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Heifer bulls...and 1 heifer (pics)

I find this discusion VERY INTERESTING. So...here are a couple more
photos of the same bull. Now what do you think?

I have no reason to doubt the breeder. He said the bull was fine when
he loaded him up to bring him here. He did mention it himself when he
stepped off the trailer that he wasn't travelling quite right. He mentioned it so we didn't have to. We spoke for these bulls awhile back. Everything is going to turn out fine because now we are getting another 103D. I prefer
to use at least half brothers if possible. The reason the first two weren't is because he didn't have another 21X for sale and I was dead set on one of them.

The third bull in the earlier photos that Badlands mentioned is a bull that got hurt and he is drawn up pretty bad from that. But that one was our fault. We had him right next to the other bulls for several days and everything was fine. We thought we could pen them all together. WRONG!! I heard them bellering that night and the next morning that young bull was injured. He hasn't gotten any better either.
It has been so long since we have had an injured bull, I guess we got
kind of lackidasical about it. We'll remember now again for awhile. I hope
that bull gets okay eventually. He was a real nice looking bull.

Anyhow, here are two other pictures of the 21X son to take a gander at:

IMG_0450.jpg



IMG_0451.jpg


There are so many things I like about him, it's a shame he has a problem.

And you are right, Badlands, most likely every time I would see him I would notice his stance.

I've learned that with horses. If there is something you dislike
before you buy him, you will dislike it a lot more as time goes on.
A friend of ours always liked a nice head on a horse. Of course he heard a lot that, "You can't ride the head."

His reply was, "yes, but that's the first thing I see when
I got to catch him everyday."
:wink: .
 
Faster horses said:
I find this discusion VERY INTERESTING. So...here are a couple more
photos of the same bull. Now what do you think?

I have no reason to doubt the breeder. He said the bull was fine when
he loaded him up to bring him here. He did mention it himself when he
stepped off the trailer that he wasn't travelling quite right. He mentioned it so we didn't have to. We spoke for these bulls awhile back. Everything is going to turn out fine because now we are getting another 103D. I prefer
to use at least half brothers if possible. The reason the first two weren't is because he didn't have another 21X for sale and I was dead set on one of them.

The third bull in the earlier photos that Badlands mentioned is a bull that got hurt and he is drawn up pretty bad from that. But that one was our fault. We had him right next to the other bulls for several days and everything was fine. We thought we could pen them all together. WRONG!! I heard them bellering that night and the next morning that young bull was injured. He hasn't gotten any better either.
It has been so long since we have had an injured bull, I guess we got
kind of lackidasical about it. We'll remember now again for awhile. I hope
that bull gets okay eventually. He was a real nice looking bull.

Anyhow, here are two other pictures of the 21X son to take a gander at:

IMG_0450.jpg



IMG_0451.jpg


There are so many things I like about him, it's a shame he has a problem.

And you are right, Badlands, most likely every time I would see him I would notice his stance.

I've learned that with horses. If there is something you dislike
before you buy him, you will dislike it a lot more as time goes on.
A friend of ours always liked a nice head on a horse. Of course he heard a lot that, "You can't ride the head."

His reply was, "yes, but that's the first thing I see when
I got to catch him everyday."
:wink: .
Click to expand...
FH- If I had not read the previous posts on this 21 X bull, and just now saw these pictures, I would say, "He is sickle hocked!" He is black, he is alone in the barnyard, and he is sickel hocked! But what do I know????"

Doc Harris
 
In looking through a bunch of old Association journals over time to research some bullls, there are plenty like this one.

They are "camped under". At least that's what we called it.

Some of the WYE bulls were that way. Some went the opposite way too, and were real straight.

If you ever get the chance to see some of the late 1800's, early 1900's Hereford and Angus bulls, many of them looked like this.

Later on they went the other way, and were stretched out.

I think that most of this is just banter over cosmetics with no real value, other than everyone's own opinion. If it bothers you, and interferes with your peace of mind, and causes you to re-think the issue everytime you seem him, and kick yourself, then he isn't worth the headache.

Hopefully, green grass and sunshine will cure the injury to the other bull, FH.

Structure defects are hard to get a handle on, in terms of heritability. Foot and leg structure is lowly heritable, but it sure seems like some of them really stamp their offspring, which suggests that it isn't lowly heritable.

The way I approach it is to cull the cows with the defects(or NOT save heifers from them, eventually getting rid of them), and try not to buy bulls with them. It's either lowly heritable enough that I can't change it by selection within the breed, so I must cull them, or it's highly heritable enough within a line that I don't want to bring it into my herd.

Make sense? It might not, as it is kind of a difficult concept to grasp at first, until you see you own example. Within a population, it is lowly heritable, but within a line it can really be passed on readily.

Take disposition, think about some of the bulls we know are bad disposition. Or breeds we think of as bad disposition. On the whole, it is hard to change them with selection, so it's lowly heritable, but within given bloodlines it is about as sure as the rising sun you will have troubles, so it's highly heritable within that line. Bloodline specific is how I say it. In Salers this was very true. There are some great ones, then some nasty bad ones.

So then, the "cure", if there is one, is to just avoid the issue. Don't bring in questionable animals.

Right on FH. My friend here worked on a dairy where he grew up in CO. The old guy there paid more attention to the type scores as he did the milk STA's (Dairy EPD). His rational was that if he had to get up at 4:00 every morning to look at them, he was dang sure going to like they way they looked. Rings more true with a horse, or dog. Something we attach more sentiment to.

Here's a little tidbit I found for my MS research, it might apply here. I'd like to re-run this survey someday, as this was taken by the USDA in 1994, I believe.

Not to hijack the string, but interesting as it applys here.

Factors considered in purchasing or selecting a bull- Factors rating very or extremely important by percent of producers.

Structural soundness/appearance------94.5%
Breed--------------------------------------80.0
Temeprament----------------------------86.3
Price---------------------------------------68.2
Weaning and YEarling weights----------64.1
Reputation of the breeder---------------61.9
Birth WEight-------------------------------59.7
Hip height/frame score------------------58.8
Scortal circumference-------------------57.2
EPD----------------------------------------44.2

I think times have changed. I see a whole bunch of unsound , high ww, high yw, great EPD bulls bought for high prices, that can't walk. Either that, or we don't know what structural soundness is anymore.



Badlands
 
Yeah we all know a certain line of angus cattle whose name starts with 'E' that have a 'tude problem. Alot of Red Angus cattle are homozygous for bad feet-any Red breeder worth his salt will agree with me on this one-there was a certain now bankrupt marketing guru who got some less than desireable bulls used hard across the breed-nothing I hate worse than driving a distance to look at bulls and seeing a hoof trimming table in the yard-I sure hope his wife can cook because once I see that I'm just there for the pie lol. Alot of structural troubles on cattle and horses are caused by management-they are fed so well that they get too heavy for their age-and break down. The conundrum in livestock breeding is that desireable attributes seem to be hard to replicate but any thing bad shines through every time lol.
 
Badlands said:
I think times have changed. I see a whole bunch of unsound , high ww, high yw, great EPD bulls bought for high prices, that can't walk. Either that, or we don't know what structural soundness is anymore.
Click to expand...

I'm with you Badlands. One of the issues we're working around with the Shorthorn animals is lack of EPDs. I've watched some truly great bulls walk out of sales for less than half what they were worth, simply because they didn't have high accuracy EPDs to back them. I've also watched some pencil gutted junk sell for ungodly prices because they had a couple breed high EPDs.

Anyway, sorry for the hijack.

Rod
 
There is nothing better than a high accuracy EPD to use for the actual traits measured.

However as has been mentioned, there is no EPD for structure, temperment (although they are trying) hair coat etc.

Low accuracy EPD's have become the worst curse because they are so common now in some breeds that they need 3-5 years to shake out the crap.

Back to FH's bull, I wouldn't call the bull sickle hocked from the picture. I would say he is uncomfortable for some reason. If he "paddles" as he walks it would indicate some structure problem. If he limps or moves unevenly I would say it is an injury.
 
I have enjoyed this thread immensely. Far as I am concerned there
was no hijacking; and if it was, who cares? Very informative. Thank
you Badlands for posting.

The bull does not 'paddle out'. I really believe he was injured.

Now the other injured bull has a leg that is swelled, so it is
easier to see what is wrong with him.

__________________________________________________________

So much of what we do depends on FAITH, because if someone
wanted to disbelieve any of what I have posted they could easily
think that the TWO INJURED bulls got hurt fighting each other!!!

That is why reputation is so important on both sides;both customer and
provider. I know some people who holler to the breeder about ANYTHING that happens to a bull. We haven't even contacted the seller of the other injured bull because it was our fault.

Thanks everyone, for the great discussion. I hope it doesn't end here.

BTW, both bulls have a super attitude and that great attitude is
one reason why I was after a 21X.
 
OK, good deal , FH.


I agree NR. My grandpa used to break horses, though he was old enough by the time I came along, I didn't get to see him ride. When he was breaking them, a colt was 4 or 5. A horse was used hard until 20 or so.

Now a colt is 2 and is broke down by 10-12 with "regular" use, let alone hard use with no pampering like the old timers did.

Same is true in cattle. I remember our old bulls were 13, maybe 14. Now most are called old at 6.

When an old family friend sold some cows when I was in high school, I caught him with a tear in his eye. Some of his old cows were 19.


Now, there is a point that came out in these last couple posts that needs addressed.

"Every young animal has low accuracy EPD. There are no high accuracy animals for sale through the ring. They only get to high accuracy after siring calves."

Don't buy into the line of folks selling them as high accuracy because they are multigeneration sired by high accuracy bulls. That is not true. Animals must earn their own accuracy. A small part is due to parents having higher accuracy, but only a small part. In breeds just starting out with EPD, it is true that some animals might be sired by parents that are higher accuracy so maybe would have a early accuracy of maybe .20, relative to another animals whose parents re not proven with an early accuracy of .08 or .12, something like that. With breeds with a long-term history of EPD, the beginning accuracies are still less than .30, in most cases, and even an animals with low accuracy parents is going to be over .20 in that same group, so it really doesn't matter. To get over .30 for beginning accuracy, those animals are going to have to be in 100+ head contemporary groups usually. There simply is no such thing as a high accuracy young animal, and coming from a high accuracy sire, or even farther back does basically nothing to boost accuracy on a young animal. If you hear that stuff from the auction podium, or the breeder, just pass right on by.

ABS Global does have EPD for structural traits on some of their breeds. They are printed as STA (standardized trasmitting abilities) since a Dairy geneticist does their evaulation for them. A couple other studs do too, but they have no genetic analysis done on theri animals, they are just averaging them in-house themselves.

Badlands
 
Badlands you might have misunderstood my post.

I know that young animals all have low accuracy epds.

That is my point. Don't buy a young animal with great numbers just because the numbers are great. They will likely drop.

In the pure math of EPDs they have the same chance to climb as they do to drop, but with marketing everyone knows what numbers are desireable and numbers can be "bumped" a bit here and there.

I have actually gone back to visual appraisal and pedigree as the 2 main factors in selection.

If you don't like the looks of an animal, pass over him/her immediately and don't second guess the descision, but don't compare a bull in breeder A's pen to one in breeder B's. They have been managed differently and fed differently.

EPD's were able to be used for those comparisons, but the low accuracy EPD's on young animals are so skewerd they have lost all meaning.

Years past a bull with a .05 acc epd on YW of +80 would hold near that level as he sired calves. Now that bull might drop as far as a +50 by the time he is 4 or 5.
 
Right Jason.

I'm see where you are coming from. Just wanted to throw in that for commercial folks, they don't have the option of high accuracies for natural service sires.

The interim EPD can go either way.

We usually only ever see them go in the "unfavorable" direction.

The reason for that is that if they weren't "favorable" enough to be purchased by a purebred breeder, they go to commercial use.

So, the ones that end up "favorable", are out in commercial use, but never get tested in purebred use to watch them get that way.

I say "favorable" and "unfavorable" to avoid placing a judgement on what is up or down.

Goose and gander sort of a deal. :wink:

Kind of a fun string.


Badlands
 
I think times have changed. I see a whole bunch of unsound , high ww, high yw, great EPD bulls bought for high prices, that can't walk. Either that, or we don't know what structural soundness is anymore.
Click to expand...
Badlands - I agree with you regarding CURRENT structural soundness parameters! I have been propounding this same hypothisis - along with 'TOO low BW associated with TOO high Milk and a disparity between %IMF and uREA for four or five years now. It is confusing to say the least, and disastrous in the long run, particularly to comparatively new breeders, to be attempting to function in an invironment of complex and indistinct standards or precepts. One so-called expert professes one set of EPD standards and three months later another "tangental" concept 'skewers' itself across the beef breeding interface as a 'whole new idea' of potential perfection in the Beef Cattle World.

It is almost enough to make one paranoid! It must be time for us to return to common sense BASICS and concentrate on the LOGIC of long term Beef Cattle Breeding!

MODERATION IN EVERYTHING!

DOC HARRIS
 

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