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Is this fraud?

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Is the described operation fraud?

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Jason

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I read about a putiing cold water, sugar and salt into a carcass to tenderize the beef, keep it red and lower the PH.

With all the jawing about marinade preparations I wonder if the same people feel this process is fraud too?
 
Jason said:
I read about a putiing cold water, sugar and salt into a carcass to tenderize the beef, keep it red and lower the PH.

With all the jawing about marinade preparations I wonder if the same people feel this process is fraud too?

Give us a little more details-- Is this solution injected? Is it packaged in this solution? Does the labeling say it has been prepared in this solution and/or is packaged in this solution and account for that in the weight?

Meat was packed in brine for years-- also was salted to prevent spoilage...

Need to no more....
 
Here is an exact quote.

Immediately after the animal is stunned, a cold solution of water, sugar and salt is injected into the arterial system... it circulates throughout the carcass. By lowering muscle tissue pH, the solution keeps the meat a desireable red color. The acidity that develops in the carcass also helps to tenderize the meat.
 
Jason said:
I read about a putiing cold water, sugar and salt into a carcass to tenderize the beef, keep it red and lower the PH.

With all the jawing about marinade preparations I wonder if the same people feel this process is fraud too?

Hi Jason, A good friend of mine, Hughes Bagley, developed the system you are referring to in the earley 1970s for IBP, that has allowed most of the big packers, to sell tons and tons of water, at the price of beef. Shrink them 3% bought weight, add 12% selling weight, what a deal.

Ben Roberts
 
Actually Jason the recipe that I have seen work very well is 1/2 to 500 cc's, of Welsh Black or Galloway semen; frozen or fresh. No fraud and doesn't give the packers any more opportunity for unethical manipulation than they already have. :wink:

Seen your post about those Angus cows bringing 10 hundred bucks. Are you suggesting I switch breeds bud? Do you guys need some help marketing bulls?
 
Ben Roberts said:
Jason said:
I read about a putiing cold water, sugar and salt into a carcass to tenderize the beef, keep it red and lower the PH.

With all the jawing about marinade preparations I wonder if the same people feel this process is fraud too?

Hi Jason, A good friend of mine, Hughes Bagley, developed the system you are referring to in the earley 1970s for IBP, that has allowed most of the big packers, to sell tons and tons of water, at the price of beef. Shrink them 3% bought weight, add 12% selling weight, what a deal.

Ben Roberts

Tyson perfected this in their poultry operations.

I don't know, Jason, finding a way to pay less to the producer and make the consumer pay more---who benefits?
 
rkaiser said:
Seen your post about those Angus cows bringing 10 hundred bucks. Are you suggesting I switch breeds bud? Do you guys need some help marketing bulls?

Think what those $860 (US) Canadian cows will do to our seedstock breeders and cattlemens markets when/if they can be dumped on our current $1300-1500 young cow market :???: :( :mad:

Sure devalue your investment awful fast :(
 
It would be interesting to see some verified information on this, the formula, timing, etc., quantity used per carcass, how long it remains in the animal and in what form, does any of it drain out, how the beef differs from non-treated beef, tenderness or texture changes, if any, cost/benefit analysis, etc. Does anyone think of any other questions about it?

It seems the value of rapidly chilling the carcass via circulating very cold water would be a plus.

Is this the same system Mike Callicrate uses? Haven't we seen reference to his running water through the carcass circulatory system to have better beef to sell?

Is this what Tyson does, or do they just leave the poultry to soak up wash water in the vats like others do, or did? My understanding is poultry is now placed on the hook and water run into and over them, rather than the "fecal soup" bath making headlines a few years ago. Correct, or not?

I do know that NCBA worked long and hard to stop the practice of the poultry, not just chicken, being allowed to soak up water and sell it at price of the poultry. Think we even succeeded in getting a law or rule abolishing the practice, but not sure it was ever implemented, and believe Tom Daschle took some credit for 'helping' us. I've forgotten the dollar amount advantage it gave poultry over beef, but it was amazingly large.

MRJ
 
Wow huge concern about added products to keep the red color of beef.

This is the process that Callicrate is involved with.

The article was a conversation with the chef of the Black Bear Restaraunt.

He said some interesting things. The beef that he uses is Wagyu/Angus in genetics, marbling is about double what prime requires.

He thinks animal ID is necessary, and desireable. His customers want food safety, but some think it comes from corporate farms as they are the only ones big enough to have the whole deal covered. Others think independant small farms are safer.

He said if he has to offer a cheaper price he has to use sysco as a supplier, but if price is no object, his own angus/wagyu are priced according to whatever it costs. His menu has to change depending on what is in season.

It looks like as soon as Callicrate was mentioned, the sky is falling crowd stopped voting.

The article is a good read no matter who is involved with the process, lots to learn about all consumers of beef.
 
I read about a putiing cold water, sugar and salt into a carcass to tenderize the beef, keep it red and lower the PH.

With all the jawing about marinade preparations I wonder if the same people feel this process is fraud too?

Its called "seasoned" and its the reason I don't buy 'seasoned' frozen chicken breasts anymore. They can only water log frozen chicken as it would just run out of the meat if not held in a solid state. Thats why you end up boiling your chicken stir fry. I was horrified when they did it to beef. They must be plumping up old cow carcasses in an attempt to make them edible without hanging. I can't imagine it fooling the consumer for long.
 
MRJ said:
It would be interesting to see some verified information on this, the formula, timing, etc., quantity used per carcass, how long it remains in the animal and in what form, does any of it drain out, how the beef differs from non-treated beef, tenderness or texture changes, if any, cost/benefit analysis, etc. Does anyone think of any other questions about it?

It seems the value of rapidly chilling the carcass via circulating very cold water would be a plus.

Is this the same system Mike Callicrate uses? Haven't we seen reference to his running water through the carcass circulatory system to have better beef to sell?

Is this what Tyson does, or do they just leave the poultry to soak up wash water in the vats like others do, or did? My understanding is poultry is now placed on the hook and water run into and over them, rather than the "fecal soup" bath making headlines a few years ago. Correct, or not?

I do know that NCBA worked long and hard to stop the practice of the poultry, not just chicken, being allowed to soak up water and sell it at price of the poultry. Think we even succeeded in getting a law or rule abolishing the practice, but not sure it was ever implemented, and believe Tom Daschle took some credit for 'helping' us. I've forgotten the dollar amount advantage it gave poultry over beef, but it was amazingly large.

MRJ

Tyson still allows their poultry to go into the vat and soak up. The last time I visited one of their plants, they had the process shielded so no one could see it. Before, you could see them dumping together. The "communal" bath has the problem of fecal material on one carcass contaminating others--and all over the carcass.

MRJ, I don't believe there is a rule or law concerning this practice and know of at least one attorney in MS who has a lawsuit against one of the poultry companies for this practice. You may have succeeded in getting a label on the package as I have seen that as common place. There is a niche developing and some companies taking advantage of "air dried" but it is still a niche. They may employ water being sprayed on the bird. It is more common in Europe.

Tyson and others try to shrink their poultry and then soak them in water. GIPSA, when under the last "real" undersecretary, was not able to keep poultry for long periods of time and then weigh them as had been the industry practice. This cheated the farmer's out of weight that they were paid on. There have been some other methods employed by the companies like making growers put lots of clorox in the water so the chickens would not drink as much and get the shrink that way.

The chickens are packaged with a certain amount of water in them and you can see this when you buy these type of chickens.

Mike Callicrate's system is a little different from just plain old soaking and is done for different reasons. The beef, after killing, is injected with a solution into the circulatory system and it replaces blood that has not dripped out. The meat does not have that bloody taste you get sometimes with a local butcher. The solution is a cold solution and it immediately puts the carcass in shock and all the muscles tighten like in rigor mortis. There is an acid produced by the muscle when this happens that breaks down the muscle fiber tissue and makes the meat more tender (I think it is lactic acid). The solution is not injected to increase the weight, but to decrease the amount of blood in the beef and start the beneficial aging process. The extra acid produced also helps the meat keep longer. It doesn't waste as much during aging and even ground beef will last a significant amount of time longer.

I don't know exactly if there is more weight added to the carcass during this process, but I believe it is minimal.

I have had some of this type of beef and enjoyed it greatly. I even told my local butcher about it as I have had some of that blood taste before and it isn't that tasty.

I am not sure that the Tyson select and lower grades that have added water is accomplished in the same manner. I believe it is soaked or added to the package (if vacuum sealed) to accomplish the water intake. As Hanta Yo has attested, this does not produce a good product. It is, however, how Tyson does its poultry. I think their primary reason for adding the extra solution is to make a lower grade meat more palatable and the added water weight is just an extra bonus. They work together for the packer and against the consumer.

Callicrate will readily tell anyone about the process he does to get the product he gets. I am not sure that is the case with Tyson's beef and I know they try to hide their poultry water scam (I call it a scam because they are cheating producers out of weight, consumers out of meat, and potentially spreading fecal material for their bottom line). It is part of the lawsuit I mentioned in MS.

This should be something that NCBA should be working on, MRJ, and to the extent that they have, I applaud them. Consumers of all meat should be informed on how it is processed, the risks of that processing, and some practices need to just stop.
 
New hope from slaughterhouse method


Since 2000, third-generation meatpacker Frank Grindinger has been
using the ``rinse-and-chill'' method in slaughtering bison and cattle.
By SCOTT CANON

The Kansas City Star

"Everybody loved it. Really clean taste. Very tender..."

Rod Anderson, president and owner of Pierpont's at Union Station and the Hereford House restaurants


SCOTT CANON/The Kansas City Star

Since 2000, third-generation meatpacker Frank Grindinger has been using the ``rinse-and-chill'' method in slaughtering bison and cattle.


COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. - They get more meat off a steer here. The chops are more tender, with chuck eating like strip.

Experience suggests the way G&C Packing Co. slaughters animals yields meat that stays fresh longer.

Finally, research declares it a safer hamburger.

For reasons not yet fully understood, technology that third-generation meat packer Frank Grindinger uses appears to fight rather than foster deadly bacteria.

Yet Grindinger is not sure how much longer he will keep at the rinse-and-chill technique that quickly flushes out an animal's blood moments after the kill.

"People like hot dogs," he says "but they don't want to hear how they're made."

He suspects it is not appetizing to consumers to learn how within minutes after an animal is killed at his plant a nozzle pumps chilled water - sterilized and mixed into a kind of pickling solution - into the animal's vascular system.

Still, the Minnesota company that patented the rinse-and-chill technology hopes to revolutionize the world's slaughterhouses by improving beef quality and food safety.

"We're not adding chemicals," said Warner Ide, president of MPSC Inc. of St. Paul, Minn. "We're just reducing blood."

Early research suggests they may be on to something.

Not only do tests suggest a cleaner carcass in the packing house, but ground chuck made with the technique actually kills bacteria that usually thrive in red meat. One university researcher said she has seen year-old rinse-and-chill hamburger - not frozen, merely refrigerated - that she would gladly eat.

"Look at that. Look at that," said Grindinger, cupping a hand beneath the slit throat of a black and muddy steer, bloody water pooling in his palm. "It looks like cherry Kool-Aid."

He pointed to the limpness of the carcass after only a few minutes. Won't find that in the big packing houses, he said. Wouldn't have found it here at tiny G & C Packing Co. a few years ago.

The flushed-out blood and slack carcass - Grindinger used to see legs shake hours after a kill - comes from rinsing the bloodstream with cold water to more swiftly purge all life from the creature.

The cool rinse also drops pH levels quickly and evenly, which tends to produce juicier meat. Some parts of the animal, flesh on the neck, for instance, becomes easier to harvest because it is not spoiled by clotted blood.

The rinse-and-chill process has been developed over the last 15 years. After pilot tests overseen by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, it is now government-approved in this country and Australia.

While developed with the idea of creating a more savory steak, anecdotes about longer shelf life prompted research to explore its ability to improve food safety.

Researchers find the results dramatic.

In two studies, one involving 180 carcasses and the other 100, comparisons were made of conventionally slaughtered cattle versus those rinsed and chilled.

Coliform levels on the rinse-and-chill carcasses were 99 percent below normal, salmonella and potentially deadly E.coli 0157:H7 were missing completely.

In other tests, rinse-and-chill ground beef was compared with conventional hamburger after being deliberately infected with salmonella and E.coli. Rather than thrive, the bacteria perished.

"This method seems to have a protective effect all the way through," said microbiologist Joellen Feirtag, an associate professor of food science at the University of Minnesota.

A marketing squeeze

That suggests a bonanza to the beef industry, periodically troubled by contamination of ground beef from its increasingly concentrated packing plants.

Four persons died and hundreds fell ill in the Northwest in 1993 from an E.coli outbreak. Last year, contamination forced ConAgra beef to recall 18.6 million pounds of beef from its Greeley, Colo., plant.

Partly in response to that, the industry recently pushed through USDA approval of irradiation of specially marked hamburger and spent millions to cleanse the process of converting steers to steaks. In many plants, cattle go through a sort of cow car wash after being stunned but before the blood is drained from their bodies. Packing houses now often also steam pasteurize the skinned carcass.

Neither of those techniques, Feirtag said, appear to match the germ-killing results of rinse-and-chill.

Yet MPSC's Ide said his company is caught in a marketing squeeze.

"You'd be crazy to make a food safety claim. The minute something goes wrong, you get sued," he said, noting that the last defense against food poisoning is in a million kitchens of irregular hygiene. "It's complicated and a hassle."

Meantime, the industry is reluctant to take on such a significant change, and expense, on the packing house floor. MPSC charges a confidential fee for each animal slaughtered with its method that can add two to five minutes to beef processing.

So far, it has been used on about 1 million cattle over several years, always in smaller packing houses. About 100 million cattle are slaughtered annually in the United States.

For about four months in 2001, steaks produced from rinse-and-chill meat packers were served at Pierpont's at Union Station and the Independence Hereford House restaurants.

"Everybody loved it," said Rod Anderson, president and owner of the restaurants. "Really clean taste. Very tender...Just little bit of salt made this eat so well." Prime rib, he said, got especially rave reviews from customers.

But probably because the technique was so new, Anderson found supplies unreliable, and the meat did not always arrive cut they way he wanted.

"We couldn't run the restaurants and be pioneers in the cattle industry," he said.

Still, Anderson sees its promise. Higher beef prices are enticing ranchers to bring their cattle to slaughter earlier, sometimes before they've fully marbled the flesh with fat. That means more carcasses are grading as "select" rather than the higher USDA grade of "choice."

With the advantage of rinse-and-chill, an animal graded as select could taste choice, Anderson said.

Grindinger's clients tend to like his operation for its ability to improve what they produce, but he is uncertain that the added cost will pay off for him.

"Trying to market it to the consumer is all but impossible," said Grindinger, noting again that people tend not to want to explore slaughter methods at the dinner table. His clients "say, 'Yeah, this is great, but what do I call it?' "

To reach Scott Canon, national correspondent, call (816) 234-4754 or send e-mail to [email protected].



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Note: G&C Packing Co. processes all the Ranch Foods Direct, Calicrate Beef cattle which are distributed from the new Colorado Springs Ranch Foods fabrication facility and retail store.

"The best sirloin I have ever tasted," Todd Brooks, Executive Chef

www.ranchfoodsdirect.com

Mike Callicrate
P.O. Box 748
St. Francis, KS 67756
785-332-3344
[email protected]
www.nobull.net
www.nobull.net/legal
 
I did find some more information on the rapid chill. It does increase the carcass weight by 2.5%. The Tyson water added meat is injected with needles into the primals and contains more solution (more like adulterated if you ask me). Very different method and outcomes.

It is interesting to note (if my calculations are correct--secondary data) that the amount of weight added to a 600 lb. carcass is 15 lbs. The blood coming from this size animal is 60 lbs. so the process would replace about 1/4 to 1/3 of the blood loss in weight.

source of secondary data:

The circulating blood volume can be roughly estimated as 55-70 ml/kg body
weight or 5-7% by weight. In older or obese animals it is less, decreased as much as
15%.
 
Info on the rinse and chill system:

http://www.mpscinc.com/rinse_chill.html

Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with this company.
 

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