DOC HARRIS said:
To perform a thorough EVALUATION of any animal, it is necessary to know the purpose(s) for which he is to be used. This particular bull could be classified as a CATCH 22 - because he is what can be considered an "IDIOMATIC SEEDSTOCK SIRE. - or - "MATERMINAL" - part Maternal - part Terminal! That terminology comes about as close as I can express as to what the majority of Beef Cattle Breeders are really attempting to achieve in their breeding protocols. That is - a workable, pragmatic BALANCE in their breeding bulls and cow herd genetics and phenotype, taking into consideration the Maternal aspects of the herd, and the Terminal producing abilities of their breeding program. "BALANCE" here is the operative word! We are attempting to get a herd which will do two jobs at the same time - PERFECTLY! That is - produce calves which can "charge on" like gang-busters and make an optimal PROFIT in the feedlot, and also be able to provide the Rancher with replacement heifers - from the exact same genetic mating protocols! Very difficult, if not impossible to achieve, given our current optimal available genetics in our breeding seedstock. It is either Maternal - or Terminal. But not BOTH - OPTIMALLY!
That is why the term "Idiomatic" here. Neither goal can be achieved with proper BALANCE utilizing one breed only, although I imagine I will get a full ration of disclaimers of that statement from all kinds of Beef Breeders who are touting their own particular breed! And that is fine, because that is what the business is all about - attempting to arrive at perfection in the Beef Breeding Business. But - I still maintain that NO ONE BREED can do EVERYTHING that is necessary to accomplish perfection and attain the "Be All and Do All" of Beef Breeding. That effort has been in effect for hundreds of years, and the ultimate has not been arrived at as yet.
I feel that no one will argue the fact that each generation of matings has made remarkable improvements in the efforts to capture perfection, but so far - that has been elusive. This is the primary purpose for the successful implementation of "Crossbreeding" protocols into Beef Breeding Technics, and that is a "whole 'nother thing" in our Industry!
Now to evaluate the Bull at hand: The front feet present a fine, solid example of a bull that can travel hard distances and seek vulnerable cows to breed. That is his job. His bone size is large enough to support his size, and his expected mature final weight - gaining almost 5 and a half pounds per day! And here is a Catch 22 factor, inasmuch as he will produce heifers, and ultimately mature cows, which will be TOO big for our current efforts to keep our breeding females around 1250 lbs at six years of age, or after they produce their third calf. Another 'darned if we do and darned if we don't" situation! Also, while the discussion is on his feet and legs, his hind legs are sickle-hocked and cow-hocked - which will preclude his being able to be a strong producer for more than a couple of years or so because his stifles will not be able to accomodate his weight while breeding cows, and he wil become unusable as a breeding bull. He will be gone with the "Westwind", if you will :roll: .
He is a little restricted in his heartgirth, and his topline is terrible! And it is NOT caused by 'the way he is standing'. That is an easy excuse that is used too often to obviate explaining a fault in an animal. He is standing that way because his feet and legs anatomy dictate that he "stand that way!" He is a little 'wasty' around his neck and brisket, but that is not as big a problem as some breeders contend that it is. It just should be noted, is all. His body phenotype is not bad compared to current average Angus bulls, but his glaring faults preclude his being used as a herd bull, because he will pass them on to his progeny- IN MY OPINION. It hurts me to put down the genetics of DHD Traveler 6807 and Rito 6I6, but this bull is what HE is, and that is who we are considering at this instance.
All of these phenotypic observations are being made from ONE PICTURE - which is an unacceptable method of evaluating any animal. But it is here, and all that we have, therefore that is my recapitulation.
It would be wonderful if we could assimilate all of the POSITIVE factors of an animal into one individual, and eliminate all of the NEGATIVE one's from the same animal. Then we would certainly have our IDIOMATIC SEEDSTOCK SIRE - or - MATERMINAL PERFECTION
DOC HARRIS
Doc...
Hmmm, he was born to an eleven year old cow, who is now 12 and still in the herd and calved on time. He's a frame 5, if that. Has a yearling weight EPD of 65, with his dam's YW EPD of 43 (oh yeah, a pile of "expected growth" there) and his sire's YW EPD of 72....I'd hardly call that terminal or big growth genetics.
Just cause he gained 5+ pounds per day and did it efficiently does not mean that he'll continue that through his entire life...I think you should know that!!! Heck, I don't even have enough "degrees" to melt ice, but you do...
As a matter of fact I'd bet he's close to being matured out and has probably done most of growing as we speak. Yes, he'll gain some, but I'd bet not much. According to a 1991 article from Boggs at SDSU, a frame 5 equates to a mature cow weight of 1175 pounds with Choice grading slaughter steers and heifers weighing 1150 and 1000 respectively (
http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/beef/as1091w.htm ) I'll admit today's cattle are not the same "kind" of cattle as this research was likely done on, but I think it can give a us a good guide.
Topline...I have seen you call one of the worst topped bulls (who was standing perfectly, by the way) I've ever seen, the best thing since sliced bread, and yet you hack on this poor bull with a bad picture...come on Doc. What gives?
I don't own the bull, don't even know the owner of the bull, so I don't have a horse in this race. I do think it's rather remarkable that he is as complete as he is. Generally speaking efficient bulls don't generally gain well, and vice versa. Further I'd say that your typical bull that gains 5+ pounds a day is a a heck of a lot bigger than a frame 5.
He is standing the way he is because he is on a downhill slope on a hill in West Virginia. My one and only trip to WV (and not even to this town) tells me that there are not very many "flat" spots in the Mountaineer State. I'll give you that he might have a little set to his hocks. From what I've seen of today's Angus cattle, they are too damn straight, so I'd guess they could use a little of his set. Irregardless...he still has perfect feet. Somewhere in all the data WVU collects on these bulls, they give a structure score. I believe this guy scored a "3" Here is what their scores for structure mean, "STRUCTURE SCORE: This is expressed as a score of
1 to 5 and is a measure of skeletal correctness. A score of 5 indicates very straight shoulders and/or rear legs. A score of 1 indicates extreme set to the hind legs. A score of 3 is optimal."
Rip him apart as you will, I think he has a lot more merit than you give him credit for...however, thank God and our Troops, this is a free country, and we are blessed to share our opinion. I just have to disagree with you, and I'm sure we'll agree to disagree.
Likely you, nor I will ever see how he turns out unless one of us, or a major semen company buys him. If I had Angus cattle, I'd give some long hard consideration on buying him. I gather that you wouldn't buy him, so I guess neither of us will likely ever see him at maturity or his offspring. Probably some commercial breeder will buy him and probably be happy with his performance. It would be interesting to follow him through life though.
I do have to ask, what frame and what level of gain do you want him to have to meet your breeding objectives?
Cheers---
TTB :wink:
) to do that and, for what it's worth, I noticed it and I appreciated it.