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Frame size and genetics. This IS NOT a biased thread.

mytfarms

mytfarms

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Hi all,
It seems the more I learn the less I know. The more I learn how to live a better life, the more faults I find with myself. After talking with Dad tonight, I have FINALLY decided to stick to my guns and pour myself into doing what I love best; raising and breeding better cows. Although genetics is my passion, I gotta start with some sort of basics. I want ya'll to educate me on frame size and how it is passed on or lack of passing it on. What affects frame score? Environment? Is it more affected by genetics? How much of a factor is frame in your programs? Thanks to all of you for your help and I can't wait for answers.
Thanks to all of you on Ranchers.
Cade
 
I was at a point about 10 years ago where I thought I needed to reduce frame size. Through selection of slightly smaller bulls, 6.5 to 7 frame to 5.5 to 6 I think I have made quite a bit of progress in the size of my cows. But with that being said another thing I really stressed in bull selection is volume and capacity. That's what Angus cattle were bred to be back in the day but in the race to keep up with Continental breeds the frame creep started back in the 70's.

My Dad thinks the bulls I am using are too small but I tell him in my opinion they are so deep that it makes their legs look shorter. But really their frame is not very much less than they used to be. I just got so tired of tall pipeline looking cattle and to this day I am very critical on my replacement heifers if they don't have lots of capacity.

Some people think feeder calves that don't have a lot of style "tall framey looking" will look too pudgy and short in the sale ring but I've fed enough cattle that I know the ones that can eat more can gain more and less days on feed means more profit.

I think frame size is almost entirely determined by genetics with environment being a smaller factor. Don't worry about changing your mind about what you think your direction and breed of cattle will be, you
are young enough to change your mind dozens of more times in the years to come. :wink:
 
Big Swede said:
I was at a point about 10 years ago where I thought I needed to reduce frame size. Through selection of slightly smaller bulls, 6.5 to 7 frame to 5.5 to 6 I think I have made quite a bit of progress in the size of my cows. But with that being said another thing I really stressed in bull selection is volume and capacity. That's what Angus cattle were bred to be back in the day but in the race to keep up with Continental breeds the frame creep started back in the 70's.

My Dad thinks the bulls I am using are too small but I tell him in my opinion they are so deep that it makes their legs look shorter. But really their frame is not very much less than they used to be. I just got so tired of tall pipeline looking cattle and to this day I am very critical on my replacement heifers if they don't have lots of capacity.

Some people think feeder calves that don't have a lot of style "tall framey looking" will look too pudgy and short in the sale ring but I've fed enough cattle that I know the ones that can eat more can gain more and less days on feed means more profit.

I think frame size is almost entirely determined by genetics with environment being a smaller factor. Don't worry about changing your mind about what you think your direction and breed of cattle will be, you
are young enough to change your mind dozens of more times in the years to come. :wink:
Click to expand...

Begging your pardon, I've changed it 46 different times in the last week! :roll: However, that is some excellent info. BTW, Big Swede, did you notice how certain framed bulls affected their calves? I mean were they a lot smaller, bigger, or did they stay the same, breeding to a smaller framed bull?
 
My frame scores gradually decreased, not something you would notice with one calf crop. If I had jumped way down to a 3 or 4 frame bull there would have been a noticeable difference right away I'll bet.
 
Hey all,
Just adding my two cents on frame size discussion.

You can knock the frame off of your replacement heifers in the first generation if you go to a good frame 3 bull. Even a two. True, your neighbors will snicker. We have used a frame 3 bull for the past 4 years. Because we are a grassfed beef operation, we need smaller framed animals... with capacity... to get them finished on forages alone in a timely manner. The bull McDuff pictured on our web page at age 3, grew up to be an 1800 pound bull. We have some purchased cows still that tend to pack more frame than what is good for our program. In all but one case he knocks that frame down to produce a good replacement or calf for grass finishing. In the one instance where Duff's frame 3 genes didn't moderate a framey cow's genes, we ended up with a steer that couldn't finish until 3 years of age.

A lot really depends on your market, or where you project your market is headed. If energy prices soar again (and who here thinks they will not?), lower input cattle are going to find their way into popularity out of necessity. I really believe frame score and input have a pretty strong correlation.. but true, differences exist in efficiency within every frame score. Also cattle that will eat a wider variety of forages/weeds/browse give their owners a financial advantage. Our cows eat the buckbrush in the winter (Symphoricarpos orbiculatus) that is called 'worthless for cattle' in the forage guide. They browse off the outer 5 inches or so of every clump of the stuff. There are acres of it in a pasture we lease. A forage analysis told a different tale. It was equivalent to good prairie hay.
Ok, way to windy.
Best,

http://www.renfarms.com
 
In my opinion there is no need to raise large framed cows that require more feed to produce the amount of energy they need. Why not go with a smaller framed cow and look to your bull to bring in more vigor. The smaller cow consumes less feed to get her job done leaving more profit and making the banker smile a little more.
 
CattleArmy said:
In my opinion there is no need to raise large framed cows that require more feed to produce the amount of energy they need. Why not go with a smaller framed cow and look to your bull to bring in more vigor. The smaller cow consumes less feed to get her job done leaving more profit and making the banker smile a little more.
Click to expand...

That makes good sense to me.
 
That's why the exotics made us soo much money when they first came in-small little cows were bringing in big stout calves. Now we had big beautiful hooved graineries doing bout the same thing!!!
 
When I started out in a very challenging environment, I used a breed that was totally adapted to the environment, able to thrive on grazing/browsing with only a mineral suppliment. The cows never exceeded 1100 lbs and out performed all other breeds on a lbs/ acre basis, at the lowest cost.
For those supplying feedlots, heavier, terminal sires were used giving the bigger frame required by the feedlots, and a good boost of heterosis. Selecting performers within the environment makes the best financial sense.
 

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