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HD Carriers list released

Some great points TTB.

I can't see why any PB breeder would not want this out in the open once it had been proven. The use of new technology should be a benefit earlier breeders could only wish they had use of.
 
TTB- I have no skin in the game....I don't have any cattle that trace to any of the so far positive cattle- and doubt if I will as I didn't like Precision ... In fact the bloodlines of the purebred cattle I have probably just got pricier because they are not made up of "bull of the month"-"bigger, better, faster" bloodlines....I learned my lesson with those with my commercial cows and enough fertility, udder, and foot problems to cure me...I think it is the reason you are seeing the higher demand for the Cole Creek, Deboo, Shoshone, etc. cattle lately..

But I do know some folks that lost big money- and some that just got thru having a bull sale with bulls sired by now positive HD carriers- that went into someones commercial herd- many that don't know a thing about all this because it was only made public in the last few months...

And from everything I can read and gather- everything (including the names of many of the sires named) that the Australians were reporting- are now being reported in the US- two years later...

And some of those folks that lost lots are already talking lawsuit- which liability like you talk of is probably what kept the bull studs and AAA from making reports public info....

But just like was learned in the Tobbacco lawsuit-- openness and transparency will cost you a lot less in the long run, than secrecy and deception....Hopefully thats not whats found that happened...
 
Big Muddy rancher said:
Some great points TTB.

I can't see why any PB breeder would not want this out in the open once it had been proven. The use of new technology should be a benefit earlier breeders could only wish they had use of.
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Thanks BMR. I think one of the hold ups on getting every new registration DNA parent verified/tested is cost. Admittedly it would cost our outfit a lot more to test our entire registered calf crop than it does our entire foal crop.

I do want to say one thing about what I think is one of the best things the RAAA breed has, and that is total herd reporting. Every calf from every female. I honestly believe that sped up finding our genetic problem. Otherwise, if the breeders had not have been forthcoming, they just could have not registered the calf. In our breed, if the calf is dead, you have to say so. THR didn't come without strife in the breed, but I think all of us today would say it has been well worth it!

My opinion is the minute you get cocky enough to say your operation/herd/etc is free of anything is the minute you'll have something. Trust me, I don't rest on my laurels that just because most of herd has a documented carrier eight generations back, means it's free. It means there was a documented carrier eight gens back. We too need to test. Just like I'd say OT should get to testing, if he isn't already. If he isn't, he's like all the others who have stuck their head in the sand! Just because you don't have a currently "dirty" pedigree doesn't mean you don't have a carrier. Having that mentality is what gets everyone in trouble. All of these defects have been around for centuries...and don't forget about pedigree errors...innocent mistakes from ethical breeders for as long as records have been kept. Don't kid yourself.

I wouldn't be surprised if more genes are found impacting these defects. When that happens more carriers will likely be found. I hope I'm wrong, but wouldn't be surprised if I'm right (for the conspiracy theorists out there...I'm no more in the "know" than anyone else, just going off what I know about genetic defects in other species.)

OT, I just read your post, you do have a skin in the game because you are a Black Angus breeder...each and every breeder has a stake. If you don't take your responsibility seriously, you are no better than those you accuse.

Thanks Yanuck. I appreciate you bringing this forth. My frustration with the AAA is it is hard to find this info on their website...almost like they are trying to hide it.

Cheers---

TTB :wink:
 
Perfectly said Turkey Track Bar! I am all for using available technology to help track defects and also to highlight good traits. And while i am sure some breeders fudge reports and may be downright crooked, the VAST majority of seedstock producers are hard working and honorable. To think that ALL A.I. companies and ALL bull producers are ALL hiding something is just not believable to me! :wink:
 
TTB
OT, I just read your post, you do have a skin in the game because you are a Black Angus breeder...each and every breeder has a stake. If you don't take your responsibility seriously, you are no better than those you accuse.
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I take the responsibility very seriously- but don't have any reason to sue because I probably gained rather than lost-anyway if the people that have contacted me to save bulls for them that aren't from these high performance cattle that are all showing up Genetic Mutation positive is any indication .....
I Also realize that a genetic problem can show up in any matchings of cattle/horses- but think it should be looked into and made apparent rather than SSS.....

But on the same hand- doesn't those breeders that have some sires now 30 years old testing positive for these defects- plus the Bull Studs (some of which had big money invested in these sires they were getting reports of problems on :???: )- plus the association that is supposed to work for the betterment of the breed- that reportedly sat on many of these reports, until a new change of administration came into place lately, have a responsibility to both the seedstock and the commercial angus producers :???: Why when I called my State Directors 2-3 years ago about the rumors running rampant about genetic defects in Future Direction (people I know and trust) did they not know anything about the Australian investigation that the Australian Vets claim had been reported over and over to the Bull Studs and the Association :???: Why did the Scientists/Veterinarians in Australia have to bring it out on a website (advantagecattle)-- and get a large public outcry of membership that got so bad the AAA looked into it- and we are where we are today :???:

While I agree there is a responsibility to protect these breeders and semen peddlers multi thousand $ investments- isn't there a bigger responsibilty to represent the commercial cattlemen they are supposed to be supplying with a good genetic offering- and the integrity of the breed :???:
 
How do you know the association wasn't looking into it-after seeing first hand what the semen collection protocol is like in New Zealand I'd be pretty darn skeptical about any research I see coming out of that corner of the globe. I know when my parent company found out FOR SURE that a bull had a genetic defect his semen was removed from the market and your field inventory was destroyed- the 7D7 bull comes to mind. Think about it-the short term gain of selling a defective bull would in no way compensate for the long term loss of customer trust. But hey the blame game is where it's at-it kept that B.S organization R-Calf afloat a few years past it's natural lifespan too.
 
I think the most exciting thing is that we are developing tests as rapidly as we are. 5 years ago the technology did not even exist to find the defect and develop the test.
I won't say we have never used any offenders in our commercial herd, but we also have DNA on file on every cow and can test our herdsires and our cows for parentage and even the defect if it becomes an issue.
I really see the problem in straightbred cowherds (like ours :lol: ), a little crossbreeding can go a long way toward eliminating problems through.
 
Another point to think of- is with this Fawn Calf stuff seemingly tracing back to not only some of the Precision bloodlines- but if the Aussies are correct in their research (which they have been so far) to bulls like Bando 598 and his great great granddam Freestate Barbara 871 of Kaf - your looking at animals from the 70's and 30+ years of these defects....

As has been brought up by some- most of these black continental breeds like the black simmis and black gelbvieh- derived from commercial angus cattle- that no pedigrees were kept on- that were then bred up to become registered black simmental or black gelbvieh over the years...And also the many balancer/composite animals that are being marketed....

So this may take in much more of the cattle world than just the angus world....
 
Oldtimer said:
Another point to think of- is with this Fawn Calf stuff seemingly tracing back to not only some of the Precision bloodlines- but if the Aussies are correct in their research (which they have been so far) to bulls like Bando 598 and his great great granddam Freestate Barbara 871 of Kaf - your looking at animals from the 70's and 30+ years of these defects....

As has been brought up by some- most of these black continental breeds like the black simmis and black gelbvieh- derived from commercial angus cattle- that no pedigrees were kept on- that were then bred up to become registered black simmental or black gelbvieh over the years...And also the many balancer/composite animals that are being marketed....

So this may take in much more of the cattle world than just the angus world....
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You're right... I've got one Balancer bull who goes back to 1680. I still say I have more of a chance of losing them to brisket than to these defects. Hope I'm right :-).
 
I think it's much ado about a minor problem. I've got about 30 potential carrier's most are sired by a bull I bought so I'll test him than a few are cow's and their off spring. One cow in particular is one of our highest producer's so I hope she's negative. She will make a hell of a commercial cow though..Maybe we should all jump on the Hereford bandwagon. :wink:
 
Denny said:
Maybe we should all jump on the Hereford bandwagon. :wink:
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Denny, you just hit the motive here. One of the people involved in all this " media rush" regarding all these issues with the Angus is:

#1....a Hereford man who is known to carry a grudge against Angus/marketing etc and it's overwhelming success.

#2....has a MAJOR financial interest in the lab that will do ALL the testing for these genetic flaws.

Do the math....about $28 per head for ALL the reg Angus.....that's quiet a chunk of change no matter how you split it.
 
What would you American's do without a conspiracy theory lol. Other breeds have dealt with genetic gliches throughout the years I'm sure the Angus breed will too. Until then there's always F-R 552 Lad 20P lol-now wasn't that shameless.
 
>>You're right... I've got one Balancer bull who goes back to 1680. I still say I have more of a chance of losing them to brisket than to these defects. Hope I'm right<<

Hard to say how much you lose. Sometimes you'll never know as the fetus will be aborted and the cow just comes up open and you blame and cull the cow. Or It aborts the first pregnancy, takes on the second without the recessive showing up and your calf is 6 weeks younger. You lost pounds. Again, you didn't know.

As always there is more to it than meets the eye.
 
An e-mail thats making the circles- and again creating a stir- especially the part about allowing future female "carriers" to be registered and used as seedstock producers..... :???:

http://www.anguselist.com/volume0409/v0409anguselist44.html
 
I am with you oldtimer on this one. How many recessive trait carriers does one animal have have before an idividual animal is out of the registry. For example if my donor cow tests positive for AM,HD and FCS is she really a valuable breeding tool? There are too many good genetics available to mess around with this stuff.
 

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