It's all about Caring

[rainie]

RobertMac: A perfect example is Walmart. Had to buy another BBQ last year. WE shopped around . The exact same bbq , model, etc. was 250.00 dollars cheaper at walmart. Didn't want to buy it there as we knew that the manufacturer was probably making pennies on it instead of dollars. Thats why they are such a big company.

 

[Anonymous]

I think we are about to the point where their will be a change- but again it will probably end up being more than we want- an overreaction....

And since now the Republicans are the party of the administration which has seemingly just openly and arrogantly decided not to enforce many of the laws regarding Big Business - much of the overreaction will go against them- and we will end up with a big change in D.C.- with the Democrats controlling everything - which may get some of the changes we hope for- but will bring along a huge package of Liberal agenda that we don't.......

I agree we need a T.R. to champion the cause of making business honest again...

 

[Sandhusker]

RobertMac: A perfect example is Walmart. Had to buy another BBQ last year. WE shopped around . The exact same bbq , model, etc. was 250.00 dollars cheaper at walmart. Didn't want to buy it there as we knew that the manufacturer was probably making pennies on it instead of dollars. Thats why they are such a big company.

Walmart is a source of friction between my wife and I. I simply won't buy anything from them, period. I have no problem what-so-ever paying more someplace else even though the product is the same and came from the same manufacturer.

I'm dumbfounded that people see a value in tax-funded incentives to lure businesses to their area - the idea being the dollars from that business will do the usual 5 bounces locally, but then they also shop at place that is known for squeezing suppliers so hard there is really only one "bounce", and that goes to China! There's also the issue of the strain Walmart's employees put on our social services system. People think Walmart is cheap because of the bill they get at the check-out, but they're not looking at the bill they pay via taxes.

 

[Big Muddy rancher]

RobertMac: A perfect example is Walmart. Had to buy another BBQ last year. WE shopped around . The exact same bbq , model, etc. was 250.00 dollars cheaper at walmart. Didn't want to buy it there as we knew that the manufacturer was probably making pennies on it instead of dollars. Thats why they are such a big company.

Walmart is a source of friction between my wife and I. I simply won't buy anything from them, period. I have no problem what-so-ever paying more someplace else even though the product is the same and came from the same manufacturer.

I'm dumbfounded that people see a value in tax-funded incentives to lure businesses to their area - the idea being the dollars from that business will do the usual 5 bounces locally, but then they also shop at place that is known for squeezing suppliers so hard there is really only one "bounce", and that goes to China! There's also the issue of the strain Walmart's employees put on our social services system. People think Walmart is cheap because of the bill they get at the check-out, but they're not looking at the bill they pay via taxes.

Sandhusker you should try some K Y Jelly for that friction. :tiphat:

 

[Econ101]

I think this is a very apt quote, Econ. We no longer live in a capitalist society, at least not one that Adam Smith envisioned, but rather a corporate society, where all the decisions are made for the good of the corporations, with the idea that the benefits will trickle down to the people.

Rod

You're exactly right, Rod. I don't like it.

What do you see changing that as long as consumers are shareholders in many of these companies that are publically traded and they provide them with (in the case of food) a less expensive product PLtUS a return on their investment?

Bill, most consumers are not big shareholders. The corporate world would like everyone to think that they have a vested interest via investments in corporations to benefit from what is happening, but they just don't. I don't buy that argument at all. If a corporation is making more money from doing illegal or immoral actions, no owner of that corporation has the right to profits from those activities.

If you haven't figured out that largely the wealthiest people benefit from investments in corporations and not the small time consumer or producer, you just will not understand the current system. When you do understand the system, you will realize that this argument just doesn't hold water. There are far more consumers who are the low level workers in production, than those at the top who have tilted everything in their favor in order to best game the system. Taking away from these producers and giving to upper crust because they have been able to tilt things in their favor does not increase the opportunities of "fair" capitalism for the majority, it lessens it.

 

[Clarencen]

This has become a thought provoking thread. I am not anti corporation, but I believe we now have a maturing captilistic system. This requires a different line of thought.

The man who wants an independant business is challenged. The time is long past where a person can start up selling pencils and shoe strings on the street. Or where you can take a small parcel of land with a pair of mules and a plow and make a living. Most any endeavor today takes a huge amount of capital to get started.

We must realize, that today fewer and fewer people are making the decesions as to where our wealth is to be spent or invested. It would seem that a young person starting out today should look for a slot that is provided by someone else. I don't know if that is good, but I don't see how we can change it.

About 40 years ago, a panel of business leaders made up to predict or plan the direction for agriculture. We see today that what they foresaw is happening. I remember that at that time farmers and ranchers said it could not happen. They really were naive, and refused to think things through. We still have people today who say all is well, I am setting well, nothing will happen that will effect me. Maybe more should look to see which rung on the ladder they are really standing on.

I don't know what should be done, or what can be done, but there is the old saying, "there are those who makes things happen, those who watch things happen, and those who stand back and say what happened.

 

[don]

clarencen made, possibly, the wisest post of the year. a few words to sum up a lot of experience and observation. i have thought to myself that the capitalistic system is almost mature and the big question is what happens now.does it follow through to the very end which will result in a lot of unrest and possible revolution or does somebody come up with a philosophy which can 'rescue' the western world from itself? every economic system develops until it destroys itself; we saw it with communism and capitalism is no different in that aspect.

 

[Mike]

One of the things wrong in ag capitalism now is the tax writeoffs enjoyed by many. Maybe we should limit those writeoffs to those who derive a majority/percentage of their income from ag related endeavors. i.e. Ranchers and Farmers?

I see some mighty big seedstock producers and grain farmers that have made their living in other interests.

Back a few years ago, we had a govt. appropriated drought feed program, that only paid those that derived 50% of their personal income from cattle.

 

[Econ101]

clarencen made, possibly, the wisest post of the year. a few words to sum up a lot of experience and observation. i have thought to myself that the capitalistic system is almost mature and the big question is what happens now.does it follow through to the very end which will result in a lot of unrest and possible revolution or does somebody come up with a philosophy which can 'rescue' the western world from itself? every economic system develops until it destroys itself; we saw it with communism and capitalism is no different in that aspect.

don, we were facing the same problem around the turn of the century. Sometimes things have to get so bad, that things have to change. I was watching a show on the gangs of New York City. They traced the modern mafia back to the gangs that were prevalent in NY in the mid 1800s. A reporter reported on the squalid conditions that were prevalent in the U.S. during the industrial revolution. Most of these conditions were born by the newest immigrants (no change in history here). These were breeding grounds for gangs who did what they needed to do to help themselves and the people who joined them from the ranks of the depressed immigrant and industrial workers.

People started seeing the problem. There were not enough Pinkertons to stop the labor strikes etc.

The upper society started to realize that unless the living and working conditions were changed, they would be at risk from the likes of the gangs that were in NY. That is when things started to change and we started getting labor laws, minimum housing standards (as ghastly as requiring actual window panes in apartments in NY), and other laws that ruled in the rampant abuses of unbridled capitalism and the control of money and power over the system.

Things will change. I hope they will be peaceful changes rather than revolutionary changes. It is up to those who wield power to decide their own fate.

 

[rainie]

I agree don. Clarencen made some really good points. Scary to think about how far this will go. Maybe not so much in our lifetime but I'm thinking more for our kids. When everything is said and done, could this ultimately lead to the classic have or have not society, where 3 quarters of the population work for the other quarter. This is already the scenario in a lot of other countries.

 

[don]

i think what makes it different from the early twentieth century is that business is more global so has much more power and influence than it did then and communications are much quicker and more accessible. i remember my father saying forty years ago (and look at the revolution in communications since then) that the next depression would cause much more violence because protests and resistance would be more organized. i know that the united states has never been the purely capitalistic society that it has claimed because there have been the barons of business that were buying power and influence from the very beginning. when was the first antitrust legislation enacted and used? i don't know; the question just struck me. pat burns was accused of trying to manipulate cattle markets back in the 1920's up here. i'm sure the big disruption that will either destroy economies or straighten them out will happen in the not too distant future. an economic rapture, so to speak.

 

[Anonymous]

I agree don. Clarencen made some really good points. Scary to think about how far this will go. Maybe not so much in our lifetime but I'm thinking more for our kids. When everything is said and done, could this ultimately lead to the classic have or have not society, where 3 quarters of the population work for the other quarter. This is already the scenario in a lot of other countries.

And that is what is/has been happening-- the wealthy elite class and the impoverished poor class growing much faster than the more politically stable middle class-- which means something has to happen...And like I said I hope we don't have an overreaction- but historically it points to it.....

 

[Sandhusker]

Clarence, "I believe we now have a maturing captilistic system. This requires a different line of thought. "

Wise words.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

What do you see changing that as long as consumers are shareholders in many of these companies that are publically traded and they provide them with (in the case of food) a less expensive product PLUS a return on their investment?

On my bad days, I don't think anything will change it. History is simply going to repeat itself eventually, our society will throw itself into chaos and something brand new will be spit out the other side.

On my good days, I think that concerned citizens can indeed make a difference. A good start would be making political contributions illegal. Every political campaign should be funded by taxpayers and follow STRICT rules and guidelines. No more of this 'money talks' crap. The next is to remove lobby groups from the scene. Individual voices. Force the politicians to make and maintain contact with their constituents. Maintain a pulse on whats going on around them. And on the politician side, make them understand that its what the VOTERS want that counts, not their own personal feelings. Once you enter office, you get to keep your vote, but thats it. Other than that, you are to do exactly what your constituents tell you to do. On the issues, you inform your voters of the pros and cons of each issue, then do what they tell you to do. No more of this 'protecting people from themselves' nonsense. And eliminate party politics. Why do I have to choose between three platforms with good and bad choices in each? Why can't I elect an individual to represent me that I trust, then count on him to carry out my wishes?

Clarence made a good point about a mature capitalist system. Unfortunately, our political system has not made the necessary changes to keep pace with it and the people have been forgotten.

Rod

 

[rkaiser]

Where the hell have you been Clarencn? In fact where have all of you been hiding your little philosophy bags? I think that Robertmac's post was another nail on the head post.

As far as the fear of change guys, don't' worry too much about revolution. It's happening. If you think that our little group of leaders here on ranchers.net is all there is - you got to look around. Even the most pessimistic old cowshit rancher I know has said to me lately that he sees a change.

Or how about the new book by our beloved Dr. David Suzuki. Probably more of a Canadian Icon than American, but his "sky is falling" theory has been admittedly changed in his new book called "Good News For a Change"

As far as the communication thing don; I have been thinking about that one lately. I think that the powers that wannabe don't like the ability that folks like us now have to communicate freely and easily in so very many ways. Sure "they" can use it as a tool as well, but it's awful nice to have access to the same munitions for as change.

Change is already happening folks, and yes Ms. Greg, we don't want it to go to far too fast. Can't be happening too awful fast when I am the first on this thread to suggest that it is already happening. :wink:

 

[Sandhusker]

What do you see changing that as long as consumers are shareholders in many of these companies that are publically traded and they provide them with (in the case of food) a less expensive product PLUS a return on their investment?

On my bad days, I don't think anything will change it. History is simply going to repeat itself eventually, our society will throw itself into chaos and something brand new will be spit out the other side.

On my good days, I think that concerned citizens can indeed make a difference. A good start would be making political contributions illegal. Every political campaign should be funded by taxpayers and follow STRICT rules and guidelines. No more of this 'money talks' crap. The next is to remove lobby groups from the scene. Individual voices. Force the politicians to make and maintain contact with their constituents. Maintain a pulse on whats going on around them. And on the politician side, make them understand that its what the VOTERS want that counts, not their own personal feelings. Once you enter office, you get to keep your vote, but thats it. Other than that, you are to do exactly what your constituents tell you to do. On the issues, you inform your voters of the pros and cons of each issue, then do what they tell you to do. No more of this 'protecting people from themselves' nonsense. And eliminate party politics. Why do I have to choose between three platforms with good and bad choices in each? Why can't I elect an individual to represent me that I trust, then count on him to carry out my wishes?

Clarence made a good point about a mature capitalist system. Unfortunately, our political system has not made the necessary changes to keep pace with it and the people have been forgotten.

Rod

I think you're onto something, Rodo.

 

[Ben Roberts]

Randy, your headline reminded me of a story about Philip Danforth Armour, founder of the Armour meat packing empire and the bull of the bulls, in a very capitalistic society.

One day a preacher knocked on Mr. Armour's office door, and ask Mr. Armour for a $100.00 donation, to help aid a couple that had just arrived in Chicago with no place to live or any work, and that the women was with child. Mr. Armour, quickley ordered his book-keeper to give the preacher the $100.00. The very next day the same preacher returned to Mr. Armour, and said he was sorry that he had ask for a donation to help the couple and was returning the $100.00 because the couple that he had ask the help for, was not married. Mr. Armour, then said to the preacher you hypercritical man, that is all the more this women needs help. Mr. Armour then ordered his personal physician to care for the women and deliver her child, and Mr. Armour paid all of her medical expenses, he also paid for her education to learn short-hand, a skill used very much in his day. The women worked for Armour & Company for many years, not until after the death of Mr. Armour, did she learn, what he had done for her.

You are correct Randy, the caring for human beings, by the multi-national corporations is by and large gone, and has been replaced by corporate greed for a few at the top. Some of the post on this thread, say that history will repeat itself, this is true, but I for one, don't want history to repeat itself. I want to change the marketing system that we have been handed down, from these multi-national corporations that are designed for their own power and profit, to keep us where we are, or drive us futher down.

Some on this thread, are saying it can't be done anymore, that those days are long past. Well, I say to those, if you want to take the easy way out, then do so. I read a sign one day, on the back of a door, in a fly fishing shop in Minnesota that said "We did not inherit our wildlife and natural resorces, from our fore-fathers, we are only borrowing them from our children." How many on this thread, want to leave the future of your children and grand children in the hands of the multi-national corporations?

Best Regards
Ben Roberts

 

[rkaiser]

I knew we could draw the old Pastor out if we had a bit of patients. Thanks Ben. We are almost ready to show off our Mission and Vision Statements and our structure manual will follow. Will be selling beef by the fall and in a major way by next spring. One thing about this business, the beasts we entrust to feed our families dictate the time. Funny how that time is needed some times to make us think.

You all may be interested to know that we have moved to a new level by allowing all breeds in to our Celtic Beef Alliance (New Generation Co-op) as long as there is some British influence in the carcass animal. Our strict cattle structure standards will eliminate a lot of cattle that cannot produce the ultrasound requirements and frame size, and our feeding protocol will make our product very unique. Better than RobertMacs - No. Better than any of the grass fed/hormone free programs in the USA - No. Just different - and different is what will keep us and other programs from being squished under the thumb of the multinational pirates. (can I use that word Ben - or are you gonna make me go stand in the corner :wink: )

Oh by the way - Old Kaiser himself is still forming a company on the side to merge with and expand the original Welsh Black, Galloway, and Highland branded products, supplied by CBA. Just in case BMR and other think I am heading too far down the communist path. :roll:

 

[Sandhusker]

Good luck, Comrade. :wink:

 

[rkaiser]

Not much luck involved Banker Bob.

By the way, does your bank roll projects that are environmentally freindly?

The American arm of CBA is going to need a good bank.

Thought you were going to get off easy didn't you Mr. Ben Roberts. I think you have some work to do on the south side of the 49th. :wink:

Did I ever say CBA was "country of origin specific"?