How do you know?

[Big Muddy rancher]

I just got in from pulling a calf. We have the hfrs in the yard and are watching them pretty close. Most of them calve we tag them and move them out. We have had to help a few. The other night one was taking her time and the calf's tongue was swelling so we pulled and it was fine. This morning I put a hfr in at shortly after 6am and let her settle and get down to business. she hadn't made much progress by 7:30 so i called my daughter and we pulled the calf. No swelling in the tongue but it came dead. I really like to give them time but a deal like this really makes you wonder. :???:

 

[gcreekrch]

I know what you mean, some just seem to fulfill their lifelong dream early.

 

[Soapweed]

I just got in from pulling a calf. We have the hfrs in the yard and are watching them pretty close. Most of them calve we tag them and move them out. We have had to help a few. The other night one was taking her time and the calf's tongue was swelling so we pulled and it was fine. This morning I put a hfr in at shortly after 6am and let her settle and get down to business. she hadn't made much progress by 7:30 so i called my daughter and we pulled the calf. No swelling in the tongue but it came dead. I really like to give them time but a deal like this really makes you wonder. :???:

I know what you are talking about, Big Muddy. Usually it pays to give them plenty of time so they are completely dialated. If you try to pull a calf too quick, often the head will go back and then you do have problems. Possibly since you saw this heifer first thing this morning, she may have been calving already longer than you thought.

We have had the same problem with a couple heifers this year also. When we pull a calf that is already dead, we don't even let the mother smell it. Then we can grab a calf from an old cow and stick in a boxstall with the young cow. The young cow adopts the graft calf quite readily under these conditions.

We are down to one heifer left to calve and about 45 cows. Seems like we're on vacation.

 

[sic 'em reds]

I agree with all Soap had to say. It's a hard thing to deal with, but unless you're there 24-7, you never know quite what happens.

If I see something looking like they are going to do it, I will put them in my panels in jug and wait. After they settle down they will usually get it done themselves, but if they get close to the hour mark they get pulled out of convenience for me. Same thing at night, if something looks suspect, they get gathered up and put in the panels so I am not chasing around the cornstalks at dark thirty.

It sucks to lose the calf and have to graft a calf or haul one to town, but at least with heifers you can still get a decent price for them. It's best to show up and see a new happy family.

 

[per]

I assume the question is rather rhetorical. Intervening is too early usually causes near term or future harm. Intervening to late usually causes near term harm. I use Soaps protocol on grafting if she has never licked it. Yes I am skirting around the question because there is no satisfactory answer.

 

[PureCountry]

As they say, if you're gonna have Livestock, you're gonna have Deadstock. Don't let it bum you out too much BMR.

Our milk cow had a stillborn calf this year - never happens. Brown Swiss are usually fool proof calvers, and we'll never know what happened,that's just life.

Lesson to learn - cull these types b/c there are plenty that have calves to replace them. The best thing about a dead animal, is it can't pass on it's genetics. :wink:

 

[Cal]

I just got in from pulling a calf. We have the hfrs in the yard and are watching them pretty close. Most of them calve we tag them and move them out. We have had to help a few. The other night one was taking her time and the calf's tongue was swelling so we pulled and it was fine. This morning I put a hfr in at shortly after 6am and let her settle and get down to business. she hadn't made much progress by 7:30 so i called my daughter and we pulled the calf. No swelling in the tongue but it came dead. I really like to give them time but a deal like this really makes you wonder. :???:

Probably no swelling of the tongue because, through no fault of your own, it had been dead longer than you might think. Placenta detached....who knows? A dead calf for no obvious reason, or even one that dies a short time after birth means another cull cow. No second chances here.

 

[WyomingRancher]

Probably no swelling of the tongue because, through no fault of your own, it had been dead longer than you might think. Placenta detached....who knows? A dead calf for no obvious reason, or even one that dies a short time after birth means another cull cow. No second chances here.

:agree: :agree: :agree:

Don't kick yourself, I agree with Cal, I'll bet there were other problems going on. I had a cow with a stillborn this spring, full-term, hair was just starting to slip on it. I don't know why it died, or even care... she's a cull. I've had a few in years past where the placenta detaches, and so if a cow is calving and I see cotyledons, I pull is ASAP. Sorry about your loss, but I doubt you could've prevented it. Hope things get better!

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

THANKS GUYS AND GAL

I'm not to "Bummed" but it does suck when your right there .
I was looking at it as i had it in the sled to haul out of the barn but had to dump it out to go bring another calf in. I think that hfr sneezed and her calf popped out.
Anyways the calf seemed to bleed a lot at the navel so probably the cord had broken before we even started to pull.

OH well ya can't win em all.

Rainy wet day here. The grass should real come on when it warms up.


I don't know if I could get up the road to the cows to snatch one off a old cow. It is muddy.

 

[John SD]

These are some of my observations, FWIW. Worth what you paid for this. :wink:

I agree with the guys and gal. :wink: If a cow with a difficult birth has a calf without a swelled tongue, that usually means the calf was dead, ie no ciruculation in the first place.

If calf size is an issue in the birth, it is even more so if the calf is dead because the calf won't stiffen up when the cow contracts during labor.

When the calf is dead it's like the cow is trying to give birth to a calf with the aerodynamics (no that's not the word I want but you get my drift) of a huge grease rag.

I had a middle aged cow give birth to dead twin heifer a couple days ago. Don't know what happened. Had them together in the same location. No apparent swelling. She sure had them cleaned up good. Appear full term, about 60 lbs each.

Stuff happens and you can't save them all.

 

[Silver]

I know where you're coming from BMR, it's a danged if you do and danged if you don't deal.
Since we're on the subject of calving and such..... what do you folks do with a calf that has it's head turnde right back to it's hip and the front legs coming. And you can't get near it's head or reach anything to pull on to straighten things out. A snare doesn't work in this situation because they are too soft to push in and trap the head. In my experience you can push, pull, twist and cuss but you can't necessarily get them.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

Not real sure on technique for your problem Silver. I just had a hfr with one foot showing and the foot was quite bent over. I should had clicked sooner but i finally reached in and the other foot/leg was down but not really back. Had to push the calf back against a hard staining hfr but managed to snag the foot up the it came pretty easy. Both front feet seem bent over so i might have to milk her out and tube the calf.


After supper.

It's starting to snow after a day of rain.

 

[John SD]

Silver, my experience with those kind of abnormal presentations is sometimes that the calf is too big and there is not enough room in the first place.

The older I get the less adventuresome I am on my own. If I can't seem get things straightened out myself I quit while I'm ahead and load up and head to town to the vet.

Normally I can usually get things straightened out on a cow on my own. Thankfully the worst thing I've run in to is the calf backwards with feet back and only a tail there.

I've only taken heifers with a calf too large to pull and knock on wood haven't had to go to the vet with a calving case for several years. So far being too chicken to hook on the calf puller has been the correct call.

 

[Silver]

Silver, my experience with those kind of abnormal presentations is sometimes that the calf is too big and there is not enough room in the first place.

Normally I would agree with you, but this last cow seemed to have room enough I could push the calf back in quite a way. But I still couldn't get it.
I considered the vet...... but by that time I was shoulder deep in the side door
I see the vet once a year at preg checking time, and that's getting too expensive as it is.

 

[Aaron]

Silver, my experience with those kind of abnormal presentations is sometimes that the calf is too big and there is not enough room in the first place.

Normally I would agree with you, but this last cow seemed to have room enough I could push the calf back in quite a way. But I still couldn't get it.
I considered the vet...... but by that time I was shoulder deep in the side door
I see the vet once a year at preg checking time, and that's getting too expensive as it is.

Had a neighbour's heifer do the exact thing your talking about Silver. After six hours of trying to retrieve a dead calf, and no access to a vet, a .22 solved the problem. Even if we had access to a vet, it's doubtful he would be called. The resulting C-section would be the value of two cull cows in our area.

 

[Silver]

Silver, my experience with those kind of abnormal presentations is sometimes that the calf is too big and there is not enough room in the first place.

Normally I would agree with you, but this last cow seemed to have room enough I could push the calf back in quite a way. But I still couldn't get it.
I considered the vet...... but by that time I was shoulder deep in the side door
I see the vet once a year at preg checking time, and that's getting too expensive as it is.

Had a neighbour's heifer do the exact thing your talking about Silver. After six hours of trying to retrieve a dead calf, and no access to a vet, a .22 solved the problem. Even if we had access to a vet, it's doubtful he would be called. The resulting C-section would be the value of two cull cows in our area.

That's why we do our own c-sections here. It's a valuable little bit of know-how, and not normally that difficult.
This particular situation was a bit of a kicker though.... I attempted the c-section and still could'nt retrieve the calf :shock: Never had that happen before. The cow's gut was very tight, no room around the outside of the uterus, I was only able to just brush the tips of the calf's feet with my fingers and there was nothing to gain a purchase on.
So..... she met the same fate as your neighbour's heifer
I guess if you calve enough out you'll run into such things from time to time.

 

[therancher]

In replyto head back around to the hip . Neighbor had aheifer with the problem she was laying down I tryed couldn't get it .called vet he worked two hrs.never got it. Less than a week latter I had one calf weighed over 120 pounds long neck I got him alive .difference I think was I kept the cow on her feet. Next time will always lift the cow with Hip huggers so we have less pressurewhile were trying to flip the neck and head. My two cents worth!

 

[Silver]

I allways pull calves in the chute standing up. Well, standing up may be a bit of a stretch.... I sling them at the heart girth, and bunch them up a bit with a pole behind them. They often tend to end up sitting on the pole, which does take away a bit of room. Tell me about these 'hip huggers', I was mentally coming up with a plan to use a set of old ice tongs and modify the tong part to cup the pelvis and hoist them that way from the ceiling.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

Silver take your pick.

http://www.hip-hugger.com/?source=google&gclid=COjk0Kvil5oCFRJdxwodE1EQ9g

http://www.nvmetalworks.com/CowLift.html

http://www.americanlivestock.com/pc-269-81-cow-lift.aspx

 

[Silver]

Thanks BMR, very interesting and similar to what I had in mind. How come all the cool ideas I come up with have been invented for years without my knowledge? :???: