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Just a thought on Marketing

Gcreek wrote:
In this area the need for the kind of horse you are describing is getting less and less. When a person had the need of long circle horses that would lope or trot 40 miles in a day and use any excuse to buck, transportation was limited.
Most people now will load into a trailer and haul to the far side of where they want to go and then wonder why their perfect ranch horse won't settle down until they are nearly home.

Gcreek, it's unfortunate but true. People don't ride like they did 20yrs ago. Unfortunately someone's word and a hand shake do not mean anything anymore. There is a bit of a corrilation between the two in my opinion. Things are changing fast and not always for the good.

Justin, good ahead and give your opinion, no one expects any less. Your not going to hurt my feelings.

Heck Dodge even offers a guarantee. You can ride a Ram for 60 days and if you don't like the way she handles you can take her back. :D
 
Flying S, I can see a short try it out guarantee, but not the long term until the horse dies of natural causes one. Like a week or so giving the purchaser a chance to do some work that is expected of the mount. An agreement must be also made as far as the sale expenses etc. Also it would be good to have insurance on the horse for the tryout period. The horse would have to bring a pretty good premium for all the hassle.
 
Flying S, the nature of the transaction that you're trying to promote is exactly what many people would like to participate in. Forget, for a moment, the exact terms of the deal. People want to buy from someone that they trust and they want the product to be as it was advertised. This is true of the horse business, bull business or any other. If I were spending $3,500 or more on a horse I'd like to know that it was "as advertised". I'm small potatoes, but that's a lot of money to spend in my little world while risking that the product might be a fake. I don't think anyone could disagree with the honest and forthright approach that you're laying out here.

Heck, one of the reasons that people shop at Wal Mart is because they know that they can take back almost any product without a bonafide complaint. Not exactly apples to apples with the horse deal, but the trust factor is the same.

HP
 
It seems to me that you're wanting the benefits of a private sale with the prices of an auction. That's just not going to happen. If you want to have a trial period you're going to have to pay a premium. The reason sale horses are cheaper is because of the risk factor; nobody is going to bid as high on an unknown entity (unless they're in a pissing match with another bidder). It is also a lot more convenient to take a horse to a sale and have it gone that day than deal with buyers and no shows. Somebody who sells their horses at a sale isn't going to want to deal with buyer problems whilst taking less for their horse. Equally the sale barn won't want anything to do with warranties on horses they've never seen until sale day. Something else that comes to mind is that a seller that is going to try and deceive someone is not the type to hang around to hand out refunds!

This is why I will never buy a riding horse from a sale barn. I'm no Chris Cox, I know I can't turn around a dangerous horse so i'm not going to increase my chances of buying something that I can't handle. If you have the ability, you get the bargains. If you know your limits, you spend more. Private sales are enough of a crap shoot as it is. I honestly believe that you don't know what you've bought until you've owned it for several months.

I've been on the other end of a trial period. The owner had me sign a contract stating that if the horse was injured while in my possession I would buy it. That didn't bode well when the horse had broken her halter and was pacing the trailer just 10 minutes after leaving. She hadn't been ridden in a while, and I was so concerned that i'd lame her and end up having to buy a horse I may not want that she spent two weeks in our pens. I understand the need for a seller to protect themselves. I have only offered horses on trial if they are vetted here before leaving and upon their return. I don't want someone to cripple my horse then return an unsellable animal.

The sale that a few other posters have referred to I believe is the WYO horse sale in Thermopolis, WY. They offer a 30 day warranty in the form of a credit for the next sale if a buyer is not happy. I have never been but they do have an excellent reputation. This is because they know the horses they sell; they are not open to all consignments like most sales. These are their terms:

AGREEMENT
If the horse is returned for the reasons stated in the guarantee and is in
the same condition as he left, then the buyer may receive credit, no cash
returns, for the purchase price at the next fall or spring sale. The horse
will be guaranteed sound and as represented for 30 days following the
sale date.
GUARANTEE
The Wyo Quarter Horse Ranch Sales guarantee these horses to
be as represented.
What is stated about the horse the day of the sale takes
precedence over the catalog footnotes.
Click to expand...

This is the one sale I would consider buying a horse from, simply because they do know their horses. 30 days to guarantee a horse as represented is risk enough, i've seen enough morons cause a good horse to act stupid within ten minutes of getting on them that i'd guarantee the horse but not the buyer!
 
I like to buy and sell a few horses here and there. I'm lucky in that I live in an area where there are quite a few good horses available broke on the ranch, and we have the coalminers with their 40 acre ranchettes. Its taken me a while but I've learned a few things. If I'm going to a sale with a horse and I advertise him, I will have him checked for any soundness or health issues by a vet. Next I will describe him to the best of my ability, and then I will give my name and phone #. This way you can call and I will give you referrences, or you can set up a time for you or your representative to come and try him out. Once the horse goes thru the sale though, he is yours. This is the best I can do. I don't know your ability, your setup at home or your feeding program. Here's a couple of "for instances". Before I left to go to the sale in Clovis, NM last year, the "Native" tells me to watch and see what a certain horse brought as she liked his bloodlines. It so happened I was able to get him fairly cheap. Well, after a couple of days in the pens, he got kicked out with the geldings. A few days go by and I went out to jingle in the horses with the intention of riding the new one. I was ashamed of how he looked. Come to find out, he was raised in the feedlots and didn't know how to get out and hustle. He had dropped some weight and I ended up having to feed him all winter. All my other geldings didn't get a hatfull of grain and very little hay all winter and stayed mudball fat. This problem wasn't the sellers fault, nor was it mine, its just two different ways of keeping and raising horses. The next scenario happened with an old trader I know from here and it was private treaty. He had a beautiful buckskin gelding that I just had to have. I asked about the horse and any holes he may have. The old man said, "well my daughter has just started him and he'll crowhop a couple of times and then quit". What he didn't tell me was that no one had ever managed to stay on past that second hop. I got him home and a couple days later decided to get him in and see what's what with "Ol Beautiful". Everything is going good until a dog 100 feet away barks. There was the excuse he needed and I was ready, chin tucked, toes out and a deep seat. By the second "crowhop" Ol Beautiful is wondering why I'm still there. By the third hop, he aint doing nothing but gatherin' steam. The fourth hop, I'm lookin' goooood. The fifth hop my left rein breaks. Now I'm off center and the seventh hop sends me skyward. Looking down at the saddlehorn and knowing this is my next landing spot, I'm gettin scared. The eighth hop is the clincher. As me and the "Native" pull up at the St.Onge, SD sale (she's driving as both of my arms are broke) every trader there runs up and wants to know the story on Ol Beautiful. All I said was "I hope that sorry SOB makes some good glue". That was enough of a description I thought. He ended up as high selling loose horse, and even went better than most ride thru's. The old man didn't lie. As soon as I came off he quit hoppin. I once sold a horse to an overweight weekend warrior friend of mine. I was honest and told the good and the bad about this little horse. Well, he just had to have him so we made a deal. Six weeks later he called and said things just weren't working for him and this little horse. Six weeks is a long time, but he was a friend. I tried to make it right and he said he'd trade for a little grey I had. I was taking a beating, but he was a friend. When he unloaded the original horse I had to look twice because I didn't think a horse could be that poor and still stand up. I stuck by my word and went ahead with the trade, but I let him have a good cussin. After I got the pounds back on him I went to try and work him and realized he had completely ruined this horse. I called and asked what happened and he told me that his dog was nippin at this horses heels and he got to kicking whenever something or someone come up behind him. Then he said when the whip wouldn't take it out of him, he drylotted him. Now when I sell private treaty, I get paid up front and you have a week to try him out. I take pics and video, and if he don't come back the same way, then you own the horse. I'm not a fan of the Billings Sale, but they will give you till Monday morning following the sale, I believe, to inspect the horse. Sorry for being longwinded, but I think there are way too many variables with horses and horsesales to offer much in the way of guarantees. as I've always heard, BUYER BEWARE !!!
 
I'm probably not going to make many friends with the following thought, but here goes.

The kind of buyer that doesn't have the common sense to look a horse over well (or take someone to help) and understand the gamble their taking at a sale is usually the same buyer that doesn't have the experience to own any horse. It's this kind of buyer that spoils a horse then wants their money back because they can no longer handle him. Often people are delusional about their abilities and requirements; it's not a case of being lied to as much as taking on more than they can handle. Weekend trail riders generally don't need performance bred horses. Novice riders don't need green broke horses. It's a whole lot harder to undo someone else's handywork than to train a horse from scratch, and I would not want that back!

I can honestly say we never misrepresent horses and never would do. It often sounds like i'm trying to talk someone out of buying a horse because I will tell them everything. If someone is stupid enough to buy a horse that they have been told is unsuitable it is their own fault, but I won't do that to one of my horses. In the long run the horse loses out when it is matched with the wrong person and ends up a problem horse.
 
flyingS said:
Let me rephrase "lifetime" to solid guarantees. Does that help anyone get by the terminalogy. I was trying to drive home the point of a solid well represented sale that would cater to customer satisfaction. If you want I will go in and edit the post so that you don't even see the word lifetime if it will make you feel better. Some of you people can sure get narrow minded, broaden your minds a little. Give a person an idea or two instead of putting them on the choping block. Dog gone are you all always so negative.
Click to expand...

FlyingS, really. It's not about being narrow minded, negative, or even trying to discourage what you're doing. Quite the contrary. You brought up a very valid unmet market need, and your desire to try to address it. Most of us have agreed with your assessment of the unmet market need, and feel that at some level, there may be a profit opportunity involved in meeting that need. Shoot, resolving unmet market needs is the only way to make money in a market economy, and I don't think anyone here has argued against your analysis that a) there are dishonest horse sellers out there, b) those dishonest sellers -- by reflecting negatively on the entire industry -- tend to influence overall industry prices downward, and c) that since a problem represents an opportunity, finding a way to resolve the downward price pressure occasioned by dishonest sellers could potentially mean profit for anyone participating in the implementation of that solution.

But, some of us with experiences that are different than yours also brought up where others (and sometimes we, ourselves) have failed in that endeavor, outlining where some of the speed bumps might be so you don't make the same mistakes others have made; this is akin to showing you what a potential path forward might be for you to be successful at what you're proposing, by showing you what the hidden problems you will need to resolve might be. You asked for comments, and we've shared them willingly and happily with you so that you don't have to pay for the privilege of making some of the mistakes that fellow forum members have made or have seen made. We've shown you what to avoid and where not to step, thereby helping you decipher a path upon which you might want to travel.

Why get so touchy about people's generosity with their experience, when you asked us to share that experience in the first place?
 
About ten years ago, I saw an ad in a livestock publication. It read something like: "Wanted: Big stout horse to carry a 200 plus pound rider day in and day out," and the buyer was from all places, Indiana. Well, it just so happened I had a horse that would darn sure meet those qualifications, and another that would do nearly as well if the potential customer didn't like the first horse. I contacted the man, and he explained that he owned a full section (640 acres) of old reclaimed coal mining country, and that he needed a big stout ground covering horse on which to patrol these vast holdings. I told him what I had, and he was very interested in journeying to Nebraska to see the horses. Knowing that if he bought either one, a current negative Coggins test would be needed, I took it upon myself to have a vet get blood from both horses.

The buyer showed up in a few days, traveling with a married couple in a pickup pulling a big strung-out older horse trailer. Looks were deceiving because most of the trailer was set up with living facilities with only room to haul two horses at the very back.

Not to be confused with "Indian," the "Indianaian" dismounted from the passenger side of the pickup and introduced himself. Just by his milquetoast handshake, I immediately wondered if he would be cowboy enough to ride either of my Coggins tested horses. He sure 'nuff weighed the 200 plus pounds, but was about as wide as he was tall. As both of the horses stood sixteen hands, it would be a problem for the man to just get on. My horses weren't broncs, but they required the skill of an experienced rider. I figured if either one was going to be ridden "day in and day out" the miles alone would keep them rideable. This man procured his saddle from the trailer and caution flags were starting to flap in the wind. The saddle was a "dude saddle" covered with dust, and the cinches were dry-rotted as it hadn't been used in years.

Adhering to the rule that "you can't always judge a book by its cover," I decided to let the would-be distance rider saddle one of my horses. With my assistance the saddle was put on his rat-chewed pad, and cinched to the horse, but not too tightly for fear the latigo would break. Somehow he got aboard, and I quickly mounted the other horse, in case he had an instant runaway. We walked our horses cautiously to the end of a tree grove and back to the trailer. We then switched saddles so he could try the other horse.

My conscience would just not allow me to sell either of these big tough traveling horses to this gentleman. He just was not horseman enough to ride them without a strong likelihood of getting hurt in the process. On the other hand, here was a person who had traveled all the way from Indiana to Nebraska with money burning a hole in his pocket to buy a horse, and I sure hated to see him leave my ranch without one. Just a week before, I had bought a short gentle horse. We saddled this horse, and I knew there was a perfect match. He left quite happy, and I was equally as happy when he paid me with cold hard cash. The only slight wrinkle in the process was having to make arrangements to get the horse Coggins tested later that afternoon when they passed through Valentine. A rush order had to be put on the results before they left the Nebraska state line the following day. I conversed with the man by phone a month later and he liked the horse, though I am quite sure he was not riding it "day in and day out." All is well that ends well. :-)
 
Chimenea, I do appreciate the comments. There is a bit of information I have not shared. I am not new to any of these experiences. I have been around the horse trading business my entire life. I know what kind of buyers are out there as well as sellers. I've ridden darn near more junk trader horses than good ones. I've seen a lot of rotten tricks and bought a horse or two that sure wasn't what someone told me it was. I know a lot of people that are in the horse business, the ones that are making a good living at it do not have to offer a guarantee, their customers know that there word is good. I apologize if I insulted anyone. People will always look for reasons why something will not work, very seldom are they willing to go out on a limb to make them work. Most people will not have anything to do with something that is out of the norm until it is succesful. Once it is succesful, everyone wants in. There has been very few post that have not had a negative comment or reason as to why a sale of this order could not be succesful. I knew I would open a can of worms when I made this post. Thanks for the feedback.
 
This is a story that I hope most of you will find some humor in...as we did.

In SW Montana, Craig Britton owned Montana Livestock Auction.
His wife was an avid barrell racer and really liked horses--way
moreso than Craig did. She promoted
a horse sale there she called "Horse-A-Rama" and she held barrell races
in conjuction with the horse sale. All was well and good, until Craig and
his wife divorced. Well, now Craig was into holding horse sales and he
was rather sour about the whole thing.

After the first sale he held without his wife, the second sale and
every sale thereafter, he announced from the auction block:

"If you buy a horse at this sale, take him home and learn to love
him. The seller doesn't want him back and we don't want him back." :wink:

Wasn't too long and he didn't have to hold any more horse sales... :P
 

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