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For you Jason

I don't know Northern..... Probably has something to do with soil and maybe nighttime temps during the summer as well? Usually a good frost (And I know you don't frost in July but bear with me here) seems to intice the cows to eat it better... Than again, they just pounded it 2 weeks ago.. I don't know, everything is so diffeent here this year, we upped our stocking rates from 210 cows to 360 on the same sized fields and things I have never seen happen are happening, including much faster regrowth and 3 bulls come down with.. Uhmm. Damaged units.


Every time I think I have this little farm figured out something strange happens.. Makes me scratch my head a lot and jsut stare at the cows and go wtf? Oh well, I have a few more years in me left to screw things up and learn how to fix train wrecks...I figure by than my kids can take over doing that.
 
Sorry to jump the tracks and move from the grass discussion back to the issue of mature cow size, just couldn't help myself.

Unfortunately, I don't own any cows today but I'm darn sure an interested observer and I earn my paycheck in the beef business. I also have first-hand knowledge of a lot of ranches and feedyards, so I don't feel too out of place voicing my opinion.

First, I have always thought that a rancher should do what fits them the best and what makes them money. Ranching isn't usually about getting rich, so you ought to do what brings you the most joy while making a living at it. If you like to bale hay, fine, if you like to go to the coffee shop, fine. So I'm off the hook now as far as telling anybody to drink the cool-aid.

Second, I think that every rancher should also create the products (calves, colts or anything) that is in demand by their customer. That's just business sense. Therefore, I have an opinion that frame score 4 cattle are a bit too small. This is only founded on the principal that I know not of one single feedlot manager that's willing to pay more for little feeder cattle that quit growing too soon and get too fat too early. Yes, these cattle may create the right-sized ribeye for the restaurant trade. But, we have yet to see a premium for less payweight and smaller ribeyes. Maybe that day is on the horizon, but I won't hold my breath.

So, my conclusion is that there are a lot of cow herds that could do themselves some good by lowering their mature cow size a little bit and probably gain some efficiency. Sure, sure, there are lots of really big cows out there right now in every breed. But let's not get carried away with the idea that smaller is better. Tom Brink with the great-big Five Rivers Cattle Feeding has said something similar, in a public forum, to what I've mentioned about the kind of cattle feedlots are demanding. I only wish I could remember his quote. It wasn't too friendly toward the small-type calves. Something like "You will be found out...".

I'm sure that I'll catch some heat from some on the board for only worrying about what the feedlots want and not what works for the rancher or makes the rancher a profit. Not my intention. Just makes sense to me to create a product that will be in demand. Looks to me like Soapweed and FH, to name two that come to mind right away, have taken that approach.

As for me, if I could build my own ideal cow? Likely somewhere in the middle of the road for mature size. Don't know where I'd be trying to run her. As I said, I don't have to put my money where my mouth is on this one since I don't own a cow. Wish I did.

It's been fun reading along with all of you on the board. From what I can see, many of you that have posted pics of your cows sure have the right kind. I forgot to measure them for frame score!

HP
 
I get the old line your cattle are too small when ever the auction mart pimps come out but my finished cattle average right at 1300 pounds. I'll take small and wide over tall and thin any day of the week.
 
There is more to size than height. You can have some awful big cattle with quite a bit of boldness in a package of less than 6 frame in height. Bone , thickness, width, length all contribute to the actual size of cattle. If you have any mass and quality to them at all a 5.5 frame cow will weigh 1300 or so I'd say.
 
Red Robin said:
I find on my place most of the cows that stay fat , breed back, and raise a decent calf are all cows with lots of chest floor and capacity and length. Epd's don't work for me. Some of the reason other type cows won't work here is the fescue . It's a washy type grass.

Epd's won't tell you how consistant a bull is at any particular trait.

High accuracy epd bulls have their data gathered in large part from environments different than mine so are skewed.

There are other reasons but for me epd's don't tell me much.
Click to expand...

RR not to take issue with you because I like the same type of cows you like, and most of the ones that I have, came about because of my using epds during my breeding selections. I think you'll find a lot of those high accuracy bulls have epd's that have been gathered all over the country simply because of their popularity. The Montana bulls that I have used have done pretty well on this TN fescue also.
 
TSR why don't we have a little fun. You tell me which bull (strictly using epd's) that you like and why. There is only one bull I would be interested in using.

http://www.agonline.com/bullbarn/angredepd.asp?ID=189
http://www.agonline.com/bullbarn/angredepd.asp?ID=9
http://www.agonline.com/bullbarn/angredepd.asp?ID=99
http://www.agonline.com/bullbarn/angredepd.asp?ID=188

One more thing TSR how many data points from say, 6807 (if you're an angus breeder) were gathered in Tn and how would that compare to Mt? I'm not saying the more popular bulls aren't used here , in Harrison Ar.
I am saying that as a percentile of data input, data gathered in my environment and under similiar management on 6807 is a small percentage thus might not be as accurate of a picture of how the bull will perform when compared to how he'd preform in Mt.
 
When I was selecting adaptd cattle in an extreme environment in Africa, the cow size remained a reasonably cosistant 1100 Lbs. My target market was producing easy care maternal traits for commercial producers for rotational and rotational crossbreeding programms. By being cosistant in my breeding policy and constantly conferring with my customers to ensure I keptup to date with their requirements.
I spoke to several local producers as well as the university, about the breed I wanted to use, and have plenty of support, especially since they have now had the oppertunity to observe the cows this summer, the idea of a low maintenance breed that will cross well with what they are already breeding is certainly attracting a lot of positive attention.
The commercial breeder can achieve what is needed by the market by crossbreeding, so by maintaining an F1 herd which is adapted, fertile and easy care, a terminal sire of the best marketable breed can then be used to achieve weight and phenotype for marketing, thus maximising overall profits.
 
RR, I hope TSR takes you up on this, I want to know which bull you'd use.
There certainly is a difference in EPD's and eye appeal between the four
bulls.

I noticed one bull went back to some Double Fork Red Angus bloodlines. Of course, that was John Robbins. I worked with John on advertising. He was a grand fellow. I just couldn't say enough good about him. One time the newspaper I worked for ran an ad for him, and at that time John was using a lot of reverse with red color. When we got our paper back, his ad was reverse with, of all things, BLUE color. I was so devastated
when I saw that, I called him right away knowing I was going to be in trouble. The least I figured would happen is that he wouldn't pay for his ad, and I wouldn't blame him. I got him on the phone and told him what happened and told him how bad I felt. You know what his response was? He said, "Folks been seeing that ad in red quite a bit. Maybe they'll look at it again in blue. It will look different. Don't worry about it."

You could have knocked me over with a stick. He was so gracious about that mistake. I never, ever forgot how he handled that. What a great guy!
I know others in advertising that felt exactly as I did, so this wasn't just an isolated incidence.
 
This is Jinglebob, usin' my dil's computer.

One thig abut size of cows; I had some tarentise cows and + breds. They wren't very big cows, but raised real big calves. They also took a lot of feed in the winter and I had one flat die, when it got real cold, while the red angus and longhorn and crosses did fine on the amount that they were getting for feed. The tarentaise just didn't cut it in this country, the way I was running them.

I had a neighbor who used them and he did real well. I got tired of the discount and maybe I was just buying the wrong kind of bull, but bottomline, there ain't no free lunch. You can't have it all and it's a balancing act.
 
If I had to pick one of those "wrong colored bulls" :wink: -- and since I know absolutely nothing about pedigrees and breeding on those red animals- I'd have to go with #4 Romeo- just on birthweight, birthweight EPD and stayability EPD... Most the others don't matter- got to be able to get bred and have a live calf and stay in the herd every year- everything else is just frosting on the cake....
 
Northern Rancher said:
I get the old line your cattle are too small when ever the auction mart pimps come out but my finished cattle average right at 1300 pounds. I'll take small and wide over tall and thin any day of the week.
Click to expand...

This is a very good quote but why do tall cows automatically have to be thin? I am sure everyone has seen short and thin also. I think everyone has very good points that have posted.

have a cold one

lazy ace
 
Tap there are some major flaws in that article.

Increased BW does not always lead to bigger mature cows, and the slaughter weight of the steers has nothing to do with the mature weight of the cow.

Ever seen a skinny little guy that eats 4 helping of supper and never gets fat? I know quite a few. They pack away more calories than I do, do less work but are much smaller than I am.

Figuring out the % of body weight a particular cow weans is not a true measure of her efficiency. If a smaller cow eats more to raise the same calf, she is actually less efficient.

Go out in a snowstorm and see which cows are most hungry, the skinny ones that are melting all the snow off themselves or the fat ones that use the snow as insulation.

It isn't feasible to feed every cow seperately and see which ones are most efficient, so we tend to feed to averages and wean averages. The outliers are culled.

One of the most interesting advances in testing is the individual feed conversion being done on some bulls now. Two bulls that both gain 3.5 pounds a day can have far different feed intake, and thus costs. If this trait is proven heritable we could really get some advantages going on cow feeding costs.

I for one could care less if a cow is big or small, I want her to raise a calf worth more than she cost me to keep her. I have culled some pretty good looking cows.
Click to expand...

You are a stubborn man Jason. :wink: :lol: I think that must be ok, because I am one also. Speaking of cattle, we are sort of like two old bulls that won't give an inch either way. :!:

Taking a line from one of my favorite comedians Dennis Miller- I don't wan't to go off on a rant here, but..............

To me this topic is very interesting and important. The decisions we make on our ranches effect things way out into the future. It takes so long to make changes with cattle. I was never here to tell anyone what they should do on their ranches. I just have preferences, and it is no skin off my nose if someone doesn't agree with me. However, too extreme one way or another probably isn't the best thing. It takes a long time to get back in the middle if that is what is needed. And there are even probably some out there that need to buy bulls that are extreme one way to compensate for cattle that are extreme the other way.

We have some cows that are way too big, but they (so far) have ran on grass and minimal supplement nearly all year, had a good calf and bred back again (in a short breeding season), so they get to stay. If we were not so busy, we should be out picking our replacement heifers while they are still on their mothers, so as to pick the heifers out of cows that we like. This ranch has been buying bulls from a herd in Wyoming that runs their cattle in a rough environment. I think a ranch should buy their bulls from someone that runs their cow herd in at least as tough of conditions as they do. Instead of the other way around.

I probably could go on all night with my opinions, but they are probably all wrong, so I will quit while I still have some room to dig. :P
 
lazy ace said:
This is a very good quote but why do tall cows automatically have to be thin? I am sure everyone has seen short and thin also. I think everyone has very good points that have posted.

have a cold one

lazy ace
Click to expand...

The problem I have with most tall cattle I see is, yes, they are taller, but they are also higher off the ground. Those longer legs really don't seem to add much weight. :wink:

Plus, then my fences are too low! :shock: :lol:

I like the kind who like their belly isn't too far off the ground.

But then, moderation in all things, too. :D

'Cept, arguin' about cattle and other things on Ranchers net! :lol:
 
I've only met John Robbins one time-he showed me around his plac e the day before his sale-he struck me as being a pretty down to earth kind of guy. He tol;d me Jim Leachman had more or less dragged him into the purebred business. It was a good trip I'd like to do it again sometime.
 
I think John has passed away and perhaps Kent has moved the purebred deal to Idaho. I'm just not sure. I think John had a silent partner, but
I can't recall for certain. Kent was a good bronc rider at one time. I have
just kind of lost track of them. John was first ranching south of Missoula, down the Bitterroot and then moved to Dillon with the cattle.

He was a Mormon Bishop, did you know that?
 
Faster horses said:
I think John has passed away and perhaps Kent has moved the purebred deal to Idaho. I'm just not sure. I think John had a silent partner, but
I can't recall for certain. Kent was a good bronc rider at one time. I have
just kind of lost track of them. John was first ranching south of Missoula, down the Bitterroot and then moved to Dillon with the cattle.

He was a Mormon Bishop, did you know that?
Click to expand...

FH:

Kent moved to Utah and his place is Miller's Rose Ranch, Snowville, UT.

Cheers---

TTB :wink:
 
Tap I agree with much of your sentiment. I try to get buyers to tell me what they are looking for in a bull... most just say they want the best one....best for what?

Usually when they say they want to get smaller cows, I'll show them a bull from one of my smallest cows, and they start "well he's not big enough" or something like that.

I had one buyer from Oregon in the yard one year, he would only look at the biggest 3 bulls in the pen after he told me he wanted cheap trader type bulls. I was told the top bull that year was better than a bull that sold the fall previous for $20K. I wound up selling him on a load of 25 bulls to Idaho for $3000. He did sell me a lot more bulls in subsequent years.

Think back to Soaps pictures about selecting bulls this spring, there were a lot of frame 6 and 7 bulls in those shots. I'll garantee the cows that produced those bulls weren't small. They probably weren't monsters either, but not small. I would be proud to have a pen of bulls like the ones I saw.

Over the years the really small cows here just haven't cut it. They come in open. I have a handfull of really small cows, but they throw big calves and survive.

While I was feeding this spring, I watched the cows eat. Some would just start choking down as much as fast as they could, some would nibble and some would walk the line looking for something better. The nibblers were the thinnest, the walkers were mixed with some fat and some thinner. The gobblers were in decent shape, but 1 in particular lost a lot of weight as she milked herself silly, but she bred. She was the smallest cow of the show herd I started looking after for a friend. They were all almost grossly fat in the fall, and all lost some weight, but the big cows held most of the flesh.

The only rule you can make with cows is...there are no rules. Use what works for you. If you have the wrong kind, the market will weed you out. There is always someone that can make what seems impossible to the rest of us work. That's what makes this biz so much fun I guess.
 

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