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Heifer Bull

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I get it now, I am going to go and get a big birthweight bull just to prove I can live with the cows and pull big calves. yep thats what I'll do. :wink:
 
This is interesting reading people's thoughts on what is an acceptable percentage of assists on their cows and heifers. Personally if a 3 year old and older cow can't calve unassisted on this place it's my fault for selecting a wrong sire. I don't weigh my calves but the biggest ones are probably in the 90's. I try to keep the heifers calves birth weights in the 70's or less.

In the last 3 years while calving on grass every cow has calved unassisted. I helped one heifer each of the last 3 years. I don't consider my herd to be a "light birth weight" herd but calving problems are virtually nonexistent here. The thought of having to help even 1% or 2% of mature cows would drive me nuts.
 
I would think that 5% might be about right as you do get calves with breech presentation, backward legs and other problems that I feel are just a part of mother nature.

With my small herd 5% would be one a year but I'm pressing my luck as it has been 3 years since I've had a problem.
 
A breed average epd, a nice tapered head , Good feet & legs & calves that get right up and suck . Thats what I call a heifer bull . Light birth wts . =short gestation period . The more you chase light birth wts the shorter it gets . A cow herd that can get it done on its own is what I want . Thats where the money is ....
 
We have about 400 calves in the mature cows here-one mp that we helped-I can't imagine helping a mature cow have a normallly presented calf that's a bit of management disease. There are around two hundred hfrs calving the three assists there on normal presentations were from one group that has a bit more power bred into them. Over the years in the A'I business I've run into herds trying to 'breed out' of a big BW problem. It's not an easy or profitable task. There's a whole bunch of profitable cattle that can be born into that 70-90 pound range-then if you do get a calf go overdue or whatever it's usually not a problem. Everything comes at a price but the bill for using easier calving genetics is less painful than the opposite end.
 
NR you are right I do not want to end up with the dilema of trying to breed out of a BW problem. The only thing I want that is mediocre is a BW. I don't shoot for little calves, just a mediocre BW but that will wean with the rest. It's not that hard, just due diligence in bull selection
 
Low birthweight is not the whole picture, conformation of the calf is also important, heavy shoulders in a relatively small calf can cause problems in heifers. Another consideration in low birthweights, is how well will the calf gain weight? (the Jersey certainly won't)
When I first started keeping cattle I was at school with nobody to check them during the day, so my breed choice was based on minimal calving problems, later I had a demanding military commitment, the ranch was in an area infiltrated by insurgents, so my wife had limited access to the herd while I was away, so the breed choice remained a priority, average calf weight of 75 lbs, and long/thin conformation, their being able to be up and active quickly was important with a large leopard population on the ranch.
 
andybob said:
Low birthweight is not the whole picture, conformation of the calf is also important, heavy shoulders in a relatively small calf can cause problems in heifers. Another consideration in low birthweights, is how well will the calf gain weight? (the Jersey certainly won't)
When I first started keeping cattle I was at school with nobody to check them during the day, so my breed choice was based on minimal calving problems, later I had a demanding military commitment, the ranch was in an area infiltrated by insurgents, so my wife had limited access to the herd while I was away, so the breed choice remained a priority, average calf weight of 75 lbs, and long/thin conformation, their being able to be up and active quickly was important with a large leopard population on the ranch.
Click to expand...


I am always amazed and in awe of where you ranched. Insurgents and leopards, we have gophers and coyotes. :shock:
 
Many think that heavy bw problems can be solved by using a light
bw bull. NOT SO! BW is more heritable from the cow than from the bull.
Once you get big birthweights in your cow herd, it takes a long time to
eliminate it. And it can pop back up anytime.

We did not want to assist anything. Our night calver, who worked for us for 10 years,
says he can count on one hand the heifers he had to help or
the calving problems he had while working here. That's just the way we like it.
I am totally with NR in his assestment.
Our weaning weights did not suffer
because of not having heavy bw calves.
Sure, we didn't sell 700 lb. calves in the fall...nor was that ever our goal.
600+ pound calves worked for us. We started calving March 25
and tried to get the calves off the cows by Oct. 10th by selling
to a country order buyer. Most of the time, that worked.

It has been mentioned here about calves that get up and go by themselves--
that's been really important to us as well. An old friend
had a theory that the "big, dumb calves" were that way because they
suffered lack of oxygen in the birth canal because of taking too long
to be born. I think he had something there.
 
I've noticed with lighter birth weights, malpresentations seem reduced (or maybe they're just having them on their own). I know I could wean heavier calves in the fall if I chose growth bulls, but I'd rather stick with as much calving ease as possible :wink: :D .
 
Faster horses said:
Many think that heavy bw problems can be solved by using a light
bw bull. NOT SO! BW is more heritable from the cow than from the bull.
Once you get big birthweights in your cow herd, it takes a long time to
eliminate it. And it can pop back up anytime.

We did not want to assist anything. Our night calver, who worked for us for 10 years,
says he can count on one hand the heifers he had to help or
the calving problems he had while working here. That's just the way we like it.
I am totally with NR in his assestment.
Our weaning weights did not suffer
because of not having heavy bw calves.
Sure, we didn't sell 700 lb. calves in the fall...nor was that ever our goal.
600+ pound calves worked for us. We started calving March 25
and tried to get the calves off the cows by Oct. 10th by selling
to a country order buyer. Most of the time, that worked.

It has been mentioned here about calves that get up and go by themselves--
that's been really important to us as well. An old friend
had a theory that the "big, dumb calves" were that way because they
suffered lack of oxygen in the birth canal because of taking too long
to be born. I think he had something there.
Click to expand...

I sure agree with you about maternal contribution--I remember weighing the calves from 50 straws of EXT---who at that time had enuf on the ground for his epd's to be fairly accurate---calves varied from 68# to 108#

A point on heavier calves: Say there's a 6 cent spread between 600 and 700 pounders. When you sell the 700#, you're actually getting 36$ less for the first 600# than if you had all 6 weight calves. So how much are you actually getting for the extra hundred pounds?

Guys promoting creep feed didn't use to like it when I'd help them 'do the math' on how much i'd actually be making with their 'cheaply put on added weight'
 
Big Muddy, didn't think much of it at the time, it was part of our lives, our girls did look cute with a baby on one hip and a sub machine gun on the other :D
FH, I can't agree more, my main focus has always been to breed the Tuli and F1 crosses as a damline, before I began exporting in 1978, my main income was from sale of F1 damlines mainly for use to terminal sires, when I lived in NC, there was widespread interest in the concept of buying in damline heifers to maximise easy keeping and heterosis.
 
With all due respect........IF you have a night calver......you have a problem.
 
You are right. We got too old to go all day and check cattle at night,
so we had a feller come at midnight til 5 am. It was mostly due to
weather that we had a night calver. He checked at midnight
and at three if the weather was bad. He'll be the first to tell you he
had very little to do, actually. But it made us rest better. Our calving
pasture didn't have much as far as protection, but it was better
than bringing them into lots to calve. We had it set up pretty good.
He kept a horse in the barn and rode through the cows on his check.

Where we are, the weather isn't the best and if a storm comes,
we need to check cattle, if that's all the same to you. Calving
time for us was March 25 to April 25, so our calving season wasn't
strung out. If we were to keep calving, we would start May 1...

Ah, well, we are semi-retired now and we don't owe anyone an explanation.
 
littlejoe said:
Faster horses said:
Many think that heavy bw problems can be solved by using a light
bw bull. NOT SO! BW is more heritable from the cow than from the bull.
Once you get big birthweights in your cow herd, it takes a long time to
eliminate it. And it can pop back up anytime.

We did not want to assist anything. Our night calver, who worked for us for 10 years,
says he can count on one hand the heifers he had to help or
the calving problems he had while working here. That's just the way we like it.
I am totally with NR in his assestment.
Our weaning weights did not suffer
because of not having heavy bw calves.
Sure, we didn't sell 700 lb. calves in the fall...nor was that ever our goal.
600+ pound calves worked for us. We started calving March 25
and tried to get the calves off the cows by Oct. 10th by selling
to a country order buyer. Most of the time, that worked.

It has been mentioned here about calves that get up and go by themselves--
that's been really important to us as well. An old friend
had a theory that the "big, dumb calves" were that way because they
suffered lack of oxygen in the birth canal because of taking too long
to be born. I think he had something there.
Click to expand...

I sure agree with you about maternal contribution--I remember weighing the calves from 50 straws of EXT---who at that time had enuf on the ground for his epd's to be fairly accurate---calves varied from 68# to 108#
A point on heavier calves: Say there's a 6 cent spread between 600 and 700 pounders. When you sell the 700#, you're actually getting 36$ less for the first 600# than if you had all 6 weight calves. So how much are you actually getting for the extra hundred pounds?

Guys promoting creep feed didn't use to like it when I'd help them 'do the math' on how much i'd actually be making with their 'cheaply put on added weight'
Click to expand...

If you use a bull enough, you'll see a 40 pound variation in BW with any bull. Data from the MARC in Nebraska showed that several years back.

I think the important things to remember in selecting a bull to use on heifers is 1) You've got a lot invested in her so the most important thing is to get her calved easy so she'll rebreed early and get her through the initial calf rearing experience with as little stress as possible. Don't worry about the weaning weights (don't completely ignore them either) because they're not likely to be as heavy as the cows anyway. 2) Because weaning weights are lighter, heifer calves out of heifers are not as fleshy and should make better replacements so using the right bull to make females is important if you are keeping females. 3) The bull has to fit your system and goals whether he is used on heifers or cows. I think that is one reason for the different ideas on what a heifer bull is. It depends on the ranch.
 
Faster horses said:
Many think that heavy bw problems can be solved by using a light
bw bull. NOT SO! BW is more heritable from the cow than from the bull.
Once you get big birthweights in your cow herd, it takes a long time to
eliminate it. And it can pop back up anytime.

We did not want to assist anything. Our night calver, who worked for us for 10 years,
says he can count on one hand the heifers he had to help or
the calving problems he had while working here. That's just the way we like it.
I am totally with NR in his assestment.
Our weaning weights did not suffer
because of not having heavy bw calves.
Sure, we didn't sell 700 lb. calves in the fall...nor was that ever our goal.
600+ pound calves worked for us. We started calving March 25
and tried to get the calves off the cows by Oct. 10th by selling
to a country order buyer. Most of the time, that worked.

It has been mentioned here about calves that get up and go by themselves--
that's been really important to us as well. An old friend
had a theory that the "big, dumb calves" were that way because they
suffered lack of oxygen in the birth canal because of taking too long
to be born. I think he had something there.
Click to expand...

So with that said are you saying you can take a light birthweight cow bred to a heavy birthweight bull and reduce bw on the calf more efficiently and consistently??
 
I never thought of that, but I guess I would have to answer yes.

With that being said, I would like to remind you that when you
cross genetics that aren't similar; you get one offspring like the
sire, one like the dam and one in the middle. Mostly what worked for
us was staying in the middle of the road and breeding LIKE to LIKE.
We don't care much for surprises. Our calving difficulties were nil
after we learned a few things. The worst thing we ever did was breed
Black Angus bulls to Hereford heifers. We had C-sections out of that
deal. That was back in the 60's when EPD's, etc. hadn't come of
age yet. The hybird vigor kicked in on the birthweights.

As for the difference in bw using the same bull, a heifer will tend to have
a ten-lb. lighter bw than cows. Our ABS rep told us that once and I
paid attention. He was very accurate.
 

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