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Either We Abide By The Constitution Or We Don't

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Mike

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Let's hear OT spout that he swore an oath to the Constitution now.
"ALL bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives"
There is no doubt the penalty contained in ObamCare is a tax. In fact they call it a "Tax Penalty".
http://obamacarefacts.com/obamacare-individual-mandate.php

The Affordable Care Act is back at center stage in the courts on Thursday with yet another legal challenge that aims to derail President Obama's massive health care reform law.

Rather than attacking the individual mandate or the so-called contraceptive mandate, this lawsuit challenges a legislative maneuver used by Senate majority leader Harry Reid (D) of Nevada to pass the bill five years ago.

The little-noticed legal battle is being waged by a conservative public interest law group, the Pacific Legal Foundation (PLF). It seeks to enforce a constitutional command: "All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives."


RECOMMENDED: How much do you know about the US Constitution? A quiz.

Lawyers for the group charge that the Affordable Care Act (ACA) was first passed by the Senate and only later approved by the House in violation of the Constitution's Origination Clause.

The Obama administration rejects the challenge. "The Supreme Court has never invalidated an Act of Congress on the basis of the Origination Clause, and this suit presents no reason to break new ground," Justice Department Attorney Alisa Klein wrote in her brief.

The case is set for argument on Thursday at 9:30 a.m. before three judges at the federal appeals court in Washington.

If the judges agree with the Pacific Legal Foundation, the decision would invalidate the Affordable Care Act and send health care reform back to Congress for a do-over.

If the judges agree with the Obama administration that the law was properly passed, the PLF lawyers are likely to petition the US Supreme Court to examine the issue.

It is unclear how receptive the appeals court panel will be to the PLF challenge. One of the three appeals court judges assigned to the case was appointed by Bill Clinton, the other two were appointed by President Obama.

The central issue in the case is whether in the scramble to assemble enough votes in the Senate to pass the Affordable Care Act, Democratic leaders in Congress took a shortcut that the Constitution does not permit.

The Origination Clause requires that bills seeking to raise revenue from the American people emerge first from the legislative body closest to the people themselves. The requirement is designed to maximize political accountability by forcing such measures to win initial approval among lawmakers in the House, where each member must seek reelection every two years.

Senators, with their six-year terms, are more insulated from popular pressure.

In addition to requiring that all revenue raising bills originate in the House, the Constitution permits the Senate to "propose or concur with amendments as on other bills."

Government lawyers cite that portion of the Origination Clause as support for the Reid maneuver.

In the runup to the vote on the ACA, Senator Reid used a "shell bill" to satisfy the technical requirement that the legislation arrive from the House.

He used the Service Members Home Ownership Tax Act of 2009 as a template for the maneuver. That law, HR 3590, offered tax credits to military members who were first-time homebuyers.

Reid eliminated the entire text of the six-page law and replaced it with the 2,000-plus page bill that became the Affordable Care Act. All that remained of the Home Ownership Tax Act was the bill number, HR 3590.

After winning Senate approval, the "amended" HR 3590 was sent to the House where the Democratic majority approved it. The bill was then sent to President Obama who signed it into law in March 2010.

In defending the procedure, Ms. Klein says HR 3590 was not a bill to raise revenue, it was a bill to reform health care, and, thus, does not trigger requirements of the Origination Clause.

She also argues that HR 3590 did, in fact, originate in the House of Representatives and that it doesn't matter that the entire substance of that House-passed bill involving tax credits was deleted and substituted with the Senate-written ACA.

Klein says there is nothing improper or even unusual about the ACA's passage.

Replacing the text of a House-passed bill with Senate-approved text as an amendment is permissible under the Origination Clause, Klein said.

The check against abuse of this procedure, she said, is that any bill amended by the Senate must also later be approved by the House.

Klein quotes an authority no less than James Madison, a Founding Father, for support of the government's position.

"You may safely lodge this power of amending with the senate," Madison told the Virginia ratifying convention in 1788. "When a bill is sent with proposed amendments to the House of Representatives, if they find the alternatives defective, they are not conclusive. The House of Representatives are the judges of their propriety."

Lawyers with the PLF reject government claims that the ACA is a health reform measure unrelated to raising revenue.

The US Supreme Court in 2010 upheld the constitutionality of the ACA as a permissible use of Congress's taxing power, they said. The tax penalty associated with the health care mandate is expected to raise $4 billion a year in general government revenue by 2017.

The PLF lawyers also argue that replacing the entire text of HR 3590 was not a legitimate way to amend a statute seeking to raise revenue from the people.

"This was not a lawful 'amendment' of HR 3590 as required by the Origination Clause, because the subject matter of the one had nothing whatsoever to do with the other," the PLF brief says.

The lawyers said the Supreme Court has held that only Senate amendments that are germane to the subject matter of the underlying House bill can avoid scrutiny under the Origination Clause.

"If the Origination Clause has any meaning, it must be to bar the Senate from creating from scratch any bills for raising revenue," the PLF brief says.

"While the Senate may in most cases have the power to 'gut-and-amend' a bill by striking and replacing its entire contents, no court has ever held that the Senate can use such a procedure to originate a bill for raising revenue," the PLF lawyers say.

The case is Sissel v. US Department of Health and Human Services (13-5202).
 
SCOTUS already ruled to leave it there... Until they/or subsequent legislation overturn it - it is the law of the land...

Problem that has developed with a dysfunctional Congress is that major law will be made by Presidential mandate and the Courts....
 
Oldtimer said:
SCOTUS already ruled to leave it there... Until they/or subsequent legislation overturn it - it is the law of the land...


Nope, nothing in that case was about the "Origination Clause". Nothing went to SCOTUS about HOW the bill was passed.

And the "Origination Clause" IS in the Constitution, isn't it? If SCOTUS has a choice, they will be forced to strike it down. No other option. :lol: :lol:
"All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills."

Article I, Section 7, Clause 1

Only thing SCOTUS could say is the bill is NOT "for" raising Revenue, which would be a lie because the penalty is indeed a tax. :lol:
 
Oldtimer said:
SCOTUS already ruled to leave it there... Until they/or subsequent legislation overturn it - it is the law of the land...

Problem that has developed with a dysfunctional Congress is that major law will be made by Presidential mandate and the Courts....

So you do or do not agree that the Constitution state's the following?

"All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills."

Article I, Section 7, Clause 1

And you do or do not agree that this bill started in the Senate by the complete gutting of any language other than the original number of the bill?
 
In the runup to the vote on the ACA, Senator Reid used a "shell bill" to satisfy the technical requirement that the legislation arrive from the House.

He used the Service Members Home Ownership Tax Act of 2009 as a template for the maneuver. That law, HR 3590, offered tax credits to military members who were first-time homebuyers.

Reid eliminated the entire text of the six-page law and replaced it with the 2,000-plus page bill that became the Affordable Care Act. All that remained of the Home Ownership Tax Act was the bill number, HR 3590.

After winning Senate approval, the "amended" HR 3590 was sent to the House where the Democratic majority approved it. The bill was then sent to President Obama who signed it into law in March 2010
 
I finally see the comedy in all this. I never understood how funny all this Independent reasoning was.

SCOTUS already ruled to leave it there... Until they/or subsequent legislation overturn it - it is the law of the land...

So the Constitution is actually the Supreme law of the land that all other laws are to be measured against, and it hasn't been replaced. However, don't use the pre-existing and Supreme law of the land to dispute the new law of the land, because it is the law of the land?

Or, it IS the law of the land, unless the president decides to unilaterally change it without Congress making the changes- which is also against The Supreme law of the land?

Funny stuff for sure! :lol: :lol:
Comedy if I've ever seen comedy. :lol: :lol:

Problem that has developed with a dysfunctional Congress is that major law will be made by Presidential mandate and the Courts....

Again, great stuff. We should get a good actor to read this.

The health care law is the law of the land and nothing can change that, period. Except the president of course as we've already covered.

Now we move to the president and the Court being left to write the laws since Congress is in somewhat of a stale mate (as designed by the founders for times such as we find ourselves in now) breaking again the Supreme law of the land. The court can not rule on the constitutionality of the obamacare's creation since it is the law of the land. But it can, write any new laws it desires when Congress is functioning in a stalemate, as at times planned and expected. :lol:


Re-cap on things necessary for Libertarians to defend obamacare:

1. Constitution- (Evil) It was the law of the land for 230ish years, but is no longer the law of the land and trumped by obamacare.
2. obamacare- is now the supreme law of the land, but can be altered upon the whim of the president; not reviewable by Supreme Court
3. The president can write any law he desires.
4. The court can write any law they desire, as long as they don't interfere with obamacare.
 
I think the SCOTUS has found themselves in a dilemma - where they can either back the health care "mandate" as originally proposed by Nixon and then backed for years by the Heritage Foundation/Conservative lawmakers (and now in Obamacare) as the way of making everyone accept some level of responsibility
OR
in the alternative throw out the law making all medical facilities/hospitals have to treat patients with no proof of insurance or ability to pay (in which way too often the cost goes back on those folks that are responsible and can pay or have insurance)...

Doing nothing is no longer an option- and without moving forward, the catch 22 of nonresponsible/nonpayers continuing to spiral up the cost of healthcare/healthcare insurance will eventually bankrupt the country....

I just don't see a supposed civilized/Christian following country throwing folks out onto the street to suffer or die if they can't prove up front the ability to pay or having insurance...

Which leaves us right back with what Nixon and the conservatives of the 80's/90's developed to make everyone accept responsibility - THE MANDATE with a penalty for any that did not accept it, just like with our States liability insurance for vehicles...
 
Oldtimer said:
I think the SCOTUS has found themselves in a dilemma - where they can either back the health care "mandate" as originally proposed by Nixon and then backed for years by the Heritage Foundation/Conservative lawmakers (and now in Obamacare) as the way of making everyone accept some level of responsibility
OR
in the alternative throw out the law making all medical facilities/hospitals have to treat patients with no proof of insurance or ability to pay (in which way too often the cost goes back on those folks that are responsible and can pay or have insurance)...

Doing nothing is no longer an option- and without moving forward, the catch 22 of nonresponsible/nonpayers continuing to spiral up the cost of healthcare/healthcare insurance will eventually bankrupt the country....

I just don't see a supposed civilized/Christian following country throwing folks out onto the street to suffer or die if they can't prove up front the ability to pay or having insurance...

Which leaves us right back with what Nixon and the conservatives of the 80's/90's developed to make everyone accept responsibility - THE MANDATE with a penalty for any that did not accept it, just like with our States liability insurance for vehicles...


So were we, or were we not a civilized/Christian nation 70 years ago?


Secondly, why would all facilities be required to treat anyone without proof of ability to pay? Went to a urgent care a year or so ago. They wouldn't let me past the door till I paid the exam fee. There wasn't much of line like there was a couple miles away at the hospital ER.

At the ER, they triage so the critical are cared for first. Seems like a great way of doing business. Those that can't pay, if critical are stabilized, if not critical, can wait until resources are available.

There is a reason that urgent care centers are cropping up everywhere.

By the way, you do realize that prior to zerocare, more people received care for less money- this has been proven over and over. Knew a lady that had no health insurance- zero. Zero ability to pay. Yet she had a major back surgery performed fusing two vertebra and placing a rod in her back. Took 6 months to happen, but it happened. That is where we were. Now anyone wanting something done will be in a huge line.

You fell for the bait by focusing on insurance. It isn't insurance that is important but total cost and ability to provide health care.
 
Oldtimer said:
I think the SCOTUS has found themselves in a dilemma - where they can either back the health care "mandate" as originally proposed by Nixon and then backed for years by the Heritage Foundation/Conservative lawmakers (and now in Obamacare) as the way of making everyone accept some level of responsibility
OR
in the alternative throw out the law making all medical facilities/hospitals have to treat patients with no proof of insurance or ability to pay (in which way too often the cost goes back on those folks that are responsible and can pay or have insurance)...

Doing nothing is no longer an option- and without moving forward, the catch 22 of nonresponsible/nonpayers continuing to spiral up the cost of healthcare/healthcare insurance will eventually bankrupt the country....

I just don't see a supposed civilized/Christian following country throwing folks out onto the street to suffer or die if they can't prove up front the ability to pay or having insurance...

Which leaves us right back with what Nixon and the conservatives of the 80's/90's developed to make everyone accept responsibility - THE MANDATE with a penalty for any that did not accept it, just like with our States liability insurance for vehicles...

WTF? Your post is totally off topic..............

What's this have to do with the "Origination Clause" and proper Constitutional protocol/process? :roll:
 
1511075_711844155545100_5741491772148628788_n.jpg
 
Mike said:
Oldtimer said:
I think the SCOTUS has found themselves in a dilemma - where they can either back the health care "mandate" as originally proposed by Nixon and then backed for years by the Heritage Foundation/Conservative lawmakers (and now in Obamacare) as the way of making everyone accept some level of responsibility
OR
in the alternative throw out the law making all medical facilities/hospitals have to treat patients with no proof of insurance or ability to pay (in which way too often the cost goes back on those folks that are responsible and can pay or have insurance)...

Doing nothing is no longer an option- and without moving forward, the catch 22 of nonresponsible/nonpayers continuing to spiral up the cost of healthcare/healthcare insurance will eventually bankrupt the country....

I just don't see a supposed civilized/Christian following country throwing folks out onto the street to suffer or die if they can't prove up front the ability to pay or having insurance...

Which leaves us right back with what Nixon and the conservatives of the 80's/90's developed to make everyone accept responsibility - THE MANDATE with a penalty for any that did not accept it, just like with our States liability insurance for vehicles...

WTF? Your post is totally off topic..............

What's this have to do with the "Origination Clause" and proper Constitutional protocol/process? :roll:

That is a "progressive-libertarian's" concession of being wrong. It is subtle in hopes of no one noticing.

What is comical.... actually hilarious in his case, is that his distraction is even wrong. And they want to perpetuate this ridiculousness on all of us.


What happened to, if you don't want to be a slave.... don't be a slave?
Or if you don't want to waste money.... don't waste money?
If you don't want to pay for someone else's health care... don't pay for someone else's health care?
 

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