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Hey Rod!

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Did you get those carcass specs yet?

Have you decided what the Canadian carcass target is?

Are you just buying time hoping that everyone forgot what you stated about "packers driving the process towards larger carcasses" and XL's carcass spec target?

Either you should back your position with supporting facts or admit that you didn't know what you were talking about AGAIN.

Like that will happen at this site.................ZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzz!

Perhaps a new forum name should be "rancherscheaptalk".


~SH~
 
In addition to his cattle, Gerald also grain farms. He'll get me the numbers when HE has the time, and I'm not about to irritate the man for an internet forum. I also help my father grain farm. We've been just a little busy to worry about proving you wrong again so you can just forget you were wrong 2 minutes later.

As an aside, since you seem to have the time, why don't you answer my question. Name ONE average cut of beef thats typically available in stores that REQUIRES an 800 lb carcass? Notice I say average cut, because thats where consumer demand lay, not in huge 24 oz steaks.

Rod
 
Rod: "We've been just a little busy to worry about proving you wrong again so you can just forget you were wrong 2 minutes later."

Hahaha!

Isn't it funny how the "make it up as you go" crowd always has the time to tell you how they don't have time to back their claims? LOL!

Why do you need to get the carcass data from Gerald? Why not just call the plant that Gerald sells to and ask them for their carcass target specs?


Rod: "Name ONE average cut of beef thats typically available in stores that REQUIRES an 800 lb carcass? Notice I say average cut, because thats where consumer demand lay, not in huge 24 oz steaks."

Your question is irrelevant because "stores" is where only 1/2 of the beef is sold. Most people that want to eat a good steak go to a steakhouse.

As Jason already pointed out to you, retail beef outlets can trim down to a smaller size steak but none of them can glue them together to make a bigger sized portion.

PM BEEF group shaped their carcass specs ENTIRELY around consumer demand and those target specs ended up at an 800 lb. carcass with a 14" ribeye. I suppose you know more than they do too huh?

Bring the carcass grids Rod and quit diverting.

It takes less time to make the call than it does to post to tell us how you don't have time to make the call.



~SH~
 
SH, I honestly don't know why anyone takes the time to post a response to you. For me, it is kind of fun playing with an idiot such as yourself, especially when you make it humorous.

As Rod said, your memory is often only 2 minutes or less.

You are the kind of person that is at times fun to be around, but at other times your clown act is a little old.

Do you have any more tantrum demands at the moment? Do you need some more attention? I told you before that you might want to get a girlfriend. It might fill a lot of your needs that you asked to be filled here.
 
Who cares what you think Conman, you are the biggest phony on this site. It's a rare day when you post without lying about something. If it isn't fly eggs in your packaged pork loins it's that Walmart is selling "USDA SELECT" as "USDA CHOICE".

Your meaningless little statements only have meaning to your little packer blaming support group. Not to anyone with any level of intelligence.

"PRICES CAN'T GO UP UNLESS THE SUPPLIES COME DOWN".

Yup, real wizardry there Conman! Go drum up another conspiracy theory to perpetuate.


~SH~
 
~SH~ said:
Who cares what you think Conman, you are the biggest phony on this site. It's a rare day when you post without lying about something. If it isn't fly eggs in your packaged pork loins it's that Walmart is selling "USDA SELECT" as "USDA CHOICE".

Your meaningless little statements only have meaning to your little packer blaming support group. Not to anyone with any level of intelligence.

"PRICES CAN'T GO UP UNLESS THE SUPPLIES COME DOWN".

Yup, real wizardry there Conman! Go drum up another conspiracy theory to perpetuate.


~SH~

Perhaps you would like to do a poll on it to find out, SH.

Nothing I have said about the pork loins and fly eggs was a lie, and neither was the information I shared about Walmart. For you to keep saying it was is just your little 5 year old game.

Your level of understanding about economics and supply and demand is so elementary that it doesn't even deserve comment. You don't even understand the concept of supply/demand enough to know the meaning of the quote of mine you continually bring up. It is a measure of your stupidity every time you post it.

I think the only conspiracy I see was when God was passing out logic or the knowledge between right and wrong when He came to you. For that I am truely sorry.
 
Keep telling yourself that Conman. Keep telling yourself about the fly eggs. Your proof of that is your own stupidity. Keep telling yourself about Walmart selling "USDA SELECT" as "USDA CHOICE". Your proof of that was "WELL SOME LADY AT WALMART TOLD ME........"

What a flaming idiot!


~SH~
 
~SH~ said:
Keep telling yourself that Conman. Keep telling yourself about the fly eggs. Your proof of that is your own stupidity. Keep telling yourself about Walmart selling "USDA SELECT" as "USDA CHOICE". Your proof of that was "WELL SOME LADY AT WALMART TOLD ME........"

What a flaming idiot!


~SH~

This is exactly what I am talking about, SH. For about the third time, there was no lady at walmart that told me anything. The lady that I spoke to was on the other end of Tyson's toll free number from the bottom of the package.

You should really get your facts straight before you make such baseless allegations as you have above. It really brings more evidence to my earlier assertion on the "conspiracy" regarding your intelligence.

"What a flaming idiot!"
 
~SH~ said:
Why do you need to get the carcass data from Gerald? Why not just call the plant that Gerald sells to and ask them for their carcass target specs?

Do they have carcass specs from 15 years ago? No they don't. Many of the plants that were around 15 years ago have been bought out. Engage brain for a moment. You wanted proof that targets have been on the rise for the last 15 years, and I plan to give that to you. Of course your plan that it be Tyson or Cargill is just a way to weasel out of it, because you very well know that Tyson wasn't involved in the beef trade 15 years ago, and neither was Cargill (at least that I recall. I may be wrong on the Cargill one). So you'll get a cross-section of plants within Saskatchewan and Alberta.

~SH~ said:
As Jason already pointed out to you, retail beef outlets can trim down to a smaller size steak but none of them can glue them together to make a bigger sized portion.

And as many chefs will tell you, cutting INTO a cut to make it smaller ruins the cut. The packers simply do it to save processing. Why don't you ask a few real chefs and few other indepedents who are selling custom cuts. Why is that the majority of those guys all shoot for 650 lb carcass weights?

~SH~ said:
It takes less time to make the call than it does to post to tell us how you don't have time to make the call.

Gerald has a family to feed. I won't bother him until he's done his seeding. He knows what I want, and he won't forget.

Rod
 
Rod,

AGAIN...........

Why do you need to get the carcass data from Gerald? Why not just call the plant that Gerald sells to and ask them for their carcass target specs?

You diverted this question AGAIN!

Please answer the question.


Rod: "Do they have carcass specs from 15 years ago? No they don't. Many of the plants that were around 15 years ago have been bought out. Engage brain for a moment."

So if you can't get carcass specs from 15 years ago, how could you possibly know that ...........

Rod: "Carcass targets have moved from 550 lbs to 750 lbs in the last 15 years. Who sets those targets? Packers. How is that NOT leading us to heavier carcasses?"

or:

Rod: "Carcass weights have been on the rise steadily for the last 15 years, keeping pace with the packer targets. 15 years ago, carcass target was what, 550 lbs?"

Rod, what becomes painfully obvious here is that you are shooting from the hip and don't know what you are talking about. That's why your stories keep changing. Don't try this "taken out of context" bullsh*t with me either, I used your exact quotes so you can't spin out of it.


Rod: "You wanted proof that targets have been on the rise for the last 15 years, and I plan to give that to you."

Still waiting.............


Rod: "Of course your plan that it be Tyson or Cargill is just a way to weasel out of it, because you very well know that Tyson wasn't involved in the beef trade 15 years ago, and neither was Cargill (at least that I recall. I may be wrong on the Cargill one). So you'll get a cross-section of plants within Saskatchewan and Alberta."

Again, you contradict yourself. In order for you to make your claim about carcass targets 15 years ago, and your claim that packers are responsible for larger carcasses, you would have to know what ibp and Excel's grids were 15 years ago or was your comments specific to just the smaller packing plants in Canada? If your comments were specific to just the smaller packing plants in Canada, that would not be a fair representation of your claim regarding packing plants in general.

You've painted yourself into a corner with statements you couldn't back Rod.


Rod: "And as many chefs will tell you, cutting INTO a cut to make it smaller ruins the cut. The packers simply do it to save processing. Why don't you ask a few real chefs and few other indepedents who are selling custom cuts. Why is that the majority of those guys all shoot for 650 lb carcass weights?"

If the majority of those guys are shooting for 650 lb. carcass weights then that is what they would pay the most for. If that is what they would pay the most for, the carcass specs would support that. THEY DON'T!


SH (previous): "It takes less time to make the call than it does to post to tell us how you don't have time to make the call."

Rod (in response): "Gerald has a family to feed. I won't bother him until he's done his seeding. He knows what I want, and he won't forget."

I wasn't talking about a phone call to Gerald, I was talking about a phone call to the packing plants to see what the the carcass specs were 15 years ago and what they are currently to back your claims.

You are wrong, and gathering the data would prove you wrong so you'll continue to divert the issue.


In the name of "fairness", I am going to remind you of what you previously stated so there is no surprises:


Rod: "Cattle producers started using the bigger framed animals in order to get to the larger carcasses."

Rod: "Just to verify, I called the neighbor whose been feeding out animals for over 40 years. The plant he shipped to was XL Foods, and the year was 1990. 550 lbs was the target, 500 was the low weight cutoff (oh oh, he DOES know what that is) and 625 was high end. Interesting how the packer allowed more room for the higher weights, huh? When hes got the time this week, he's going to dig into his old records and find out when the targets increased as there have been at least three increases in the last 15 years that he can recall. He'll also verify the above information, as he was going by memory."

Keep in mind that XL Foods, ONE PACKER, is not representative of carcass targets and ranges IN CANADA, let alone carcass targets and ranges IN GENERAL.


Rod: "I'll verify it, but even at 550 lbs at the low end cutoff, its a far cry away from the current 700 lb cutoff."


Rod: "Apparently your grids are considerably different than ours , because Gerald took hits at 800 lbs this year, and four years ago when I shipped to Moose Jaw, I took hits on 650 weight carcasses. Don't argue the Canadian market when you apparently don't know anything about it. I'll also call down to Moose Jaw and get their grid tomorrow."

What did you find out when you called to Moose Jaw?


In summary,

First XL wanted a 550 lb. carcass, then you took a hit for a 650 lb. carcass 4 years ago, then Gerald took hits for 800 lbs this year and the current cutoff is 700 lbs. That's supposed to be your proof that the packers are encouraging larger carcasses????

Rod, do you really want to continue this debate?

Even if your statements were specific to Canadian carcass specs, WHICH YOU DID NOT SPECIFY but I'll give you that, you still can't back your claim.

Are you ready to admit that you couldn't back your initial claim and you contradicted yourself in your effort to cover your tracks?

Probably not huh? LOL!


~SH~
 
~SH~ said:
Rod: "Do they have carcass specs from 15 years ago? No they don't. Many of the plants that were around 15 years ago have been bought out. Engage brain for a moment."

So if you can't get carcass specs from 15 years ago, how could you possibly know that ...........

Huh? What kind of twist are trying to put on things here SH? If the plant is no longer owned by the same company or is not in existence, then how would I be able to get the grids? I'm going by what people who sold 15 years ago are saying. Come on SH, for someone who accuses people of twisting things, you sure do alot of it.

~SH~ said:
Still waiting.............

Apparently you have no idea about grain production, nor how long it takes to seed. Do you realize that it takes longer than 1 day to seed 2 or 3000 acres? Do you? As I said before, SH, Gerald has a family, he has a cross-section of grids and fat pricing for the last 30 years. It only makes sense to gather the data from one source, especially since some of the other sources aren't available.

~SH~ said:
Again, you contradict yourself. In order for you to make your claim about carcass targets 15 years ago, and your claim that packers are responsible for larger carcasses, you would have to know what ibp and Excel's grids were 15 years ago or was your comments specific to just the smaller packing plants in Canada?

How did I contradict myself? You asked for grids from 15 years ago, yet then specified Tyson. Its just another way for you to weasel out of things.

What you'll get is a cross-section of packers, including XL. I don't know is IBP was even operating in Canada 15 years ago. And what difference does it make? Smaller packers aren't going to have significantly different grids.

~SH~ said:
I wasn't talking about a phone call to Gerald, I was talking about a phone call to the packing plants to see what the the carcass specs were 15 years ago and what they are currently to back your claims.

You really need to work on your reading comprehension SH. What part of 'no longer owned by same company' or 'no longer in business' do you not understand? Therefore, the data is not available with a simple phone call. Engage brain SH, you're getting tiresome.

~SH~ said:
Keep in mind that XL Foods, ONE PACKER, is not representative of carcass targets and ranges IN CANADA, let alone carcass targets and ranges IN GENERAL.

Someone who has a better memory than me can chime in here, but I'm pretty sure that XL was the largest meat processor in Canada 15 years ago. You mean that the company who processes the most beef in a country isn't going to be indicative? :roll:

~SH~ said:
Even if your statements were specific to Canadian carcass specs, WHICH YOU DID NOT SPECIFY but I'll give you that, you still can't back your claim.

You always use that 'WHICH YOU DID NOT SPECIFY' line to weasel out of things. I am CANADIAN. While I realize you have limited capacity, I thought you'd at least have enough on the ball to remember that.

Now, when I have the data put together, I'll present it for you. Until that time, you might as well hush up, because your mindless drivel isn't worth responding to.

By the way, you still haven't bothered answering my question. Name ONE average cut that requires an 800 lb carcass. Or is it that you don't actually know? Oh wait, THERE ISN'T ONE!

Rod
 
Rod: "If the plant is no longer owned by the same company or is not in existence, then how would I be able to get the grids? I'm going by what people who sold 15 years ago are saying. Come on SH, for someone who accuses people of twisting things, you sure do alot of it."

As this site has proven, people say a lot of things that they can't prove.


Rod: "Apparently you have no idea about grain production, nor how long it takes to seed. Do you realize that it takes longer than 1 day to seed 2 or 3000 acres? Do you? As I said before, SH, Gerald has a family, he has a cross-section of grids and fat pricing for the last 30 years. It only makes sense to gather the data from one source, especially since some of the other sources aren't available."

Then why did you say...........

Rod: " When hes got the time this week, he's going to dig into his old records and find out when the targets increased as there have been at least three increases in the last 15 years that he can recall. He'll also verify the above information, as he was going by memory."

I think you already know you can't back your claims so you're trying to weasel out of it.


Rod: "How did I contradict myself? You asked for grids from 15 years ago, yet then specified Tyson. Its just another way for you to weasel out of things."

The weaseling is obvious. When I said Tyson, I was talking about ibp before Tyson as well as Tyson. Same company.

I asked you to prove two claims:

1. That carcass targets have moved from 550 to 750 lbs in the last 15 years.

2. That packers are responsible for these larger carcasses.

You will back neither claim with supporting facts.


Rod: "What you'll get is a cross-section of packers, including XL. I don't know is IBP was even operating in Canada 15 years ago. And what difference does it make? Smaller packers aren't going to have significantly different grids."

Since the majority of Canadian fat cattle are slaughtered by Excel and ibp/Tyson, you need to get their carcass spec and all that is required is a phone call.

In order for you to make your "GENERALIZING" claims about packers, why would you exclude the two largest packers?

If you were going to be specific to a few small packers some of which are not even in business anymore, you should have specified when you made your claims instead of dancing now.

If "smaller packers are not going to have significantly different grids", then smaller packers would be just as responsible for shaping the carcass targets as the larger packers.


Rod: "What part of 'no longer owned by same company' or 'no longer in business' do you not understand? Therefore, the data is not available with a simple phone call."

In order for you to make your claim regarding the last 15 years, you have to know what current carcass specs are as well as carcass specs from 15 years ago. If you call Tyson and Excel, you can get the current carcass specs. You just got done saying that "smaller packers are not going to have significantly different grids" and you also said that Gerald has a cross section of grids and fat pricing for the last 30 years. Put it all together and you should have no problem backing your claims.

Time will tell but I'm not going to hold my breath.

I'll state right now for the record that you will not be able to back your claim.


Rod: "Someone who has a better memory than me can chime in here, but I'm pretty sure that XL was the largest meat processor in Canada 15 years ago. You mean that the company who processes the most beef in a country isn't going to be indicative?"

Of grid specs then? YES
Of grid specs now? NO

You have to have data from both ends to support your claims.

I'd be amazed if many cattle were sold on "grid pricing" 15 years ago.


Rod: "Name ONE average cut that requires an 800 lb carcass."

Percentage wise, you will have more larger ribeyes ranging from 15" to 16" with larger carcasses. PM BEEF proved that. Along with that particular cut, you get more total red meat yield from an 800 lb. carcass. When carcasses get too big, they start dragging on the processing plant floor due to standard hook heigths.

You won't be able to back your claims Rod!


~SH~
 
~SH~ said:
Rod: "Name ONE average cut that requires an 800 lb carcass."

Percentage wise, you will have more larger ribeyes ranging from 15" to 16" with larger carcasses. PM BEEF proved that. Along with that particular cut, you get more total red meat yield from an 800 lb. carcass. When carcasses get too big, they start dragging on the processing plant floor due to standard hook heigths.

And again: Name one average cut available in stores or restaurants that requires an 800 lb carcass. How many people do you know that buy 15 inch ribeye steaks? The only thing the larger carcass does is make it easier for the packer to cut more efficiently. No other reason and you know it, thats why you refuse to answer my question.

Rod
 
Rod: "And again: Name one average cut available in stores or restaurants that requires an 800 lb carcass."

Percentage wise, you will have more larger ribeyes ranging from 15" to 16" with larger carcasses. PM BEEF proved that. Along with that particular cut, you get more total red meat yield from an 800 lb. carcass. When carcasses get too big, they start dragging on the processing plant floor due to standard hook heigths.

How many more times do you want me to answer the same question?


Rod: "How many people do you know that buy 15 inch ribeye steaks?"

If 15" ribeye steaks were not in demand, Packers wouldn't be paying premiums for them. Does that logic escape you as well?


Rod: "The only thing the larger carcass does is make it easier for the packer to cut more efficiently."

Another of your many empty assumptions.


Rod: "No other reason and you know it, thats why you refuse to answer my question."

I answered your question. If consumers were not demanding larger ribeyes, packers would not be paying for it.

The issue here is RED MEAT YIELD, not a particular cut but, like most packer blamers, you are simply too ignorant to understand the retail beef industry.


Come up with those carcass specs yet? Didn't think so! Why would you prove yourself wrong?



~SH~
 
~SH~ said:
Rod: "How many people do you know that buy 15 inch ribeye steaks?"

If 15" ribeye steaks were not in demand, Packers wouldn't be paying premiums for them. Does that logic escape you as well?

Do you ever go to a grocery store or restaurant? 15" ribeyes are not in demand. All the larger ribeye does is allow the packer to cut into it, ruining the quality, all in the name of cutting efficiency.

Rod
 
Mad Max,

I take it that was the most intelligent thing you had to say?


How many times do I have to tell you Rod, it's not the size of the cut itself, it's the RED MEAT YIELD from a single carcass. If 15" ribeyes were not in demand, WHY ARE THEY PAYING PREMIUMS FOR THEM ON THE GRID??

Answer that simple question Rod.

Once again, the obvious is too obvious for a packer blamer!


~SH~
 
~SH~ said:
How many times do I have to tell you Rod, it's not the size of the cut itself, it's the RED MEAT YIELD from a single carcass. If 15" ribeyes were not in demand, WHY ARE THEY PAYING PREMIUMS FOR THEM ON THE GRID??

Answer that simple question Rod.

Let me see if I can hand hold you through this simple logic exercise:

1) Consumers want smaller cuts of beef that are easy to prepare in today's hectic world. That is what the consumers are demanding.

2) Packers want to deliver those smaller cuts and meet customer demand. They can do it one of two ways:

i) Smaller carcasses yielding smaller primary cuts. More carcasses needed, therefore slower cutting. Less "efficient". Also better beef, but who cares about quality, right?

ii) Larger carcasses where they can cut large cuts into small ones, get higher yield and cut more efficiently.

For you to say that consumer demand is driving larger carcasess is either a blatant lie or you simply have no comprehension of how to cut an animal up. I just showed you EXACTLY the difference between consumer demand and packer demand.

Tell me again what cuts the consumer DEMAND that REQUIRE an 800 lb carcass that CANNOT be delivered with a 650 lb carcass? Just name one. All you keep babbling about is red meat yield, which only affects the packer, not the consumer.

Rod
 
There aren't many 650 lb. carcasses any more. According to Canfax the average steer carcass (warm weight) in 2005 was 827 lbs. and heifers averaged 772. Those are averages so many are considerably larger. If I remember correctly, around 15 years ago the packers normally discounted carcasses over 725 lbs. now that is well below the average weight.

I have to admit I haven't followed this very closely Rod but you have me a bit confused:
i) Smaller carcasses yielding smaller primary cuts. More carcasses needed, therefore slower cutting. Less "efficient". Also better beef, but who cares about quality, right?

I would also be interested in your theory that a 650 lb. carcass is of higher quality than an 800 lb. carcass when we know that marbling is associated with age and time on feed. Not that IMF is the only factor in quality but it is an important one.

All the larger ribeye does is allow the packer to cut into it, ruining the quality, all in the name of cutting efficiency.

How does cutting a ribeye ruin the quality of it?

Thanks Rod.
 

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