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Factors Affecting Beef Flavor

Pure Country....that was about one of THE best posts ever in Ranchers....proud to share a county with you!!!!!!
 
My production systems both beef and pork have always been extensive, using breeds and crosses adapted to the environment in which I raise them.
I have used this to my advantage by marketing to a niche market as free range, antibiotic/hormone free. My veld reared beef was furthe hung for three weeks to allow the full breakdown of muscle glycogen into lactic acid breaking down muscle fibre, promoting tendeness and flavour, the pigs are hung for ten days, working as a meat technologist to finance my first ranch has been helpfull in marketing.
Flavour depends on fat content and maturity of meat (hanging), and is further affected by feed type, and age of animal at slaughter, environment does have an affect, intensively reared pork and poultry are often tainted by the high levels of ammonia in the buildings.
The most important aspect of my farming management is practising Holistic principles to protect my environment while maintaining high levels of production at the lowest possible cost.

http://www.holisticmanagement.org/
 
Pure, I admire your stance ol' boy, I really do. As well, I think you've taken it a bit far. :D I guess you'll have to send me a PM about how feeding corn, barley or other grain is going to create unhealthy beef. If the punch-line to that topic is that there will be more fat in the final product, then I guess we can save ourselves the argument. If the punch line is going to be about how much more omega-3 fatty acids are contained in grass-fed vs. corn-fed beef, I've also heard that load of goods before. I get it. :wink: If I want some omega-3 fatty acids I think think I'll eat some fish, a true source of that compound. There are way more things out there that are going to kill us than the grass vs. corn/barley fed hamburger or steak. That's just the way it is. I totally agree with you that we ought to seek ways to decrease the amount of chemicals and hormones that are used in food production. No doubt about that and I wish those big profitable companies would quit dreaming up products that adulterate our food in the name of shareholder profits.

But, I just don't see how grass-fed organic beef is going to keep all of the cattle producers on this board viable in the U.S. or Canada. I'm sure you're familiar with the fact that beef is about 240% the price of chicken at the grocery store. So, I don't guess we're going to get beef on everyone's plate if we go ahead and produce it all on pasture and with no grain. It just won't happen at the huge premium that it will take to build that system sustainably. I'm fully privvy to the fact that several of the good folks here on this board have made themselves a nice business on the grass-fed market. Yes, yes, some of those folks would also think that selling anything in the conventional format is just plain ol' foolishness. Well, let's pull on our "reality" glasses and understand that the percentage of people that wish to go out and pay a premium for Farmer John's Organic/Hand Fed/No Antibiotic/No Hormone/Curry Combed Daily/Bottled Water-Drinking/Grass Fed Beef is just a relatively low number. Hey, I'm trying to be a little funny here so cut me some slack!! I'm just saying; the average everyday Joe or Joanna is very cost driven when it comes to the highest priced grocery category that they buy, protein.

I sure realize that it doesn't seem that I support your production methods and philosophies, but that's not true. I'm excited that you've found such success with your model from many aspects. My father holds a lot of the same production theories that you abide by, and I respect you both for it and understand how it makes sense for some people. But it sorta gets me a bit bent out of shape when you say that the way that about 99% or more of our beef on your side of the border and mine is produced is "potentially unhealthy". I recognize that there may be some slight health benefits to grass-fed beef. But if you really analyze our populations of people and the major factors that are creating poorer health would you be able to honestly say that the grass-fed versus corn-fed beef argument is going to hold any water as a top ten factor? It's the typicallly-sedentary lifestyle and can after can of soda pop consumed in front of the television that is killing people isn't it? It's the dripping-wet fat-fried everything that we love to eat, right? That and the cigarettes and heavy drinking, don't you think?

Now I hope I didn't ruffle any feathers either. I'm just trying to balance up the conversation a little.

HP
 
Questions/Comments in Bold in middle of quote.

High Plains said:
Pure, I admire your stance ol' boy, I really do. As well, I think you've taken it a bit far. :D I guess you'll have to send me a PM about how feeding corn, barley or other grain is going to create unhealthy beef. If the punch-line to that topic is that there will be more fat in the final product, then I guess we can save ourselves the argument. Not quantity of fat, type of fat, that is the key. All the health benefits of grass fed beef are in the fat, no advantage in the lean. Also, there is strong evidence supporting the difference in e. Coli 0157:H7 cell counts in the gut of grain vs. grassfed animals. I will note that there is no differnce in the bacteria in the meat, it's just that grain fed has a higher risk of contamination. I think the difference is like 20,000 vs. 6.3 million per ml of manure.If the punch line is going to be about how much more omega-3 fatty acids are contained in grass-fed vs. corn-fed beef, I've also heard that load of goods before. I get it. :wink: If I want some omega-3 fatty acids I think think I'll eat some fish, a true source of that compound. There are way more things out there that are going to kill us than the grass vs. corn/barley fed hamburger or steak. That's just the way it is. I totally agree with you that we ought to seek ways to decrease the amount of chemicals and hormones that are used in food production. No doubt about that and I wish those big profitable companies would quit dreaming up products that adulterate our food in the name of shareholder profits.

But, I just don't see how grass-fed organic beef is going to keep all of the cattle producers on this board viable in the U.S. or Canada. I'm sure you're familiar with the fact that beef is about 240% the price of chicken at the grocery store. So, I don't guess we're going to get beef on everyone's plate if we go ahead and produce it all on pasture and with no grain. It just won't happen at the huge premium that it will take to build that system sustainably. I'm fully privvy to the fact that several of the good folks here on this board have made themselves a nice business on the grass-fed market. Yes, yes, some of those folks would also think that selling anything in the conventional format is just plain ol' foolishness. Well, let's pull on our "reality" glasses and understand that the percentage of people that wish to go out and pay a premium for Farmer John's Organic/Hand Fed/No Antibiotic/No Hormone/Curry Combed Daily/Bottled Water-Drinking/Grass Fed Beef is just a relatively low number. Hey, I'm trying to be a little funny here so cut me some slack!! I'm just saying; the average everyday Joe or Joanna is very cost driven when it comes to the highest priced grocery category that they buy, protein. Right nowt the higher price is due to supply and demand, I think grassfed can be very competetive if not better in cost of production, especially if we can elimnate price supports/subsidies on grain. Argentina has price limits on their beef, they have traditionaly produced grassfed beef not because of a niche, but because they only get $0.35/lb

I sure realize that it doesn't seem that I support your production methods and philosophies, but that's not true. I'm excited that you've found such success with your model from many aspects. My father holds a lot of the same production theories that you abide by, and I respect you both for it and understand how it makes sense for some people. But it sorta gets me a bit bent out of shape when you say that the way that about 99% or more of our beef on your side of the border and mine is produced is "potentially unhealthy". I recognize that there may be some slight health benefits to grass-fed beef. But if you really analyze our populations of people and the major factors that are creating poorer health would you be able to honestly say that the grass-fed versus corn-fed beef argument is going to hold any water as a top ten factor? If the only change you made in your diet was converting your beef from traditional to grassfed, you will loose weight over the course of a year, I can't remember exactly what the numbers are. Also, we need to look at the fact that our wild caught fish are becoming less and less available. They are talking about the industry dieing in 10 years. Farm raised fish does not have the omega-3's that wild ones have. A recent study showed that farm raised talapia actuallly has a worse omega 6:3 ratio then grain fed beef. Your are doing more harm then good by trying to substitute your diet with talapia. Farm raised salamon and trout aren't as bad It's the typicallly-sedentary lifestyle and can after can of soda pop consumed in front of the television that is killing people isn't it? It's the dripping-wet fat-fried everything that we love to eat, right? That and the cigarettes and heavy drinking, don't you think?

Now I hope I didn't ruffle any feathers either. I'm just trying to balance up the conversation a little.

HP
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I admit I"m now biased towards grassfed, but I took an un-biased approach. I grew up believing in grainfed. But then I did a trial of grain vs grass on my own farm. I was so impressed with the flavor and tenderness of the grassfed that I stopped grain feeding from that point on. The other things that is exciting is that I produce a great product, but I think I can do even better.
 
I think you did balance things up HP. I like you agree that is great that some of these rancher have be able to and been successful marketing their production this way. Can everybody do it? I don't think so, but I could be wrong. :-)
 
HP, I agree that grainfed beef is a close second behind grassfed beef as the best, most nutritious food a person can consume when it's raised healthy...like Ben Roberts, PPRM, and other on here. I think the best beef comes off the ranch/farm of the person that raised it.
 
HP, yes can after can of soda pop, smokes, alcohol, drugs and many other things will kill people off. Agreed. Yes they are far worse than grain-fed beef. Agreed.

The point of my post was not that grass-fed tastes better, grass-fed is better, or grass-fed is healthier neccessarily, and I said that in my post. My whole point is that if you think your grain-fed OR GRASSFED products are as healthy as they can be, but you haven't tested them or your soils, you cannot confidently say that it's a healthy product.

I cannot say that my beef - grained or grassed - is healthy and nutrient dense unless I monitor the Brix levels of the feed/forage, and then also test the product.

As for your statement of how beef is 240% higher priced than chicken in the grocery store, how much of that margin comes back to you? You made the statement as if it's a good thing that beef is so high priced - why? I don't care what the retailer is selling it for, because they aren't sharing a damn bit with the producer.

If you think I'm taking it a bit far, that's fine, I respect your opinion and value your input. I admit I lean towards the Joel Salatin opinion on things, that all people should get their grub directly from a farmer. I look at how my neighbours, and my family in the past, have struggled growing crops, and raising livestock. I think about how much work, effort, blood, sweat and tears goes into their farms and ranches every day. That's what makes me always look for a better way. Why couldn't they be growing organic vegetables instead of GMO canola? Or maybe pastured pork and poultry instead of scraping by on 80 cent calves. There are examples of people doing these things and making great money at it, everywhere you look. The only thing holding me back is me, and the only thing holding you back is you. I'm not presuming to know you, or to know that you need to change anything. Just saying I see farmers everywhere I go, losing money, on the verge of bankruptcy, losing their families, and I think, why? Why not make a few changes and take control?

When you say, "It's not for everybody..." that may be the only thing you say that gets under my skin. Stop and think about it, it may not work for everybody, but it DOESN"T HAVE TO. It only has to work for you.
 
I recieved an email yesterday from a student at University of Southern Maine, he's a chemistry student working on a project, he needs a sample of my local grassfed to compare to store bought conventional beef. They will be testing the Omega-3's. I'm not sure about the other fatty acids.

My prices for burger are about the same as the grocery stores "Naturally Raised" beef at about $5.50/lb. A friend of mine sells his grassfed beef to wholefoods wholesale. I believe he gets $3.75/lb hcw, I'm only charging $3.40 for a side, $3.30 for a whole and $3.65 for a quarter. The last time I checked, whole foods was charging $6.99/lb for grassfed burger.

Let me re-ask this, it was buried in someone elses quoted post. How would the cost of production of grassfed beef compare to feedlot finished, corn-fed beef if we eliminated the corn subsidies and only allowed the free market to set the prices?
 
Well I'm going to agree with High Plain's on this one grass fed is a niche market.Susie homemaker look's at price first.We have some of these all natural folk's here and the one thing that really stick's out about these people is the Hippie hair-do's and the fact that smokeing pot is natural.

I myself don't like grass finished beef at all I come from the land of corn and it's what I'm used to and prefer.If I want grass finished I'd eat venison.

Their are some (ORGANIC DAIRIES) around here with the falling milk prices somehave been selling out if the quality of the product is that of the animal's I've seen no thanks.

Here in by-product alley grass is a hot commodity.On the other hand we can haul sweet corn silage beet pulp and tailing's wet distillars grain's potato waste from the french fry factory with the farthest haul of 140 mile's.It pencil's out cheaper to feed the cow's by-product's vs conventional hay diet's and in a commodity market low cost is key.I have no want to be a meat peddler at a farm market just not my deal for those that do it good for you.

My next purchase here is going to be a semi and an end dump.
 
How would the cost of production of grassfed beef compare to feedlot finished, corn-fed beef if we eliminated the corn subsidies
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I know in my situation I can produce my grass-fed beef cheaper than than I could by feeding grain and selling the beef for the same price. There is very, very little cost in grass fattening cattle in an good moisture area that grows grass well In a substantially drier or desert situation I don't think that would hold true as I can't see how you could get enough gain on the cattle to sell them young enough. We are harvesting solar power with our cattle and without the drugs, fertilizers, grain and machinery.

I don't know I would entirely agree with purecountry on the soil testing thing. It's a fascinating science and I would like to learn more about it but testing in itself does not make the soil good - it only tells you if it is good, bad or intermediate. Equally you could "read" the soil by watching the forage growth and diversity and how the animals are performing on it. I can sure tell with my grass-fed steers in the fall if the sugar levels are high enough - it shows in the finish and the shine on the cattle.
 
HP said:
I'm sure you're familiar with the fact that beef is about 240% the price of chicken at the grocery store.
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It is well documented that price is a major factor for consumer purchasing...What is your marketing strategy to convince consumers to buy your commodity beef over commodity pork or poultry?

Only about 25% of a carcass would qualify as a "gourmet" product.
The ingredient that makes it "gourmet" is the number one factor that turns consumers away from beef...saturated fat! (I know all beef fat isn't saturated, but the consumer is told that by dietitians and doctors.)

How does the industry close the gap between beef and pork/poultry if the strategy is based around price?
 
Grassfarmer said:
How would the cost of production of grassfed beef compare to feedlot finished, corn-fed beef if we eliminated the corn subsidies
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I know in my situation I can produce my grass-fed beef cheaper than than I could by feeding grain and selling the beef for the same price. There is very, very little cost in grass fattening cattle in an good moisture area that grows grass well In a substantially drier or desert situation I don't think that would hold true as I can't see how you could get enough gain on the cattle to sell them young enough. We are harvesting solar power with our cattle and without the drugs, fertilizers, grain and machinery.

I don't know I would entirely agree with purecountry on the soil testing thing. It's a fascinating science and I would like to learn more about it but testing in itself does not make the soil good - it only tells you if it is good, bad or intermediate. Equally you could "read" the soil by watching the forage growth and diversity and how the animals are performing on it. I can sure tell with my grass-fed steers in the fall if the sugar levels are high enough - it shows in the finish and the shine on the cattle.
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I am not sure what benefit there would be if I did know how our soil tested. For starters, there is quite a variance in types of soil across the ranch. We have high producing sub-irrigated hay meadows on one extreme and very low producing sandy soapweedy chop hills, with sparse grass density on the other.

The only fertilizer our ranch ever gets is what goes back on after it has passed through the cows, quite naturally I might add. We haven't used any fly control on our cattle for over fifteen years. Once in a while we do spray a patch of leafy spurge or canadian thistle, but that is the only purchased product we use. So what difference does it make as to how our soil tests? I can't quit polluting the soil, because first I would have to start.
 
Not trying here to convince any of you of anything, just adding food for thought. Having a mini lab on the tailgate of the pickup is fun and empowering. Knowing when the sugars are up in the plant can affect when you cut hay. You can make good feed better just by knowing when to cut it. If you are using any sort of amendment from mainstream fert to fish to manure you can test which will work best and adjust the timing using an EC meter. Raising the brix by a half a point can mean the hoppers or lygas will prefer your neighbors crop to yours. Knowing which parricide's and when the timing affects dung beetles can make a huge difference in nutrient cycling in a natural system. There are tidbits from PureCountries world that could make most systems better. Having a working knowledge of the different biology can mean the difference between aerobic and anaerobic compost. Little, easy, inexpensive things can make a difference to the bottom line.
 
per said:
Not trying here to convince any of you of anything, just adding food for thought. Having a mini lab on the tailgate of the pickup is fun and empowering. Knowing when the sugars are up in the plant can affect when you cut hay. You can make good feed better just by knowing when to cut it. If you are using any sort of amendment from mainstream fert to fish to manure you can test which will work best and adjust the timing using an EC meter. Raising the brix by a half a point can mean the hoppers or lygas will prefer your neighbors crop to yours. Knowing which parricide's and when the timing affects dung beetles can make a huge difference in nutrient cycling in a natural system. There are tidbits from PureCountries world that could make most systems better. Having a working knowledge of the different biology can mean the difference between aerobic and anaerobic compost. Little, easy, inexpensive things can make a difference to the bottom line.
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It would be nice to harvest hay at optimal nutrition. The reality here is to get it put up when you can between break downs, other jobs, and weather delays :D .
 
WyomingRancher said:
per said:
Not trying here to convince any of you of anything, just adding food for thought. Having a mini lab on the tailgate of the pickup is fun and empowering. Knowing when the sugars are up in the plant can affect when you cut hay. You can make good feed better just by knowing when to cut it. If you are using any sort of amendment from mainstream fert to fish to manure you can test which will work best and adjust the timing using an EC meter. Raising the brix by a half a point can mean the hoppers or lygas will prefer your neighbors crop to yours. Knowing which parricide's and when the timing affects dung beetles can make a huge difference in nutrient cycling in a natural system. There are tidbits from PureCountries world that could make most systems better. Having a working knowledge of the different biology can mean the difference between aerobic and anaerobic compost. Little, easy, inexpensive things can make a difference to the bottom line.
Click to expand...

It would be nice to harvest hay at optimal nutrition. The reality here is to get it put up when you can between break downs, other jobs, and weather delays :D .
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Amen to that.

I put up 700 acres of hay mostly by myself from mid june until early september some times later.In a perfect world maybe but I'm not there yet.
 
PureCountry said:
As for your statement of how beef is 240% higher priced than chicken in the grocery store, how much of that margin comes back to you? You made the statement as if it's a good thing that beef is so high priced - why?
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I really meant to point out that beef producers, as an entire industry, cannot afford to increase the cost of our product through practices that deteriorate efficiencies. The 240% higher price point is not a good thing when you look at it from the angle of competition with cheaper meats. Not at all. Luckily, our product is tastier and much preferred. That's where I get back to the point that some of the consumers are willing and can afford to buy the premium or niche product, but the majority are at least not willing if not unable. As a consequence, we'll have to continue to hammer the extra costs out of our industry's production model in order to compete not only with chicken and pork, but also with other countries.

The only thing holding me back is me, and the only thing holding you back is you.
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This statement is perfect. Probably puts it all in perspective the best in lots of areas of life besides how to produce beef. Heck, if I can wake up tomorrow with this in my mind, I might get something done. :!: :wink: 8)

If you think I'm taking it a bit far, that's fine, I respect your opinion and value your input.
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Well, I think I was overstepping when I made that statement. It's not my spot to try to bend your way of thinking toward my own. After all, I think it's awesome that many people like yourself have been able to sell a very good and healthy product directly to people that desire it. What I really meant was that I don't think it's a model that we'll ever be able to spread across every producer and every consumer. So, supposing that it can and should be done would be "taking it too far" in my opinion of what is possible. As well, you said it right when you pointed out that it doesn't have to work for everyone, if it can work for you or for me. Good enough.

Enjoyed chattin' with you on this and I'll say that I've learned a few ideas from you that I had not previously considered. What a deal :!: :-)

HP
 

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