I won't argue with anyones preference in grain or grass fed beef, but I wonder where we would ever be able to find enough grass to finish large numbers of cattle in a timely manner to supply the modern commodity market on a nationwide basis. I know that's not the market either of you guys are looking to be in, but that's where the vast majority of people get their beef and I don't see that changing for most folks.RobertMac said:
Joel Salatin.
- Thread starter mytfarms
- Start date
per
Well-known member
Chuck, it seem to me that the land that currently grows grain could grow forage. It takes the same amount of acres whether it is silage or grain or high quality grass. Timing is the real issue. There are times of the year that good forage is a challenge. :wink:
gcreekrch
Well-known member
reader (the Second) said:
I'm not Chuck but I can answer you in one word. Winter.
burnt
Well-known member
Ben H said:
Well today I was going right by a McD's so I stopped to try an "Angus" burger. If they are all like the one and only that I had, there isn't much chance for improved beef volumes due to the taste of that piece of . . . . cardboard.
I'm getting ready to shut this thing off, but I'll try to get back later if anyone is still interested. I'll admit there are large parts of the world and even a fair amount of this country where it works to finish cattle on grass. The first thing that comes to mind is land values. The second is weather. Argentina is a whole different deal. I live in the corn belt and I've watched our feedlots here dry up and blow away in the last 25-30 years. I think it would be a tough row to hoe to raise grass forage on land that currently sells in the $5,000 range.
per
Well-known member
$5000 land doesn't work for many agricultural pursuits. Land values and who is driving them have a way of changing.
Blkbuckaroo
Well-known member
I think the model of buying locally grown food,from a farmer/or rancher that you can put a face to,and knowing the food is fresh and not trucked thousands of miles is great.And keeps the money circulating in the local community.That works well.Problem is most ranchers don't live around a populous area with people that have a disposable income to pay the extra needed when you are selling a value added product,and trucking is cost prohibitive to farmers markets and restaurants.But most folks would travel to the ranch/or farm to pick up products and have the on ranch/farm experience that encourages them to come back for another purchase and hopefully bring friends also.Just a thought.People want a connection to thier food.Seeing them raised in a clean and humane setting goes a long way to promoting your ranch and the cattle industry as a whole.
RobertMac, unless you believe ALL cattle born and raised in the USA are top quality, then it is pretty easy to see that some cattle, in each breed and age group MIGHT produce better beef by being fed some amount of grain. Further, that they might be turned into better beef in a shorter time period.
Re. the "cardboard" taste of McDonalds' burgers: it might be interesting to consider the way the meat is handled and cooked. Could the same burger meat be properly seasoned with a bit of salt and pepper, gently shaped by hand rather than stamped into a thin, dry 'puck', and grilled properly and come out tasting very different than the usual McD's burger?
If so, wouldn't that be proof that it isn't the quality of the actual meat that is the problem, but the preparation method?
Re. grass-fed versus grain-fed, I'll be quick to state that I've not eaten grassfed from very young animals fed solely on green and growing grass. I most often eat grassfed beef from cattle that are age 2 years or (most often) older. I believe that gives a different flavor, almost gamey, some say. It is also less naturally tender unless well aged. The most we are able to get it aged is 14 days. I would much prefer 21 to 28 days, but just don't have anyone in the area who will do that. What is the typical aging time of most beef promoted as grass-fed?
RobertMac, and others here who sell it, how long is your grass-fed beef aged, and what age is it when slaughtered? Is it always fed green, growing grass? What is the size of the pastures/paddocks? Is it naturally renewable native grasses on continuous sod, or is it annually planted grasses and forages? I feel all that is important, as it, along with slaughter age and other feed can indicate whether an animal has distances to walk for exercise that make muscles develop fully. Wouldn't those factors have a bearing on tenderness and flavor of the meat?
Re. why more land isn't used to grass finish cattle: weather, including high and low temperatures, but maybe more importantly, annual amount and timing of precipitation and length of growing season, profitability of alternative 'crops' and land taxes. In other words, what can one grow and make a living from, given his own expertise, knowledge, and interests, yet be a good steward of the land and wildlife?
mrj
Re. the "cardboard" taste of McDonalds' burgers: it might be interesting to consider the way the meat is handled and cooked. Could the same burger meat be properly seasoned with a bit of salt and pepper, gently shaped by hand rather than stamped into a thin, dry 'puck', and grilled properly and come out tasting very different than the usual McD's burger?
If so, wouldn't that be proof that it isn't the quality of the actual meat that is the problem, but the preparation method?
Re. grass-fed versus grain-fed, I'll be quick to state that I've not eaten grassfed from very young animals fed solely on green and growing grass. I most often eat grassfed beef from cattle that are age 2 years or (most often) older. I believe that gives a different flavor, almost gamey, some say. It is also less naturally tender unless well aged. The most we are able to get it aged is 14 days. I would much prefer 21 to 28 days, but just don't have anyone in the area who will do that. What is the typical aging time of most beef promoted as grass-fed?
RobertMac, and others here who sell it, how long is your grass-fed beef aged, and what age is it when slaughtered? Is it always fed green, growing grass? What is the size of the pastures/paddocks? Is it naturally renewable native grasses on continuous sod, or is it annually planted grasses and forages? I feel all that is important, as it, along with slaughter age and other feed can indicate whether an animal has distances to walk for exercise that make muscles develop fully. Wouldn't those factors have a bearing on tenderness and flavor of the meat?
Re. why more land isn't used to grass finish cattle: weather, including high and low temperatures, but maybe more importantly, annual amount and timing of precipitation and length of growing season, profitability of alternative 'crops' and land taxes. In other words, what can one grow and make a living from, given his own expertise, knowledge, and interests, yet be a good steward of the land and wildlife?
mrj
RobertMac
Well-known member
RobertMac said:
How does corn improve eating qualities?mrj said:
If grain is responsible for improved eating qualities, why are there complaints about poor consistency(Wal-Mart beef)?
You are right that how meat is seasoned and cooked has as much or more to do with a quality eating experience.
According to Allan Nation, beef in Europe is preferred from older animals...4 years+.
I slaughter at 24-28 months...aged 2-4 weeks(most often 3 weeks). During most of the year, I give my cattle fresh pasture ever day or two...in winter, I time limit their grazing depending on forage growth rate and have hay available at all time(very poor quality by dairy or northern standards). My customers love the flavor of my meat...some have issues with tenderness, but that can be corrected with proper cooking. There are only a few cuts that are consistently fork cut tender...muscles which function is to hold the frame together, not muscles used for motion.
Winter??? There are producers producing grassfed beef in Canada!!!
mytfarms
Well-known member
Reading the Everything I Want to do Is Illegal book, the quick chilling instituted by the USDA may actually contribute largely to the fact of why leaner, grass fat meat is tougher. A more fat, grain-fed carcass would chill slowly, allowing the tenderizing chemical released into warm, freshly killed meat to be released for a while before the carcass is chilled all the way. However, for a grass-fat carcass, it is chilled much quicker, thereby canceling the release of the natural tenderizer. Fat doesn't necessarily mean tender. How the meat is processed and cooked also play a very big factor.
RobertMac
Well-known member
Very good...that's something you probably wouldn't have learned at a land grant university. In Argentina, they monitor the pH of the carcass as they slow chill it to keep track of the natural chemical tenderizing process...probably one of the reasons why their grassfed beef is more consistently tender than much of the feedlot beef.mytfarms said:
I don't remember if it was Bud Williams or Temple Grandin that said...a calf can have everything done right its entire life and be ruined at the packers door!!! Study stress and how it effects carcass quality(hint for mrj...stress has more to do with quality carcasses than feeding corn!!!)