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Feeding bulls

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lazy ace

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 31, 2005
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654
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Grand River Casino
I had an interesting chat with a commercial breeder and he had just the opposite thoughts of what has been posted on here in the past.

He is a larger cow calf producer that feeds and backgrounds and finishes quite a few calves and is tired of dealing with calves who's feet go bad when they get fed grain in a real world cattle feeding situation.

His thoughts were that he wanted to buy that good footed bull that has been pushed. He feels that if he can find that bull that has been put to the test and is still sound that his steer calves will be sounder and more efficient in the feedlot.

He also feels that when a bull loses weight during breeding season that he is doing his job and is not bothered by feeding bulls a little extra during the off season to keep them in shape.

Again this is a little bit different from what has been posted in the past but still interesting.

have a good one

lazy ace
 
Feet aside the last week the phone has been ringing from producers calling who have young bulls that won't pass a fertility test - burned up testicles. The best bull in the world isn't any good shooting blanks.
 
not arguing with you at that point but just offering a different perspective from on what this young commercial guy is looking for. I just thought it would be interesting to post.

have a good one
lazy ace
 
Just not sure if I would want to buy a bull from him so I can end up being the guinea pig to see if his feet hold up during breeding season- or the next year :???: Or his liver doesn't go bad after a couple years :???:

My problem with my older bulls is to keep them from getting too fat during the off season- and they are only on pasture and hay....
 
Oldtimer said:
Just not sure if I would want to buy a bull from him so I can end up being the guinea pig to see if his feet hold up during breeding season- or the next year :???: Or his liver doesn't go bad after a couple years :???:

My problem with my older bulls is to keep them from getting too fat during the off season- and they are only on pasture and hay....
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I think you missed my point this kid is a COMMERCIAL cow calf man not a purebred breeder. As far as feeding his old bulls they are as fat as ticks on hay. He was talking about taking care of his young bulls after the first breeding season. Maybe I should have explained it better but it is a different perspective from what most have on here.

It is enjoyable to talk to commercial breeders that pay attention to the whole picture of the cattle industry.

He buys black angus bulls so he isn't even one of our customers.

have a good one

lazy ace
 
Yep- Ace I did misunderstand...I guess its his gamble- and from what I've seen in the past he's shooting against the odds for keeping a longtime healthy bull....

I was at a sale the other day where the opposite end of the extreme was shown--2 year old red angus bulls that had been wintered last winter out on the prairie near Winnett- no hay and only got a little cake when they could get thru the snow... They were pretty tough looking compared to most bulls you see sell- but definitely weren't going to melt away the first hot day chasing cows....

Somewhere in the middle has to be that happy medium...
 
I run across these kind of guys from time to time. They are often the ones that are looking for bulls in June because their bulls have konked out. I occasionally watch bulls come thru the ring in late summer when guys are pulling them. It is amazing how many young bulls come thru lame. Sometimes they are injured but I bet a lot of them were screwed up when they bought them and it didn't show up until later. Unless you are clairvoyant it is hard to tell which ones will go bad.
 
Most commercial men talk two lines one before they buy bulls and one after. Truth is if you don't feed your bull's to be big and fat the price paid and the left over bulls will about break the seedstock producer here.Alot of money goes into having a sale and if the cattle are'nt in a good saleable condition for the area they are to be sold into the aftermath of nay sayer's will cost more in the long run than a little extra feed.Everyone should have at least one bull sale that way they can really speak from experiance. As far as bad feet on pushed cattle I don't believe that to be true I bought a bull at the NWSS Angus sale he bred cows here until he was 10 and never had a lame day. He was hog fat when I bought him.I'd worry more about cattle that were fed so slowly to not show a genetic flaw like hot feed and bad feet. As far as young bulls not passing semen checks I was at a place a couple weeks ago the young bulls were marginal at best. The Dr doing the test thought the ration contained to much protein to produce good quality semen.Alot of variables go into raiseing seedstock but for every one person wanting a slow fed lean bull their's 10 times as many wanting big stout yearlings that have proven they can gain.
 
I have a hard time evaluating fat bulls unless there is a glaring problem.
I think a lot of bulls that fall apart were never very good to begin with, their faults were covered up. I guess that's where the breeder's integrity and pocket knife come in.
 
Having spent a number of years on the BOD of a once popular bull test that experience had a lot to do with my views on bull development. A large part of the reason it ultimately closed were that producers far too often had poor luck with the soundness and longevity of bulls pushed too hard. And as often as not it was some of the higher indexing bulls.

Loss of use insurance used to be readily available at many bull sales. I was told by a individual who was a rep for the company that it was discontinued because of the amount of claims on bulls raised by some outfits. They were uninsurable. In fact insurance made the situation worse as it took away a big incentive to raise bulls in a reasonable manner.

I have a friend who bought a fat bull at the NWSS. He got exactly two calves out of the bull. When he contacted the sellers they said the fact that he sired two calves was proof he was a breeder when sold. :shock:

There is a big difference between what constitutes soundness in cattle that are up to their bellies in grass and have to walk a few yards to water and cattle that run in country that requires 15-50 acres per pair and cattle walk miles to water every day.
 
As a commercial guy it is not as important to me how fat the bull is when I got him as how he got to that condition. I need to know how the whole herd looks and how they were raised throughout the year. My bulls come from outfits that treat their cattle in the same manner that I do. Sometimes the bulls are too fat because they are easy doers. Hard to hold that against the bull.
 
If the cattle are truly good they don't need to be fat to sell no if's ands or buts about it!!!!! There aree some outfits that have cattle that are interesting but the cattle are so overmanaged that it would be senseless to even consider it. The more cows a bull can breed and the more years he lasts the better it is for your cost of production. There is no reason besides ego and perceived easier marketability to overfeed young bulls like so many breeders feel they have to. One thing I've noticed is that since backfat measurements have become common some breeders have backed off the groceries. I applaud the young guy whose looking for bulls with good feet that have had the feed cranked to them his task will be long and daunting-he better be sharp enough to notice a trim job.
 
Northern Rancher said:
If the cattle are truly good they don't need to be fat to sell no if's ands or buts about it!!!!! There aree some outfits that have cattle that are interesting but the cattle are so overmanaged that it would be senseless to even consider it. The more cows a bull can breed and the more years he lasts the better it is for your cost of production. There is no reason besides ego and perceived easier marketability to overfeed young bulls like so many breeders feel they have to. One thing I've noticed is that since backfat measurements have become common some breeders have backed off the groceries. I applaud the young guy whose looking for bulls with good feet that have had the feed cranked to them his task will be long and daunting-he better be sharp enough to notice a trim job.
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Overfed is not needed, but fed right and in sale shape is needed. Not counting my own sale, I manage around 10 others a year and the cattle NEED to be in good condition, or they flat won't sell.
 
BRG said:
Northern Rancher said:
If the cattle are truly good they don't need to be fat to sell no if's ands or buts about it!!!!! There aree some outfits that have cattle that are interesting but the cattle are so overmanaged that it would be senseless to even consider it. The more cows a bull can breed and the more years he lasts the better it is for your cost of production. There is no reason besides ego and perceived easier marketability to overfeed young bulls like so many breeders feel they have to. One thing I've noticed is that since backfat measurements have become common some breeders have backed off the groceries. I applaud the young guy whose looking for bulls with good feet that have had the feed cranked to them his task will be long and daunting-he better be sharp enough to notice a trim job.
Click to expand...

Overfed is not needed, but fed right and in sale shape is needed. Not counting my own sale, I manage around 10 others a year and the cattle NEED to be in good condition, or they flat won't sell.
Click to expand...


Thats what I was trying to say. I had some bulls that were a little under condition and they flat did'nt sell.Ended up selling them as 2 year olds for a loss.Takes another $365 a head to take them to two year olds if your frugel.
 
Lazy Ace, interesting point about selection pressure for good feet by virtue of pushing the bulls. Probably has some merit. Don't know whether I would opt for it as a primary selection process because of the other associated risks involved if the bulls are pushed real hard, but still is an interesting way to look at it. The slippery slope of this approach mey be uping the anti to the point where the energy content of the ration was off the chart. If one or two bulls came out of that deal with good feet, rumen , kidneys, liver, etc then for sure you have a bull that can take the heat so to speak

It begs the question , what is "pushed"? It would be nice if the total mega cals of energy in the daily ration were available to be able to gauge the heat of any and all bull development rations.

This idea is similar to an idea that occurred to me a few years ago with regards to decreased postpartum interval as photo period increases.

Do those cows that maintain a 365 day calving interval in spite of the reduced photo period in an April/May breeding season demonstrate superior fertility compared to the Sept bred cows that get the benefit of the greatest photo period when calving in June?
 
Lazy ace I have given some more thought to your post, specifically the point regarding supplementation of yearling bulls after the first breeding season.

Depending on the breeding situation relative to pasture quality, size, number of bulls he is competing with, number of cows he is expected to service, and his libido, etc, he may or may not have a good reason for losing condition. Not doubt there is a difference in nutritional opportunity during breeding between a breeding situation where he is the only sire and he is given 60 days to service 25 heifers and it is June and he is in really productive country with high quality forage where it only takes 10 or 15 acres of pasture to meet the whole herds needs compared to a multi sire 600 cow, high dessert, one water hole 30 section situation where breeding is taking place in August and September. A yearling bull that comes out of the later situation to be placed into a bull pasture with only sparse dessert pature to recover on probably needs and deserves some supplementation. On the other hand the yearling that come s out of the former breeding situation and is placed in a pasture with plenty of high quality pasture right to freeze up should probably recover on his own just fine. So in short, it depends on the situation.

One thing I do know, we as producers have a tendency to evaluate livestock management practices in general in the context of our own personal management/environment situations, which may or may not be appropriate.

It would be interesting to know what type of country and breeding situation the fellow in question was operating in to be able to accurately as possible access his management strategy with his young bulls.
 
Many bulls can handle a high energy ration for a short period of time. The problems more often show up in the 900 pound weaning weight 1500 pound yearling weight bulls on creep feed and weaned at a young age.

There certainly seems to be more interest in long yearling and summer born coming two's. Those bulls can be grown in a more reasonable manner. The best quality semen I see is from long yearling bulls raised on a mostly forage ration. I delivered a yearling bull yesterday to be run with Limi cross cows some of which easily weighed 1800 pounds. Part of the reason yearling bulls end up being pushed too hard is because of the mature size of some cows.
 

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