries can not even build on because of the extra pollution would make them go over the allotted EPA standards. Size does matter in refineries, at least with the EPA holding the measuring stick.
 
Econ101 said:
Caustic Burno, you mention an economic concept here. That concept is to differentiate and then discriminate. By doing so, you can increase your profits.

The feds have not had a national policy on gas formulation and hence it has been up to the states to come up with their own policies. That allows different gas formulations to be sold in the U.S.---part of differentiation. Then they can have "supply shortages" of those particular blends, which leads to higher prices because of supply and demand forces--discrimination in price for different parts of the country.

Economists are hard at work for big companies and our politicians are taking the big bucks from them as we are getting screwed.

No wonder politicians are so low in the ratings. They aren't doing their job to protect us from big business crap.

Unless you call the environmentalist big business I think you are missing the mark here. You are correct the Feds should do something about setting some national standards for the blends of gasoline. The Dem's need to be passing legislation to this affect instead of worry about suing OPEC or Windfall taxes on the oil companies.

They are more worried about how they can get more money in Washington than solving the problems that cause higher gas prices.
 

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