Ecological goods and services

[Big Muddy rancher]

Tonight per and I had about a hour long phone conversation about Market based Ecological Goods and Services EGS.
As ranchers we produce EGS in many forms, from providing habitat for endangered species, harvestable wildlife and water shed protection.
How do we get rewarded for what we do with out direct payments from government?
Much of what we produce is for the greater good and much of it is "Protected" by the government but much of it exists today because of the ranchers resistance to government programs of the past.

I'm hoping for one of those classic ranchers posts where we can get lots of ideas with the minimum argument.

 

[per]

If someone wants to argue, I'm here for ya BMR. :wink: :!:

 

[Faster horses]

"Not fully understanding the situation, I cannot answer that question
with any great degree of accuracy."

(my late father's words.)

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

If someone wants to argue, I'm here for ya BMR. :wink: :!:

Tonight you reminded me of that old poster from my college days.

A couple of buzzards were sitting in a tree and one says to the other
"Patience my ash , I'm gonna kill something." :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Soapweed]

If someone wants to argue, I'm here for ya BMR. :wink: :!:

Tonight you reminded me of that old poster from my college days.

A couple of buzzards were sitting in a tree and one says to the other
"Patience my ash , I'm gonna kill something." :lol: :lol: :lol:

I don't have any advice, but an old poster from my college days, with an appropriate picture, said:

"When you are up to your ash in alligators, don't forget the objective was to drain the swamp." :roll:

 

[burnt]

There is no way that I know of other than direct payments.

Tax credits would be fine if one was taxable, but too often in this business We're not.

Unless, of course, there would be a significant reduction on property taxes - now there's a place where there might be some possibilities?

But we do indeed provide a lot of benefits to the country that fail to ever give us n appropriate return.

 

[Soapweed]

There is no way that I know of other than direct payments.

Tax credits would be fine if one was taxable, but too often in this business We're not.

Unless, of course, there would be a significant reduction on property taxes - now there's a place where there might be some possibilities?

But we do indeed provide a lot of benefits to the country that fail to ever give us an appropriate return.

The Liberal "environmentalists" hate ranchers, but they shouldn't. If they only realized it, ranchers are their best allies. Any land that stays as a normal ranch ends up supporting the rancher's cows, as well as all the wildlife that has always been there. This includes snail darters, spotted owls, and every other critter that the "environmentalists" think they need to protect. Cattle are very compatible with most wildlife, except for wolves. Birds love to hang right with the cattle, because as the livestock graze, insects become available for the birds to eat. Deer and elk prosper in areas where cattle are managed and taken care of by ranchers. When the ranchers and cattle are kicked off the land, wildlife doesn't thrive nearly as well.

The trouble with any direct payments, or cost-share plan, is that the government gets their slimy fingers in the rancher's pot and tries to gain control. The payee is then looked at as just another leech sucking off the government's teat, even though the government wouldn't have any milk coming out of their "teat" if it wasn't for ranchers and other hard working folks supplying the "feed" for the government "cow" to give the "milk" in the first place. It's a vicious circle.

 

[per]

The EGS's we provide are exponentially greater than the species that live above the surface. There is the whole function of the watershed, nutrient cycle, carbon sequestering and recreational opportunities. Close to large populations the real estate value prices in the EGS including the space and view scape.

I am not a fan of Government payments at all. I would like to see some sort of functional Marketplace for EGS that isn't muddied by regulation. An example would be the ability that some States have of paid hunting. If you want Elk on my landscape, make it possible for me to make a profit and I will surely provide Elk habitat.

BMR is right, there is a brain trust here that could drive this discussion to a meaningful recourse. We are loosing this conversation to the very environmentalists that should be our partners and we will end up with a giant unfunctionable park with a non sustainable ecosystem.

 

[burnt]

With the rabid mantra that the environmental movement spews, it is unfortunate that they hold the clout they have. Not all farmers/ranchers are models of sustainability and proper care, but by far the majority are.

Environmentalists, on the other hand, seem to be largely anti-production, anti-human and anti-reality. Yet they get more credit than food producers because of their strident and sensational approach.

Pretty hard to compete with that when one is quietly going about doing a good job of what we do.

 

[rancherfred]

Those things that we provide for the greater good because of our management shouldn't be looked at as something we should necessarily be paid for. If you aren't being paid to provide habitat for wildlife like deer, elk, or speed goats are you going to change your management practices? Probably not, those animals exist on our farms and ranches because of the management we do to maximize the productivity for the cattle and crops. We are essentially already being paid, the other things that exist because of our management are, in my mind, gravy. Until the wildlife becomes so plentiful that they actually become destructive to our management and income I think I will continue to enjoy them.

The worst thing that can happen to us is for the govt. to start trying to "reward" us for things that we are doing on our own and would do on our own regardless of whether the "incentive" is there or not. The problem with all of these govt. programs that are going to "reward" good stewardship is that what is actually good stewardship doesn't necessarily line up with what the politicians and bureaucrats identify as good stewardship. That results in huge market distortions as people immediately start pursuing the payment instead of continuing to manage based upon what is best for the range or cropland. You can not avoid this problem. Here in the US we have witnessed all sorts of different schemes to keep the money flowing to the people in "real" need. They never, ever work as intended. People will always find a way to game the system. They will go to more work to game the system than if they had just applied themselves and done things the right way. As far as I am concerned it is far better to have the govt. completely out of it than to have them trying to choose winners and losers and then policing the programs. If the people running the programs and policing them actually knew how best to manage this land that we operate on they would be doing it on their own. Remember the old saying, those who can do, the rest teach? I think it needs even more clarification, those who can't teach work for the government making sure the rest of us idiots do things "right."

 

[gcreekrch]

Tonight per and I had about a hour long phone conversation about Market based Ecological Goods and Services EGS.
As ranchers we produce EGS in many forms, from providing habitat for endangered species, harvestable wildlife and water shed protection.
How do we get rewarded for what we do with out direct payments from government?
Much of what we produce is for the greater good and much of it is "Protected" by the government but much of it exists today because of the ranchers resistance to government programs of the past.

I'm hoping for one of those classic ranchers posts where we can get lots of ideas with the minimum argument.

As has been said, "programs" never work out. Tax incentives, hunting and fishing days that could be charged for, and reduction of regulation would be good starting points.

Sorry BMR my sleep deprived mind is not itself this morning.

The best we could hope for is if the govt. would just leave us alone.

 

[Anonymous]

One way of payment is leasing it out to outfitters- or charging hunters... In Montana the Fish & Game will pay you a fee based on an average number of hunters per year for you leaving your land open to hunting under the block management program... But if you have prime hunting land- you can get much more leasing it out to outfitters to use...

 

[Hayguy]

does this mean that i have to pay Per to go fencing on his place? :wink: :lol: :lol:

 

[per]

does this mean that i have to pay Per to go fencing on his place? :wink: :lol: :lol:

This means we are trying to find a way to be fully compensated for the commodities we actually produce. A recent study puts a value of around $1900 / acre / year of water is returned to the aquafers in a healthy native range on the South East Slopes of Alberta. That is a service a good steward provides society yet his only way to profit from that is through some sort of commodity sale (cattle, etc).

We produce more than the sum of what we can sell. Yes, good stewardship is more profitable for our core business but society is asking for these things to be protected and that usually means regulation that hamstrings many of the tools used in good stewardship. If we could figure out a functioning marketplace for EGS then the draconian regulatory approach would be unnecessary.

At one time food was provided as a public good. Now it is a commodity.

 

[PATB]

A good place to start would be the government the pay for all their requirements and mandates. It is a good thing we do not get all the government we pay for. :shock: :shock:

 

[burnt]

This might seem really picky, but one thing that burns my butt is having to pay for a license to hunt deer and turkeys that are born or hatched on my farms, live there, eat the crops that I plant and fertilize, run through the fences that I maintain (sometimes causing misplaced livestock if I don't find it immediately), and spray herbicides on weeds (like proso millet that the Conservation Authority planted in wetland) that the wildfowlhave dragged onto my fields.

And then they want me to PAY for the right to hunt it ON MY OWN LAND?

 

[Hayguy]

:agree:

 

[Anonymous]

This might seem really picky, but one thing that burns my butt is having to pay for a license to hunt deer and turkeys that are born or hatched on my farms, live there, eat the crops that I plant and fertilize, run through the fences that I maintain (sometimes causing misplaced livestock if I don't find it immediately), and spray herbicides on weeds (like proso millet that the Conservation Authority planted in wetland) that the wildfowlhave dragged onto my fields.

And then they want me to PAY for the right to hunt it ON MY OWN LAND?

That is one other thing you get from the Fish and Game if you participate in the Montana Block Management program that allows hunting on your land- they send you a free Sportsmans License which allows you to hunt and fish anywhere in the state... Not that big of deal- but worth $85..

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

Here is a thought from a friend.

" A market for EG&S is created every time a person or group asks for regulations or protection be put on lands we manage. The trouble is they run to Government instead of offering to pay the producers who actually provide the service. If the Gov. explained to them that they had to pay the asking price to said producers I'm betting a lot of of what they value now might not seem so precious to them. "

 

[lefty]

Minnesota DNR. wants to be in charge till animals get out of control . Then they walk away . deer , Turkeys , beaver, wolves . come to mind . If they cant fix it by 4pm . it cant be fixed .
30 years ago in MN. The FMHA farms that went broke were taken out of the federal farm program . & Given to the state DNR & called wildlife management areas , So the little green men could drive around & look at them . These lands are still locked away to this day . They pay what they call inlou of taxes . on these lands which is taxes paid with our tax money . Myself I would keep the gate locked . I am not sure who really owns the land even now . yours & mine I mean .