Haymaker

[Big Muddy rancher]

I was looking at your pictures and it got me to wondering since Nortexsok asked how we could raise cattle in the north with having to feed hay in the winter. How can you raise cattle in the south and feed hay.

 

[HAY MAKER]

I was looking at your pictures and it got me to wondering since Nortexsok asked how we could raise cattle in the north with having to feed hay in the winter. How can you raise cattle in the south and feed hay.

How can I ,or why do I ?

How can I .................use home grown hay,you wont make a cent buyin cattle feed,if you figure labor.

Why do I..........drought,there are no winter forages around here,damnned drought really has me thinking about this cow/calf deal,just hard to put together a set of cows and see the weather force you to sell.
I am thinking about running a stocker program,gets dry,no big deal,move them or sell them,thats hard to do for a cow/calf man.
good luck

PS besides,you oughta know if you can feed hay in that country and make it work,it would be easier in a milder climate.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

Why the green grass around the corral?

Maybe your just running to many cows for your grass.

 

[HAY MAKER]

Why the green grass around the corral?

Maybe your just running to many cows for your grass.

Sometimes i get a few too many on one place,when the weather forces me to scramble and the markets are depressed.
Thats usually temporary,around here its all about moisture,as all our grasses go dormant with the first frost,then fill the lick tanks,pray for rain and watch the wheat/oat fields.feed hay as needed.
good luck

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

Why the green grass around the corral?

Maybe your just running to many cows for your grass.

Sometimes i get a few too many on one place,when the weather forces me to scramble and the markets are depressed.
Thats usually temporary,around here its all about moisture,as all our grasses go dormant with the first frost,then fill the lick tanks,pray for rain and watch the wheat/oat fields.feed hay as needed.
good luck

Our grass goes dormant every year but usually only deep snow and extreme cold stop us from grazing.

 

[RobertMac]

Why the green grass around the corral?

Maybe your just running to many cows for your grass.

Sometimes i get a few too many on one place,when the weather forces me to scramble and the markets are depressed.
Thats usually temporary,around here its all about moisture,as all our grasses go dormant with the first frost,then fill the lick tanks,pray for rain and watch the wheat/oat fields.feed hay as needed.
good luck

Our grass goes dormant every year but usually only deep snow and extreme cold stop us from grazing.

The problem with our dormant summer grass is our high temps and high moisture...the dead tops simply rot away. Two days ago I was sweating in a tee shirt with about 95% humidity...+70 degrees F. In Dec. I had about 12 inches of rain...if Haymaker had asked, I'd gladly let him have most of it! :wink: The other issue is acres per head...I run about 2.5A/head...March to Oct.(with good moisture) I have ample forage. 10A/head I would feed almost nothing.

 

[per]

Sometimes i get a few too many on one place,when the weather forces me to scramble and the markets are depressed.
Thats usually temporary,around here its all about moisture,as all our grasses go dormant with the first frost,then fill the lick tanks,pray for rain and watch the wheat/oat fields.feed hay as needed.
good luck

Our grass goes dormant every year but usually only deep snow and extreme cold stop us from grazing.

The problem with our dormant summer grass is our high temps and high moisture...the dead tops simply rot away. Two days ago I was sweating in a tee shirt with about 95% humidity...+70 degrees F. In Dec. I had about 12 inches of rain...if Haymaker had asked, I'd gladly let him have most of it! :wink: The other issue is acres per head...I run about 2.5A/head...March to Oct.(with good moisture) I have ample forage. 10A/head I would feed almost nothing.

In a more brittle climate like Haymakers would the dormate forage still rot?

 

[theony]

Our native range has Buffalo grass, holds nutrients when dormant. Cows will do good all Winter. Trouble is it only grows up to about 8 inches tall. Get a foot of snow early like this year and grazing is about done until the South slopes melt off.

 

[burnt]

The problem with our dormant summer grass is our high temps and high moisture...the dead tops simply rot away. Two days ago I was sweating in a tee shirt with about 95% humidity...+70 degrees F. In Dec. I had about 12 inches of rain...if Haymaker had asked, I'd gladly let him have most of it! :wink: The other issue is acres per head...I run about 2.5A/head...March to Oct.(with good moisture) I have ample forage. 10A/head I would feed almost nothing.

RM, from which part of the state do you hail?

I just had the honour of hosting my buddy from Macon, MS. for breakfast when he was up here to visit his inlaws. He seemed to think that -8C was kinda chilly until I told him it had just warmed up from -20C!!

 

[RobertMac]

Our grass goes dormant every year but usually only deep snow and extreme cold stop us from grazing.

The problem with our dormant summer grass is our high temps and high moisture...the dead tops simply rot away. Two days ago I was sweating in a tee shirt with about 95% humidity...+70 degrees F. In Dec. I had about 12 inches of rain...if Haymaker had asked, I'd gladly let him have most of it! :wink: The other issue is acres per head...I run about 2.5A/head...March to Oct.(with good moisture) I have ample forage. 10A/head I would feed almost nothing.

In a more brittle climate like Haymakers would the dormate forage still rot?

I would think not, but I've never worked in the arid climates.
Haymaker's problem is that he is in a hard drought...I'm sure he doesn't have any dormant forage to rot if he doesn't have moisture to grow winter annuals.

We all have our special environmental requirements for our cattle. That is why I have always thought it to be stupid for a producer in the southeast to buy a bull/semen from Montana and vise versa. My belief is to keep cows that are developed for your environment with as little inputs needed to maintain adequate BCS(the main criteria being breed back) and use bulls from those cows to strengthen those traits. If I have a few cows with ribs showing and the majority are BCS 5 or better, I figure I'm feeding about right.

Different subject...I read an article where a breeder was blaming the lack Prime/choice carcasses on crossbreeding???

 

[per]

RM, I have heard that as well. Not sure what to think of it as a commercial guy. Do you use Ultrasound as a tool to determine the grading ability of a bull? How much validity would you give it?

You answer on the brittle grass was what I expected to hear. Rain makes good ranchers out of us dry environment guys. It would be a real challenge for me to operate in your climate.

 

[the_jersey_lilly_2000]

We have a fella here, joins one of our fences, that feeds no hay in the winter time. BUT......I don't think he's really in the cow business to make any money. He's a lawyer by trade. Has about 1000 acres, and only runs about 50 mama's. Has real pretty fences. Lots of different pastures sectioned off. He puts out the syrup licks in winter (which ours is only November thru Feb), and just rotates his cows from pasture to pasture. He does plant some winter rye grass. He paid in the neighborhood of $5000 per acre for what he owns along with stupid high taxes each year. So......how long's it gonna take before his 50 head of mama's start showin a profit if ever?

One of those cases where ya say, "It's not impossible to do......but if you didn't inherit the land....it's not profitable."

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

We have a fella here, joins one of our fences, that feeds no hay in the winter time. BUT......I don't think he's really in the cow business to make any money. He's a lawyer by trade. Has about 1000 acres, and only runs about 50 mama's. Has real pretty fences. Lots of different pastures sectioned off. He puts out the syrup licks in winter (which ours is only November thru Feb), and just rotates his cows from pasture to pasture. He does plant some winter rye grass. He paid in the neighborhood of $5000 per acre for what he owns along with stupid high taxes each year. So......how long's it gonna take before his 50 head of mama's start showin a profit if ever?

One of those cases where ya say, "It's not impossible to do......but if you didn't inherit the land....it's not profitable."

Lilly, aside from land costs which differ operation to operation I think what some of us are getting at is profit/ cow. He feeds no hay but rotates his cows between pastures. His cost to produce a calf could be lower then someone that over grazes and and feeds hay.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

I was hoping this thread would generate a bit more discussion.
I didn't have much time and I know others on here have a more holistic approach then I do or at least have put more in to practice.
What Lilly was saying about her neighbor got me to thinking about running numbers and being more "profitable". Somebody else mentioned that they could run more cows if the fed some in the winter. Do some of you have different ideas? One thing if by feeding cows and you lose money do you make more automatically by running more cows?

 

[RobertMac]

Burnt, I missed your post earlier...Macon is about 50 miles due north of me. Being way up north of me, your buddy shouldn't be complaining about cold temps. :wink: :wink:

BMR, it seems that anything the least bit controversial about raising cattle doesn't get much discussion here.

Per, I haven't used Ultrasound because I haven't gotten my herd to the consistency of production where I think it would be useful to me. Plus, the majority of my customers prefer lean meat...got to educate them that most all the good stuff about beef is in the fat! But I think Ultrasound is the best tool to use for selection after good ole common cow sense. Dr. Allen Williams says he can pick out animals that have been stressed in their past by looking at their ultrasound. He says the first thing stressed cattle lose is their marbling. If we want to make better beef, we need to look at the amount we stress our calves from conception to the kill floor.
Just for the record, I think EPDs have done more harm than good!

 

[per]

RM, we have found a bull supplier that uses UT on all his offerings and his cows are treated much like a commercial guy does. Seldom do the bulls we purchase from him not work. I feel the same about EPDs although there is some info that is useful. We have tracked our pasture to plate hanging results for several years but our commercial mainstream animals it is much more difficult. This year with the advent of Canada Gold Beef we will be able to receive our hanging results on them all. Then it will be the challenge of knowing what to do with the information.

Do you follow or use any Reams Theories in you dirt management? He and Albrecht did some work together

 

[burnt]

Well BMr, I am about to do a little discovery on the very topic that you bring up. I need to figure out what we are going to do with regard to replacing our cattle housing facilities so sometime this week, we are going run a cashflow based on differing cowherd sizes. A bigger herd will spread the cost of a new barn, but we will need to buy more feed in order to run a bigger herd. Can we come out ahead?

John Harrington from DTN is not what one could call optimistic about the long term prospects for finishing cattle due to competition from lower priced pork and poultry. So expanding the herd can reduce overhead, but if one isn't getting enough return from the marketplace, he could just end up losing a bit less per head on a larger herd???? :???:

 

[Big Swede]

BMR, I have been thinking about your question for years but never really pushed the pencil enough to come to any conclusions.

Here is an example, let's say a rancher is running 600 head of cows on a cow calf enterprise on his own land and raising feed enough to feed those cows for 4 to 5 months during the winter. He is using rotational grazing to increase his stocking capacity so he is near the limit on numbers of cows he can run during the growing season. He has some crop land that he grazes but that only lasts a month or two.

The question is "How many less cows would he need to run on his land so that he could sell his haying machinery and have it put up on shares or possibly convert his hayground to pasture and buy a little hay for extreme weather?" What would your estimate be on herd reduction? 100 head, 200 head, or maybe not even that much if he tweaked some of his grazing practices, like even more intensive grazing management.

The cost of owning and replacing iron on an operation plus the expense of repairs, fuel, oil, labor, depreciation, insurance, etc. etc. to keep that iron moving is a huge factor in profit and loss in ranching. Have any of you ever considered changes like this or is it too far out of your comfort zones to even consider?

I know an operation that has made this switch and are very happy with the results and increased profit that came with it. It takes courage to try something different and I commend them for it. Personally I'm still in the planning stages but change is hard.

Some of you on this site probably made a very good profit this last year and I would bet that the most profitable ones were managing their operations much like the example in this post.

I agree with BMR, a discussion on this topic might be the most important topic that could be discussed.

 

[HAY MAKER]

I guess there are hunderds of ways to ranch,and everybody knows,what worked well this year,aint worth a damn the year after,I try and run as many cows as mother nature will allow,around here thats what dictates pasture carying capacity.......pure and simple,RAIN,whatever that is.
good luck

 

[efb]

BMR .. to get back to your question, I think the type of grass has more to do with haying than climate. Some grasses stockpile better than others. Shortgrasses, ie.. buffalo, grammas etc. are much better dormant sources of protein than other grasses. Where I grew up in the Flint hills I thought we had the best grass in the world, but it won't winter cattle as well as the shortgrass country. Down here in NE TX my cows are in what you would think was awsome grass right now, but without supplemental feed they would starve to death with a calf on them. I do have a good friend who is running stockers strictly on stockpile grass with no supplement of any kind and they are doing okay. You can't do it with lactating cows however. Every situation is different and you have to figure out what will work in your situation. I am trying to cut down on my winter feed cost. I am going to switch from fall calving to spring calving as one way. I think I can cut my supplemental feeding by half by doing that.