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Eliminating costs is always better than reducing costs

Kit does feed mineral, and he also hires the local auctioneer to sell the cattle. It's obviously making him money, and he's got a gosh awful big customer base. Seems to me his deal's workin' out OK. But I really don't want to start a 'nother argument over "I'm right and you're wrong" right before bedtime. Just my thoughts on it.
 
Ya, he used to but now, at least as of last Nov., he's got another guy doing it. I like his heifers. I'll have to post a pic of one of the cows I bought at his ale.
 
One advantage that Kit has, he not only is raising commercial cattle in simplistic fashion, but he is capitalizing greatly on "selling his system" to others with bull sales, etc. This is not taking anything away from the man or his system, but others copying his methods will not have this advantage. They will also not have the "master's touch" that Kit himself utilizes. I do much respect the man, but I have seen some wrecks with some of his followers.
 
Some of us here are not on the same page. There is a big difference between cruelty, neglect, and starving cattle and providing forage that the cattle have to harvest. Providing hay during the very cold snaps or deep snow is a no brainer but if you could save $100, $200, or more per head to winter each cow with no detrimental effects wouldn't that peak your interest just a little bit? Big steers are bringing home around $600 to $625 this fall. Near as I can figure around here anyway it will cost around $210 to summer each cow and $270 or so to winter her so that comes to $480 just for grass and hay in the traditional ranch setting. Now average the light steers and heifers and the picture becomes kind of gloomy.

I'm not telling anyone anything that they don't already know, I'm just wondering out loud if there was a way to cut expenses it might be worth taking a look at. Just because a guy has a pile of feed doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea to feed it. I'm just playing devil's advocate. That's the reason I enjoy this site so much, I might just learn something. Most of the ranchers who are still in this business know how to tighten their belts or they wouldn't still be in business. Just food for thought.
 
Big Swede said:
Some of us here are not on the same page. There is a big difference between cruelty, neglect, and starving cattle and providing forage that the cattle have to harvest. Providing hay during the very cold snaps or deep snow is a no brainer but if you could save $100, $200, or more per head to winter each cow with no detrimental effects wouldn't that peak your interest just a little bit? Big steers are bringing home around $600 to $625 this fall. Near as I can figure around here anyway it will cost around $210 to summer each cow and $270 or so to winter her so that comes to $480 just for grass and hay in the traditional ranch setting. Now average the light steers and heifers and the picture becomes kind of gloomy.

I'm not telling anyone anything that they don't already know, I'm just wondering out loud if there was a way to cut expenses it might be worth taking a look at. Just because a guy has a pile of feed doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea to feed it. I'm just playing devil's advocate. That's the reason I enjoy this site so much, I might just learn something. Most of the ranchers who are still in this business know how to tighten their belts or they wouldn't still be in business. Just food for thought.
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It is interesting to dig out all the facts with good old-fashioned discussion, and in playing the devil's advocate on both sides of the arguement. An interesting aspect of marketing calves this fall, is that the bigger they are, they more they bring per pound. That goes against the conventional wisdom that Kit preaches. He has always maintained that the lighter calves bring more per pound. Granted, they usually do, but they are not doing it this year.
 
As the price of corn keeps dropping I wonder if that will hold true much longer. I am more inclined each day to feed those steers out this year instead of selling feeders. Who knows, with the roller coaster ride we've been on lately anything is possible.
 
Big Swede said:
As the price of corn keeps dropping I wonder if that will hold true much longer. I am more inclined each day to feed those steers out this year instead of selling feeders. Who knows, with the roller coaster ride we've been on lately anything is possible.
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Did you buy any bulls yesterday? I would like to have attended "bull day" but had too much to do.
 
Just to be clear, all this talk about Kit makes me wonder if some people missed the fact that Jim Gerrish wrote the article, Kit just included a link to it in his PCC quckie.

Someone mentioned Kit doesn't provide free trucking on purchased bulls, he does provide free trucking to 40 drop points. I hope to buy one in the next year or two. It's kind of nice having to only pay for the trucking from Virginia instead of Colorado.

There was also a great article in the newest SGF about bale grazing, it is part of the new section "Grazing In Snow Country."

Toi comment about the unwillingnes to change, it's funny how some people are not willing to change when at some point changes had to be made by somebody to get to where they are now.
 
Yes Soapweed, I bought 6 bulls. Just talked to Wade and he said the whole bull crop averaged 630#, down about 20# from last year. I saw your load sell yesterday on cattleusa, they looked good again. Are you seeing less weaning weight this year too or they about where they should be?
 
Just read through this front to back, and I'm glad that Ben brought up the fact that Jim Gerrish wrote the article. The name Kit Pharo sure seems to spark some "conversation" around here.

A couple of points: I have never heard Kit Pharo say that lighter calves ALWAYS bring more per pound. I have heard him say that lighter calves HISTORICALLY average more per pound.

The calf market is the same in Alberta this year. Feedlots don't want the 4-6 wt calves. They want them over 600 at least, and who can blame them? They've lost alot of money in the last 2 years feeding cattle. Even with barley being cheaper now, it's not a lucrative business. So, instead of selling my 400lb calves, what do I do? I put on my thinking cap, put pencil to paper, and devise a plan to retain ownership, follow the markets over the next 6 months, and sell the beeves at the point where I feel I will get the widest margin. Then I take over the world. :lol:

Let's keep in mind folks that noone is saying you should do this, or you should do that. Jim Gerrish, Big Swede, and many others in the last 3 pages are simply stating that there are options worth considering. I gave up preaching to the choir about options a couple years ago. I kept getting the same responses I saw here....."We can't do that through all that snow.", "We can't let cattle go without water.", "We can't""We can't""We can't". You know what - YOU'RE RIGHT!!! YOU can't, because YOU won't. I and others can, and do. My only wish for myself and all of us involved in Agriculture, is that we can do it profitably, and enjoy it. What else matters?

Good night all.
 
Big Swede, you are exactly right in my opinion.I know that Pure Country and I are already on the same page in our thinking. It took me awhile to get my head around this and am still learning. I just want to say that bale grazing has been the biggest soil and subsequent grass improver that we ever used.I look at a hay bale now as fertilizer waiting for a place to start growing better grass.I look at a cow as a fertilizing machine, summer and winter. Actually, a cow is the best soil improver that there is, if you treat her that way.I've seen huge increases in grass using mob grazing and plan on getting more involved with this myself. Your grass is your profit,pure and simple, in good markets or bad.In my area, the producers with overgrazed, mismanaged pastures were the first to leave the cattle business.Why? Because they had small weaning weights,probably open cows, and they have to feed alot more and for more months than the producers who are better at managing their grass and can graze longer into winter or even during the winter, thus reducing their costs and gaining more profit. If I have to start anything more than a skidoo to feed the cows, bulls, or calves during the winter, I start to get a bit ticked off and know that it won't happen the next winter. I've got neighbors who just aren't happy if they don't spend 4-6 hours a day feeding cows all winter. These are the same guys that also like to complain about how many thousands they spent on fuel to feed their cows for the winter and if they can afford to buy high priced fertilizer for their hay fields :roll: These are also the same guys whose pasture production is decreasing every year and they are wondering what to pay for rented pasture.Change if you want or don't change, but what Big Swede is trying to point out is that there might be a better way of doing things.
 
To quote Allan Nation, "Most people would rather fail conventionally then to succeed unconventially."

We are headed for some interesting times, those that are unwilling to change with the times can't last. Those that do, will prosper.

One of the biggest thing that Kit drives into people is to seperate Profit and Productivity, they are two different things. You can be the most productive farmer/rancher, have the highest weaning weights, the best looking calves, but that doesn't mean they are the most productive. American Agriculture is the most productive and profitable in the world, but are we the most profitable?

The biggest priorities I have is to install fences that will keep the animals in when there is a few feet of snow, I am now buidling everything with a earth wire return, not all hot. I will be installing more freeze proof waterers so I can feed more stockpiled forage and start bale grazing. The cost of the fence will more then cover the reduction in fuel and machinery depreciation.

Some comments from other farmers in my are include one saying it's cheaper for him to go out and chop the grass and bring it to his cows in his "feedlot", cheaper then me grazing and allowing the cows to harvest it. Another told me he heard that he can harvest more tons of forage per acre by haying then by allowing the cows to graze. Again, even if that's true, productivity vs. profitability. The thing with the second comment is what a lot of people call grazing.
 
rainie said:
Big Swede, you are exactly right in my opinion.I know that Pure Country and I are already on the same page in our thinking. It took me awhile to get my head around this and am still learning. I just want to say that bale grazing has been the biggest soil and subsequent grass improver that we ever used.I look at a hay bale now as fertilizer waiting for a place to start growing better grass.I look at a cow as a fertilizing machine, summer and winter. Actually, a cow is the best soil improver that there is, if you treat her that way.I've seen huge increases in grass using mob grazing and plan on getting more involved with this myself. Your grass is your profit,pure and simple, in good markets or bad.In my area, the producers with overgrazed, mismanaged pastures were the first to leave the cattle business.Why? Because they had small weaning weights,probably open cows, and they have to feed alot more and for more months than the producers who are better at managing their grass and can graze longer into winter or even during the winter, thus reducing their costs and gaining more profit. If I have to start anything more than a skidoo to feed the cows, bulls, or calves during the winter, I start to get a bit ticked off and know that it won't happen the next winter. I've got neighbors who just aren't happy if they don't spend 4-6 hours a day feeding cows all winter. These are the same guys that also like to complain about how many thousands they spent on fuel to feed their cows for the winter and if they can afford to buy high priced fertilizer for their hay fields :roll: These are also the same guys whose pasture production is decreasing every year and they are wondering what to pay for rented pasture.Change if you want or don't change, but what Big Swede is trying to point out is that there might be a better way of doing things.
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I've done the bale grazeing thing and to me it's not really "Rocket Science" the bales still need to be placed in your field's or paddocks with a fuel burning tractor prior to winter.It saves a step later on in the winter but is'nt exactly pure profit.In this country it's common place to unroll bales across the fields spreading manure as you go.It will get you a more even rate of application.When I bale graze it's on fields that I baled the hay and the cows eat them right out where they fell out of the baler.Now I know that saved money.This year I did'nt hay any of the fields where I winter cows I know they wont get it all grazed before the neighbor calls the cops on me but thats fine.I will graze it in april and may 30-45 days earlier than we normally go to grass.We have penty of guys here who own 20 or 30 bale rings and fill them all once a week move them over and do it again the next.There are many ways to turn a profit but selling my haying equipment is'nt one of them.With the price of boughten hay here the last 2 years even the most effiecent guys would have lost $250 a cow easy on boughten hay.I know I would be money ahead if I would have just sold all my hay but thats not what I interested in.If I sold my haying equipment my summer would be pretty much free time so then my wife would want me to get a Job I'll stick to making hay...
 
Summer grass in this area is worth approximately $1.20 per cow/calf pair per day. This holds true whether you are putting your cows on grass owned by a neighbor, or taking in a neighbor's cattle to eat your own grass. Hay can be purchased locally for approximately $70-$80 per ton. That is the hay market whether you are buying or selling. Considering that a cow will eat approximately 25 pounds per day of $80 per ton hay, this would figure out 25# x 4 cents per pound or $1.00 per cow per day, with another 20 cents per day to get it fed. You are looking at cow feed expense of $1.20 per cow per day, whether it is in the form of grass or hay. I guess for my money, I like to graze in good weather and feed hay in bad weather. I like to run my cows in the fashion that if I was living life as a cow, I would like to be one of my cows, if that makes any "cents." :wink:
 
I'm kind of new to stockpiling, last year was the first time I've ever grazed until December 1st. I did notice the legumes like clover really start wilting in November. To answer your question, fescue is the forage of choice for stockpiling, it's the one that really has the strength to hold up. I'm not in the "fescue belt" and don't have any fields that are mostly fescue.

The other option I've been looking at for a while, conincidently there was a Bob Scriven article in the newest Stockman Grass Farmer, is a male-sterile variety of corn. As long as it doesn't get pollan from another variety at the time it tassles, you won't grow an ear. Without an ear, more sugar goes into the leaves. They are trying this for year-round finishing quality forage, even through deep snow. This variety should be 10-14' high and is sold by Master's Choice
 
Ben H said:
I'm kind of new to stockpiling, last year was the first time I've ever grazed until December 1st. I did notice the legumes like clover really start wilting in November. To answer your question, fescue is the forage of choice for stockpiling, it's the one that really has the strength to hold up. I'm not in the "fescue belt" and don't have any fields that are mostly fescue.

The other option I've been looking at for a while, conincidently there was a Bob Scriven article in the newest Stockman Grass Farmer, is a male-sterile variety of corn. As long as it doesn't get pollan from another variety at the time it tassles, you won't grow an ear. Without an ear, more sugar goes into the leaves. They are trying this for year-round finishing quality forage, even through deep snow. This variety should be 10-14' high and is sold by Master's Choice
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If you were in the Fescue belt there would be no reason to feed hay they don't get enough snow to worry about.December 1st is my target date to not feed but I would much rather go until the 10th the latest I've gotton away with was Dec 19th going to grass early on stockpiled forage is my next goal add a month of grazeing on both ends of the grazeing season.That still leaves me 5 months feeding which is better than the 7 months most around here feed.
 
The thing I run Itnot with lae season grazing is if the cows loose too much, it is very expensive to put it back on them,

The wordt example was some swampy ground I had leased. There wasstill forage, but it had no feed value. The cattle I had there ended up loing wieght pretty hard all at once. I think i ended up costing me at breed back time.

I have had good luck grazing Alfalfa Fields late. It is nearlyimpossible to find if you don' own it. The guys realize you are taking next years start to some extent.

Part of my problem is I am still a renter, so if you stockpile, the owner starts getting antsy for you to get it grazed off.

Also.... What about waste vs cost of harvesting some of this? If I feed a cow 25 pounds of hay, it is what she will eat... If I leave it stockpiled, she will eat a lot more than that...

PPRM
 
We are blessed to have a large amount of Rough Fescue native pastures in the foothills of the Rockies. Lots of water, shelter and a variety of native plants including fescue is the ultimate for winter grazing. A snow eating Chinook or two helps as well. On our flat land it is still a learning experience. We bunch all the straw and chaff in small piles behind the combine in the barley. We have to enhance the protien on those fields using whatever is the cheapest form of protien for the year. We have several years of experimenting with swathing the second cut of Alfalfa with good success. That is a timing thing with the first cut and the year ending frost. Haven't lost any to winter kill from that Yet! Swathgrazing oats, triticale and barley is always consistently successful however timing is also a trick. As far a cool season grasses go, they all loose protien and either need to be swathed or some sort of protien enhancement. Sometimes you can only eliminate one operation but it has always been worth the effort here.
 

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