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Heifer bulls...and 1 heifer (pics)

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Faster horses

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We got our heifer bulls a week or so ago. These are Wye bred; one is
a 21X like I wanted so badly and the other is a 103D. Thought I'd
put the pictures up for a little conversation. Need to make a call to the breeder as the 21X isn't travelling quite right. He was a bit off when he unloaded them and he said to keep an eye on him and let him know.
The picture of the heifer is just one of our 2-year old first calf heifers.

IMG_0443.jpg



This is of the 103D bull;Dam is a PBC707 F0203 and a Shoshone Vantage JB 23 cow. I love the 707's and Vantage cattle. I think this
might be quite a bull. We will see.

IMG_0440.jpg


This is the 21X. He wants to stand with his hind legs kind of tucked
under himself. I noticed that in every picture I took. I think he must
have gotten hurt.

19c76cbe.jpg


A 2004 heifer.

IMG_0439.jpg


The horse pasture. I don't know if you can see the horses or not...

be80b52a.jpg


One more shot of the 103D bull. This bull was born April 24, 2005.
 
FH,

Youd have to mighty blind not too see those horses in that pasture :wink:

I like the picture of the first bull but the second bull has some problems just by looking at the picture. Looks like he may have gotten hurt by the way he is standing. Did you check him out before you bought him? He may be one of those bulls that has structural problems.

Thats a nice looking hiefer you got there. You should be proud!!
 
No, we bought him sight unseen. But the breeder will stand behind him. We just need to let him know. What are the structure problems you are
seeing? Mr. FH says he is sickle hocked, but I wouldn't think that
would cause him to travel funny. If you go back and read what I posted,
I mentioned he may have gotten hurt. If so, he got hurt before
arriving here.

I put the pictures up on the site for conversation. So let's have it.
What structure problems do you see? I wanted a 21X in the
worse way and thought I was lucky to find this one. He is out
of an Ambush X Sitz Traveler 9998 cow.

Bloodlines aren't much if the structure is damaging.

Thanks for the comment on the heifer. We have more just like her.
Our niche market is raising replacement heifers for sale.
 
FH,

I would have to agree with Mr FH. And I do think this would cause him to travel funny. Hard to tell from looking at the picture though. It will also affect his breeding ability. If you plan on turning him out with a few hiefers I would definately watch so you dont end up with a bunch open. I really like the first bull in the last picture youve got of him. Real good choice!!
 
The 103D bull is a bit wasty under the neck.

But there is no perfect bull, right? :wink:

I do like him A LOT. That's suprising because I was so wanting
a 21X.

Can 1 yearling bull service 30 heifers? I wanted to put those two
bulls in one pasture with 30 heifers. The 21X did jump up on one
of the other bulls, so I know he will at least TRY. They both seem to
have high libido.
 
I usually put a yearling in with around 15 hd. Try not to over work them the first year. Just watch that second bull of yours. As a purebred angus breeder I would be on the phone to the fella that you bought him from.
 
I called him and he was outside. He'll do what it takes for us to be
happy. He talks alot about proper structure so I wonder if something
didn't happen to this bull. Like I say, he mentioned it himself when they
came off the trailer.

We figure a yearling bull to 15 head too. Just about everyone tells us
we don't need that much bull power, but we only leave the bulls in
for 30 days. Last year we had 100% breed up. Oops, I forgot. We
did A1 them and then turned one bull in.

Just got off the phone with the breeder and he is going to bring us
a bull he was keeping for himself. It is a 21X out of an F0203 cow.
He was very nice about it so all is well that ends well. We can put the
other yearling bull out by himself for a day or two until we get the
other bull.

Thanks for your help, MR.
 
FH-Inasmuch as you are going to get a replacement, I won't post what my thoughts are on 21X. But, check out the next bull you receive from the breeder - that he doesn't manifest the same symptoms as 21X did. Check him out carefully before the truck leaves your ranch.

DOC HARRIS
 
You mean 21X himself, or this bull?

It's okay, Doc Harris. I'm a big girl, I can take it.
I tell others my thoughts on bulls. So tell me yours.

There's not a better way to learn something than to hear
it, remember it and compare it to what you see.
 
I'd say that bull has an achy back from the way he's standing-a yearling bull had better be able to breed 30 heifers without breaking a sweat lol. I like that better bull-don't worry bout that neck hide I hate tight hided cattle a little leather usually means some doing ability.
 
Sounds to me like if you are worried about the bull, you should have a vet look at him. I think you should beware of the way pictures just take a snapshot in time, and not always represent how an animal really looks. I have taken pictures of animals and been amazed at how un-simular they look compared to real life. I think a video is more realistic than a picture.

JMO. And it could be wrong. :wink:
 
Faster horses said:
I called him and he was outside. He'll do what it takes for us to be
happy. He talks alot about proper structure so I wonder if something
didn't happen to this bull. Like I say, he mentioned it himself when they
came off the trailer.

We figure a yearling bull to 15 head too. Just about everyone tells us
we don't need that much bull power, but we only leave the bulls in
for 30 days. Last year we had 100% breed up. Oops, I forgot. We
did A1 them and then turned one bull in.

Just got off the phone with the breeder and he is going to bring us
a bull he was keeping for himself. It is a 21X out of an F0203 cow.
He was very nice about it so all is well that ends well. We can put the
other yearling bull out by himself for a day or two until we get the
other bull.

Thanks for your help, MR.
Click to expand...

Glad everything went well FH, Anyone including us that raise PB stock we need to look after the customer. I always look after the buyer . Without happy customers you dont have a customer base.
 
Faster horses said:
You mean 21X himself, or this bull?

It's okay, Doc Harris. I'm a big girl, I can take it.
I tell others my thoughts on bulls. So tell me yours.

There's not a better way to learn something than to hear
it, remember it and compare it to what you see.
Click to expand...
FH - You misunderstood my meaning. I was just not going to waste board space if your bull was not going to be in your possession. But here is what I meant. 21X appears to be Cow Hocked (Hocks close together) AND Sickle Hocked (Feet 'camped under' his body). He is also Splay-footed (Hind feet pointing 'outward' at about a 40 degree angle). This puts a heavy strain on his rear spine and his stifle joints during mating, usually reducing his effectiveness as a breeder, and sometimes causing a condition known as being "stifled", which prohibits his capability of breeding cows. In human terms, it destroys his "knees". It also shortens his breeding life, even if he is not completely stifled. It is an inherited characteristic, which is why I cautioned you to be very observant in judging and analysing his sibling(s).

DOC HARRIS
 
Any animal that makes its living traveling, should be first judged from the ground up. Just my thoughts.
 
WOW, Doc Harris. That was something I had not heard and did not
know. Thanks for the explanation. I certainly don't want to get
that in our cows. I do remember years back taking a sickle-hocked
bull back to the breeder.

I wish you had spoken up earlier when we were disucssing bulls
and I talked about wanting a 21X. Perhaps you missed that discussion.
Some breeders that I think dearly of are using him and they think
the heifer replacements are second to none. Now I wonder if they
have checked out their hind legs?

Amazing that I wouldn't buy a crooked legged horse... :???:
 
AHA so he does have an achy back lol. Bulls that aren't real good on their feet and legs tend to get more broken penis's also-they aren't athletic enough to 'wham,bam ty maam' before another bull hits them. Foreplay has no place in a multibull pasture.
 
I like the composition of those bulls, FH.

In a literature review for my MS on visual appraisal, I found several papers concerning stifling.

They always contended that stifling was a greater threat from post legs, rather than sickle hocks. Sickle hocks actually are the lessor of the two evils, they provide more cushion, rather than less. per Ray Woodward, Ft. Keogh and ABS, Charolais Banner, 1968. :shock: (Had my thesis out while writing my dissertation, so had it right in front of me :D )

I agree with that, from my experience.


If we study natural populations while horseback, we tend to observe more of the animals that are cow hocked, rather than the alternative. I don't think it's a bad thing, I think we humans think it's a bad thing. Certainly, extremes are bad, but I'll take one with more cushion over less if I have to vary from ideal. Ask a horseman about his preference, if he has to move away from "ideal".

I was trained to do GTS evaulations for my MS, this bull is NOT sickle hocked. He puts his feet under himself, but he is not sickle hocked. FH, another picture would help, as this one shows him facing downhill. He needs to brace himself in that position, so will naturally put his back feet farther under himself, and will hock in.


With that said, the 21X son does look "off", belly ache, sore back like DOC said, I don't know. Maybe he was ridden by other bulls, and popped something in his back. Who knows? I've only seen one picture of 21X, probably the same one everybody else has. It looks OK to me, just looks like he has planted his back feet and is looking in the opposite direction as his feet are pointed, so he looks stretched out.

FWIW, FH, I like both of them more than the hip I see on the other bull in the 21X son's photo.


Get them out on grass, and see if you still see it.

But, now, we know you will!! Such is the way our minds work. :wink:
If you can, replace him, then you won't have to question yourself everytime you see him for 4 years.

On the other hand, buy earlier and in person next year. :wink: Sorry for that bit of butt-chewing FH.

Late buyers and sight unseen are a real headache for purebred breeders. I think some of the "big boys" that claim high success with marketing sight unseen bulls are selling to folks that either don't know what a good one looks like, or are buying the name only. Some really are successful, if they have developed a long term relationship with the breeder, so the breeder really knows what will work. Volume buyers are a lot easier to please.

On the other hand, some folks are picky enough that they need to pick the bulls themselves. I fall into that category.


Nice bulls, FH.

I'll have my half-sib double granddad 707's on the ground in only 2 more years, then we can deal! Is 26 times to 707 enough for you? Or will it be the double granddad part that gets you? LOL


Have a good day.


Badlands
 
I have to disagree about the sight unseen. Some guys might pawn off the poorer bulls, but if a bull isn't fit to travel he shouldn't leave the pen in the first place. A trailer ride can lame a bull if something wierd happens, he slips just the wrong way..it is rare but happens.

This year about 1/2 my bulls have been sold sight unseen. The fellows that came in person bought the cheap end, the guys that bought sight unseen are getting the better bulls.

I have a bull that pulled up slightly lame 2 weeks after the folks had come and picked 3 bulls out. He is the best of the three bulls but sure won't be going as he isn't 100% right now. The solution, I am sending a bull I had priced at $3000 to cover the $2000 bull that is lame.

If I am right, the lame bull will make one heck of a 2 year old and I will get more for him next year. If he doesn't it hasn't cost me a customer or a bull that is totally wrecked because of trying to breed with a sore leg.

Doing the right thing never costs you. It always pays one way or another.
 
FH - I have read with interest the post of Badlands relating to your pictured bulls. He states unequivocally that the 21X bull is NOT sickle hocked - and upon closer re-evaluation of your PICTURES, and careful evaluations of Badlands assumptions - I have to recant my original evaluations, and I certainly agree with him. He IS facing downhill, and analysing the pictures again from a BODY MECHANICAL aspect and mentally 'dropping a plumb bob' from his pin bones, gravitationally, and projecting the bull standing on level ground, the term "sickle hocked" is imprecise. HOWEVER - we are rendering absolute decisions from rather casual pictures, and in previous posts it has been determined that pictures are NOT the most effective method to ascertain the physical attributes or deficiencies of livestock.

That said, I still concur with Badland's assertion that 21X is not sickle hocked. BUT - he is cow hocked - exacerbating splay-footedness - both rear feet AND front feet - whether he is standing facing downhill, uphill, or on level ground. That alone is a blemish or defect, which is not desirable in Beef breeding, and which should be avoided in producing progeny. It also is a heritable trait. But - what the hey! Nothing is perfect, and we have to work with what we have available!

DOC HARRIS
 

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