Fertility or weight

[RobertMac]

What is more important to the commercial cattleman...increased percentage of weaned calves or increased weaning weights?

Why can't you have both? If the operation is "commercial" does weaning really matter?

It's not meant to be an either/or question...what is more important in your management practices?

PC, one other thing I see important in replacement selection...look for cow/cow families that are putting working cows back into the herd.

THey do not get bigger and bigger year after year.

This is something we hear from academia and the 'purebred industry...Isn't there a limit how much better/bigger our cattle can be, particularly if cost is considered?
(Not directed at you, PC...just asking.)

 

[gcreekrch]

It is not hard to keep herd weights down if the 20% of those "nice BIG heifers" get loaded on the truck with the steers every year. :wink:

I am with Justin on this one.

I have a hunch this is another of our discussions that there will not be a complete consensus over. We all do what works best for our particular operations.

 

[Nicky]

What is more important to the commercial cattleman...increased percentage of weaned calves or increased weaning weights?

Why can't you have both? If the operation is "commercial" does weaning really matter?

You can have both, and if the operation is commerical, weaning does matter as that is how most commercial operator sell their calves...at weaning.

 

[flyingS]

It is not hard to keep herd weights down if the 20% of those "nice BIG heifers" get loaded on the truck with the steers every year. :wink:

I am with Justin on this one.

I have a hunch this is another of our discussions that there will not be a complete consensus over. We all do what works best for our particular operations.

There is a lot of truth to what gcreekrch says. It all depends on what kind of operation you have. If you are capitalizing on weight you probably have a terminal cross meaning that you are buying replacements which takes fertility out of you control for the most part. If you are trying to keep replacements then you have to reach a happy medium, or have a maternal cross as well as a terminal cross. I would think that keeping your best maternal cows seperate and breeding half of them for maternal replacements and half as F1's would allow you to build both a terminal and maternal herd. Put the maternal hfrs back in your maternal herd and breed the F1's terminal as 3yr olds. Now you have increased fertility as well as sale weights.

 

[Liveoak]

What is more important to the commercial cattleman...increased percentage of weaned calves or increased weaning weights?

Why can't you have both? If the operation is "commercial" does weaning really matter?

You can have both, and if the operation is commerical, weaning does matter as that is how most commercial operator sell their calves...at weaning.

When I made the response Nicky, I was thinking commercial in terms of salebarn commercial, however, I agree with you that if raising purebred non-registered cattle (commercial) through private treaty then yes, weaning is absolutely important! Which brings up a question: Natural weaning or forced weaning? Down here, most producers separate calves of approximately the same age and development, from the cows and put them on grass and/or feed.

 

[Justin]

Why can't you have both? If the operation is "commercial" does weaning really matter?

You can have both, and if the operation is commerical, weaning does matter as that is how most commercial operator sell their calves...at weaning.

When I made the response Nicky, I was thinking commercial in terms of salebarn commercial, however, I agree with you that if raising purebred non-registered cattle (commercial) through private treaty then yes, weaning is absolutely important! Which brings up a question: Natural weaning or forced weaning? Down here, most producers separate calves of approximately the same age and development, from the cows and put them on grass and/or feed.

so when isn't weaning and weaning weights important? :?

 

[Northern Rancher]

When you run yearlings on grass or finish your cattle individual weaning weight isn't all that relevant- by saletime in those situations most times the lights at weaning have caught up and the heavies have slowed down. A good herd of cattle doesn't have that much variation other than can be explained by age. The average weight of the group might have some but I'm pretty sure every cowboy on this site can figure out which ones are the dinks on a calf per calf basis. I guess if your working cattle anyway and you have a scale in your set up go ahead and take them. I used to be the biggest performance testing junkie in the history of man lol.

 

[Justin]

When you run yearlings on grass or finish your cattle individual weaning weight isn't all that relevant- by saletime in those situations most times the lights at weaning have caught up and the heavies have slowed down. A good herd of cattle doesn't have that much variation other than can be explained by age. The average weight of the group might have some but I'm pretty sure every cowboy on this site can figure out which ones are the dinks on a calf per calf basis. I guess if your working cattle anyway and you have a scale in your set up go ahead and take them. I used to be the biggest performance testing junkie in the history of man lol.

yeah,i get that...i just wasn't following what Liveoak was saying.

 

[leanin' H]

Why not look at weaning weights? :???: To me, it is merely another tool to use in determining lots of things........ i.e. how pasture does from year to year with diiferent amounts of percipitation, how different pasture blends do against nieghboring pastures, implants VS. non implanting, calculation on helping cull older cows, trying new/different mineral, ect. Wether it's just a weight taken at or near weaning or an adjusted 205 weight, it helps us determine quite a few things. Same as birth weights. It gives me ammo to support or disprove what I hoped/planned would happen.

 

[Northern Rancher]

I don't think it's as much help as lots would have you believe-I used to sift through a few thousand weaning weight records every fall as an ROP weighman. Like I said if it's covenient take it but it can lead you down quite a path at times.

 

[Anonymous]

According to all the Ingenity and DNA profiling ads- now you won't have to even look at the EPD's, weights, slaughter info, calves, cows, bulls-- as the DNA will tell you everything you need to know... :wink:

 

[Liveoak]

When you run yearlings on grass or finish your cattle individual weaning weight isn't all that relevant- by saletime in those situations most times the lights at weaning have caught up and the heavies have slowed down. A good herd of cattle doesn't have that much variation other than can be explained by age. The average weight of the group might have some but I'm pretty sure every cowboy on this site can figure out which ones are the dinks on a calf per calf basis. I guess if your working cattle anyway and you have a scale in your set up go ahead and take them. I used to be the biggest performance testing junkie in the history of man lol.

yeah,i get that...i just wasn't following what Liveoak was saying.

Justin, I was just thinking about RobertMac's original question:

"What is more important to the commercial cattleman...increased percentage of weaned calves or increased weaning weights?"

What parameters influence when a calf is weaned? Left alone with the cow, weaning times could vary all over the board as opposed to pulling them from the cows all at the same time (assuming they were all born at about the same time). Then it's just a matter of evaluating their weights at that time and making some sort of decision as to cull the cow or not.

Another person might look at weaning as that time when the calf is sold.

To evaluate the issue of increased weaning weights don't you still have to consider weaning methods?

Re: weaning weights: Let's say that whatever method you use but you treat all calves by the same method, you could just go with a basic measurement: (Pounds of calves weaned) ÷ (number of calves weaned) = basic weaning weight. But this method doesn't account for heifer or bull calf, the cow itself, calves that may have died etc. Are there other methods?

By whichever methods you use, the answer will still be a reflection of your cow herd and be able to adjust by culling and then buying better stock.

 

[Angus 62]

Pounds of calf weaned compared to cows exposed to a bull takes into account preg rates and death loss of calves. Some like to take weights of their cows in the fall at preg check time and compare them to the pounds of calf they weaned. That means individually weighing every animal- something most aren't willing to do. Lots of people underestimate the size of their cows and have replaced 1100 pound cows that raised a 450-500 pound calf with 1500 pound cows that wean a 550 to 600 pound calf and are convinced they made genetic progress. :?

 

[leanin' H]

Pounds of calf weaned compared to cows exposed to a bull takes into account preg rates and death loss of calves. Some like to take weights of their cows in the fall at preg check time and compare them to the pounds of calf they weaned. That means individually weighing every animal- something most aren't willing to do. Lots of people underestimate the size of their cows and have replaced 1100 pound cows that raised a 450-500 pound calf with 1500 pound cows that wean a 550 to 600 pound calf and are convinced they made genetic progress. :?

I agree 100%! It does take time to run em' through the chute/scale. But without hard numbers it becomes a guessing contest. Better data = better management.

 

[Northern Rancher]

The one year we weighed cows and calves at weaning the best cow weaned 67% of her weight-670 pound calf out a 1,000 pound first calver-one of those terrible Char/Angus cows the worst was 23% a big Simm X cow. It was fun interpreting the data but I'ds kind of figured out who was staying and who was going already. Better Data analyzed and utilized properly=Better Management alot of times a scale is just used for bragging rights in the playground-I've been guilty of that enough times myself.