Just for the sake of discussion

[Texan]

Interesting topic, Soapweed. And I agree with you completely.

On the issue of the surveys Oldtimer talks about, there are several floating around. Although there might be some later ones, the first one I link seems to be one of the most current of the really objective surveys. It was completed in December, 2003 and was done at Colorado State. Below is a brief summary (found on page 3), followed by a link to the complete 40 page document. It's PDF, so it's a slow loader if you've got tin cans and string connections like I've got:


Consumer Demand for Source Verification Labels

Federal-State Marketing Improvement Program (FSMIP)

"Overall, the COOL survey results suggest that consumers are willing to support a mandatory
COOL labeling program, that they perceive domestic beef to be very safe, and have a high-level
of confidence in U.S. government agencies as potential certifiers. However, when COOL is
compared to other attributes such as food safety inspection, traceability and tenderness, COOL is
valued the least. Therefore, while COOL may be important in isolation of other attributes, the
relative importance declines as other attributes are introduced in the choice set. It appears that a
system that would assist in the traceback of meat throughout the food system would be more
valued than country-of-origin labeling."

http://www.ams.usda.gov/TMD/FSMIP/FY2002/CO0353.pdf


And here's a link to a report on the 1998 NCBA survey:

http://www.beefusa.org/NEWSCONSUMERSRESPONDTOCOUNTRY-OF-ORIGINLABELINGFORMEAT4436.aspx





The survey from 2003 has something in it for everybody. Both sides of the M-COOL issue can easily find something in that one to bolster their argument. Of course, we all know that surveys can show anything we want them to. Not to mention the fact that the consumer can easily be led wherever we want them to go with the wording of survey questions.

For example, I bet I can form a survey showing that the consumer wants COOL so that they will be assured that they won't buy beef from US cattlemen. You cattlemen that don't believe that you're producing a food product make that easy. All I have to do is provide a quote from some US cattleman that says he's not in the beef business. Next, I ask the consumer if he/she would feel comfortable buying food that originated from those producers that don't consider themselves in the food production business. I'm afraid the consumer wouldn't go for that. Maybe they'd like US beef labeled as to origin so they could be sure they don't get any of it?

The consumer gets what the consumer wants, as long as they want it badly enough to pay for it. That's a fact. You can use that same old 'the big, evil, greedy packer is against us all' argument and the tired, old 'we can't fight the packer money' argument if you want to. But the simple truth is that if the consumer felt COOL provided them with a value worth paying for, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. We would already have a working V-COOL that was consumer-driven. And if it was really important to the consumer, no amount of money could stop it.

All you have to do is look at the dismal failure of the war on drugs in this country to see that. Cocaine, heroin, meth, etc. are prime examples of products that beat the odds and beat the big money used to fight them and continue to satisfy consumer demand.

If the illegal drug consumer wants to get high, and if that consumer is willing to pay the price, the production and distribution system meets those demands in spite of the billions spent to stop it. Supply and demand functioning against all odds. The consumer gets what the consumer is willing to pay for. With or without government intervention. With or without big money intervention. If it's really important to the consumer, the consumer will pay the price and the production chain will provide the product in spite of the money spent to stop it.

But, it's my opinion that the average consumer doesn't care enough about the origin of anything to pay extra for it. If a competitor can satisfy their quality and value needs, it doesn't matter to the consumer where it comes from, in spite of what they say in surveys.

The success of Wal-Mart is testimony to the fact that the average consumer really doesn't care about anything except perceived value. Not even with their food, because a Wal-Mart seafood counter consists of almost nothing but product from Vietnam, Thailand and almost anywhere else in the Far East that you can imagine. Products that are clearly labeled as to country of origin. But the consumer buys them anyway because they perceive a value greater than what they could get from demanding an equivalent US product.

The consumer is willing to go wherever Wal-Mart leads them. Many of you seem to overlook the fact that we as cattlemen don't represent the average consumer, so it seems foolish to me to keep applying our own standards to 'the consumer.' It's my opinion, that whether we like it or not, the Wal-Mart shopper defines the typical American consumer.

Personally, I'm just like most of the rest of you. I guess you could even call me a protectionist. LOL Given the choice, I'd buy a steak that was a product of Texas before buying one from somewhere else. But it's not so important to me that I demand it from my retailer.

I want a good steak that is tender and juicy and economical. And I want it that way consistently every time. And if it comes from Nebraska instead of Texas, that's okay with me. Or if it comes from Montana, that's fine with me, too. Even if it comes from Manitoba, I just want to be sure that it is tender and juicy and provides me consistency and value.

Yeah, I'm a protectionist, but I want protectionism that is consumer-driven. Protectionism that starts at the consumer level because the consumer demands it. Protectionism that the consumer demonstrates a willingness to pay for by investing their own money. Not something that starts at the federal government level because it is mandated by law.

But just like the BSE issue, this whole M-COOL debate between cattlemen is just like a cull cow....old and relatively useless. All it does is serve to further divide us. It just seems to me that it's a damn shame that we've wasted the best years in this business with all of the in-fighting. Years that we've all made money and could have been investing it in our futures by working together. Working together on responses to potential demand/consumption problems that are almost certainly ahead of us in the future. Working together to assure the consumer that we're on top of things.

The consumer already trusts cattlemen and the USDA to look out for them. The same survey that says they want COOL proves that. Their relative non-reaction to the findings of BSE positive cows proves that. To the average consumer, country of origin and BSE are non-issues because they trust cattlemen and they trust the USDA to work for them while they go along with their daily lives.

Why do so many of you NCBA haters and USDA haters seem to want to tear that trust down? Why do you think you have to vilify and demonize the USDA or NCBA with almost every breath you take? Sure USDA has some problems, but what's wrong with working quietly behind the scenes to try to effect needed changes? Working quietly, so as not to provide our enemies at PETA and our enemies at the anti-beef consumer groups with added ammunition to be used against all of us?

If we can't get along at this stage of the cycle when we're all making money, what the hell is gonna happen in a few years when many of us are losing money?

Hell, I give up now. On to something else that will most likely be a better use of time. Because nothing is gonna change. None of us are gonna change our minds. And I was trying to stay out of Bull Session, anyway. :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

Texan- I guess my major gripe with NCBA is that they put themselves out as a cattlemans organization- but at the same time back, lobby for, and promote the Packers/Retailers ability to lie to and defraud the consumer...Removing the labeling from an imported box of beef and repackaging to pass off as a US product is DECEIT- and I guess that is not the way I like American ranchers/cattleman being portrayed as- or any product they are connected with... If this was done with most any other product in the US it would be a criminal act...

And if NCBA can support this type of fraud and deceit it raises credibility questions with me on any of their actions....

Texan- I was a strong supporter of NCBA until they did their famous flipflop-- which no NCBA member has ever told me a good reason for- altho there are some good stories circulating of some individuals and corporate interests profiting quite well from the flipflop that, all tho so far unprovable, appear quite credible....Its kind of funny if you've been involved with this long enough- because now the same arguments of R-CALF's supporting M-COOL that NCBA tries to tear apart and argues against/and calls falsehoods are the ones NCBA was using in thier Pro-M-COOL arguments a few years ago and even testified under oath to in Congress.... :wink:

Truthfully I think the branded beef programs would take off and profit better with M-COOL...Once beef is labeled as to source country, more consumers will recognize and become aware of the differences in source and quality of beef and if the quality is there in the branded program it will help its demand...Now its just grab whatever the retailer throws in the display cooler because its all marked and looks the same....

Texan- You say you are against mandatory programs...What do you think of the mandatory school lunch program requiring US beef for the lunch programs- or this new proposal of NCBA's requiring mandatory US beef for the military? I think you've told me before you support Mandatory ID...

Or are you just for some mandatories :???:

 

[Tam]

- I was a strong supporter of NCBA until they did their famous flipflop-- which no NCBA member has ever told me a good reason for- altho there are some good stories circulating of some individuals and corporate interests profiting quite well from the flipflop that, all tho so far unprovable, appear quite credible....

Truthfully I think the branded beef programs would take off and profit better with M-COOL...Once beef is labeled as to source country, more consumers will recognize and become aware of the differences in source and quality of beef and if the quality is there in the branded program it will help its demand...Now its just grab whatever the retailer throws in the display cooler because its all marked and looks the same....

The flip flopping that R-CALF does, doesn't seem to bother you Oldtimer. Is it because they do it so often that they have desensitized you to it. Nothing famous about it just business as usual. :wink:

And Oldtimer you say you think the branded products will take off after COOL is enforced, if that happens it will be for one reason and that will be because consumers found the generic beef sold under the US raised label not of a quality worth buying. They will either buy branded or buy imported either way the average US producer will not see any beneifit to the label you want forced on them. If consumers really are demanding a label and are willing to pay for it. It's like Texan said you will not have to force packers to put in there. They will put it there VOLUNTARILY. The fact they haven't should have proved to you that the Consumer is not going to be the ones paying for the label if it is forced, it will be the one that forced to have it put there which is you as a producer.

 

[HAY MAKER]

- I was a strong supporter of NCBA until they did their famous flipflop-- which no NCBA member has ever told me a good reason for- altho there are some good stories circulating of some individuals and corporate interests profiting quite well from the flipflop that, all tho so far unprovable, appear quite credible....

Truthfully I think the branded beef programs would take off and profit better with M-COOL...Once beef is labeled as to source country, more consumers will recognize and become aware of the differences in source and quality of beef and if the quality is there in the branded program it will help its demand...Now its just grab whatever the retailer throws in the display cooler because its all marked and looks the same....

The flip flopping that R-CALF does, doesn't seem to bother you Oldtimer. Is it because they do it so often that they have desensitized you to it. Nothing famous about it just business as usual. :wink:

And Oldtimer you say you think the branded products will take off after COOL is enforced, if that happens it will be for one reason and that will be because consumers found the generic beef sold under the US raised label not of a quality worth buying. They will either buy branded or buy imported either way the average US producer will not see any beneifit to the label you want forced on them. If consumers really are demanding a label and are willing to pay for it. It's like Texan said you will not have to force packers to put in there. They will put it there VOLUNTARILY. The fact they haven't should have proved to you that the Consumer is not going to be the ones paying for the label if it is forced, it will be the one that forced to have it put there which is you as a producer.

Miss Tam,there have been numerous polls proving the consumers want country of orgin labeling,that's fact.
packers wont do anything voluntarily that wont make them money,including testing,just think where our export market would be if we did the testing the Japanese required,how much money was lost by all this foot draggin,what would be the status of the border with testing,no Miss Tam packers dont do anything voluntarily...........good luck

 

[Anonymous]

- I was a strong supporter of NCBA until they did their famous flipflop-- which no NCBA member has ever told me a good reason for- altho there are some good stories circulating of some individuals and corporate interests profiting quite well from the flipflop that, all tho so far unprovable, appear quite credible....

Truthfully I think the branded beef programs would take off and profit better with M-COOL...Once beef is labeled as to source country, more consumers will recognize and become aware of the differences in source and quality of beef and if the quality is there in the branded program it will help its demand...Now its just grab whatever the retailer throws in the display cooler because its all marked and looks the same....

And Oldtimer you say you think the branded products will take off after COOL is enforced, if that happens it will be for one reason and that will be because consumers found the generic beef sold under the US raised label not of a quality worth buying. They will either buy branded or buy imported either way the average US producer will not see any beneifit to the label you want forced on them. If consumers really are demanding a label and are willing to pay for it. It's like Texan said you will not have to force packers to put in there. They will put it there VOLUNTARILY. The fact they haven't should have proved to you that the Consumer is not going to be the ones paying for the label if it is forced, it will be the one that forced to have it put there which is you as a producer.

I guess Montana consumers are different from those around the rest of the country- or else the legislators all voted against the wishes of their constituents- eh Tam... :wink: :???: Montana's M-COOL was one of the biggest both party supported issues in the last legislature...

And consumers daily are becoming more aware...As I read yesterdays consumer sites all were commenting on two things- Johanns dropping of testing and how Canada was finding a much bigger BSE problem and selling unlabeled beef and live cattle into the US ...Neither will help demand....

 

[Sandhusker]

I think some of you are taking too narrow a view of what a USA label would mean. Taste is not the only reason. Safety is a big reason as well.

We've spent millions if not billions on beef safety in this country. For us to not label beef produced under the system that we've bought would be a huge waste of time, money, and effort. We just as well never of even bothered. Judging by the growth in organic/natural product, safety is a concern for consumers.

We currently have trading partners that use drugs on their cattle that are illegal to use here. They're illegal here for a reason. Without COOL, our customers take the chance of eathing tainted beef. Is that to our advantage?

I also don't trust all other countries to deliver a safe product. Some of our trading partners that sell us beef are third-world. For instance, how many of us here would knowingly pay the same price for hamburger from Mexico as hamburger from the US?

 

[Mike]

Food safety is surely important. But the big thing that is important to me, as I'm sure it is with the Canucks too is pride in what we do and I guess a little patriotism.
Sure there are some steaks that get through the cracks that aren't good, but most cattle that that aren't good enough to cut into steaks are made into canners/cutters, etc.
Any cattleman in the U.S. or Canada who doesn't want "Product of USA" or "Product of Canada" stamped on beef he produces should not be in the business to start with.

Do you people in the U.S. not take pride in what you do? I'll walk around a "Made in China" product to get to a "Made in USA" product.

Hell, I wouldn't mind them putting my name and phone number on my beef packages. I got nothing to hide.

To even have an argument about whether the country of origin should be included on the product one produces is ridiculous, at best. Unless he's got something to hide. :???: :???:

 

[Mike]

Soapweed I think you are right on track. If a person gets a piece of labeled meat and they are not satisfied with it, they will be looking for that label the next time but it will not be to buy it, it will be to AVOID IT. If you can not assure all beef is raise to the same quality then that label could just cost you far more than it will ever bring you. That is one of the reasons I keep saying be care of what you ask for as it could come back to bite you.

Why in the heck do you think we have a "Grading" system?

Hint:

So the "QUALITY" will be consistent. :roll:

 

[PORKER]

Mike,Hell, I wouldn't mind them putting my name and phone number on my beef packages. I got nothing to hide.

Well then, sign up right on the internet at www.ScoringAg.com .Every package of beef you sell or is in the local stores you will have it and your farm pictured on the records that every consumer can retrieve from a traceback code form on every label by going to his computer.Link here; www.scoringag.com ,hit search , then click on SSI-EID ,then type in this SSI-EID meat number , 545054924 you got your record and you can add your url address for your web page under the picture.

 

[Tam]

I think some of you are taking too narrow a view of what a USA label would mean. Taste is not the only reason. Safety is a big reason as well.

We've spent millions if not billions on beef safety in this country. For us to not label beef produced under the system that we've bought would be a huge waste of time, money, and effort. We just as well never of even bothered. Judging by the growth in organic/natural product, safety is a concern for consumers.

We currently have trading partners that use drugs on their cattle that are illegal to use here. They're illegal here for a reason. Without COOL, our customers take the chance of eathing tainted beef. Is that to our advantage?

I also don't trust all other countries to deliver a safe product. Some of our trading partners that sell us beef are third-world. For instance, how many of us here would knowingly pay the same price for hamburger from Mexico as hamburger from the US?

Gee Sandhusker here you are again spouting how you have spent millions if not billion to make sure your beef is safe. Now tell us do you trust the agency IE the USDA that was in charge of the firewalls and safeguards and the millions and billion you spent to insure that beef is SAFE? Do you trust the packers that process your beef? I thought R-CALF thought they were all a bunch of Greedy SOB's that didn't care about food safety. If you don't trust them why should the US consumers that will be looking at that US beef label. You can't have it both ways you either spent the money and those firewalls have the ability to protect consumers and your herd from BSE native or imported or you wasted that money and your firewalls can't protect your consumers or herd from any of it. Which is it? and should the US consumer trust your beef? :?

 

[Mike]

Mike,Hell, I wouldn't mind them putting my name and phone number on my beef packages. I got nothing to hide.

Well then, sign up right on the internet at www.ScoringAg.com .Every package of beef you sell or is in the local stores you will have it and your farm pictured on the records that every consumer can retrieve from a traceback code form on every label by going to his computer.Link here; www.scoringag.com ,hit search , then click on SSI-EID ,then type in this SSI-EID meat number , 545054924 you got your record and you can add your url address for your web page under the picture.

I would do that PORKER, but there's a little catch..........

The packer ain't gonna put it on the package cause someone might pick up my package before they do the "ZIMBABWEAN" meat. :lol:

 

[PORKER]

I have quite a few here in Michigan doing just this, including myself.Easy sell. Good ROI .Also talking to the Whole Foods down state and a couple of natural food stores too. Will need some more farm raised grass fed beef quick.

 

[Texan]

Texan- You say you are against mandatory programs...What do you think of the mandatory school lunch program requiring US beef for the lunch programs- or this new proposal of NCBA's requiring mandatory US beef for the military? I think you've told me before you support Mandatory ID...

Or are you just for some mandatories :???:

I just support some things being mandatory, OT. Is there something wrong with that? Do you really want everything to be mandatory? I'd like to think that I'm just like everybody else and would prefer that nothing be mandatory. But I've got sense enough to realize that some things have to be mandatory in order to work. Other things need to be voluntary, so that the people that receive the value from them are the ones that pay the bills.

As for the mandatory requirement that our tax dollars be used for domestic beef, I said that I believe in spending my own money within our borders as long as we get what we want/need and as long as we receive value for our money. Consequently, I also support using our tax dollars (my money) at home first. That's really not all that difficult to figure out, is it?

Now, I'm sure you'll want to go back to the "kids, disabled, unemployed, and elderly on food stamps" question. Of course I would prefer that they buy US produced beef. But the government assistance those people receive is an attempt to make them 'whole', to make them just like the rest of us that don't require assistance. Effectively, that assistance attempts to make them ordinary consumers. As ordinary consumers, if COOL is important to them, they need to demand it from their retailer.

They should demand it just like you did with Schwan's. That's exactly what I mean when I say that it should be consumer-driven. Of course, if their retailer can't provide what they want at that time, I hope that they will be different than you and not spend their money on competing proteins like fish just to prove a point.

I admire your principled stance on a lot of issues OT, but I guess our big difference is that you look at packers and the cattlemen in our neighboring countries as our main competitors, while I look at competing proteins like chicken, pork and fish as the competition we're most vulnerable to in the future. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about that.

You remember correctly about my view on M-ID. In fact, I'm probably one of the few around here left that still supports it and doesn't mind admitting it. LOL But I wouldn't support it being mandatory if it were only for consumer preference reasons or our own performance tracking uses. The reason I support it being mandatory is for regulatory animal health use. There's just no other way it will be effective as a traceback or trace-forward tool unless we all do it. And some producers will obviously have to be forced to comply. I wish it wasn't that way, but that's the way it is.

The really unfortunate thing about M-ID in my opinion, is that all we've done is delay it---delay it until something bad enough happens that we figure out how badly we really needed it. I'm not sure when that will happen, but when it does, we'll need ID, and we'll need it right then. Too damn bad that we won't have it.

M-ID won't be around in time to help us with that crisis, whatever it may be. But at least that crisis will get it done. At that time, we shouldn't be surprised to have it shoved down our throats without any input from industry working groups.

 

[Tam]

Soapweed I think you are right on track. If a person gets a piece of labeled meat and they are not satisfied with it, they will be looking for that label the next time but it will not be to buy it, it will be to AVOID IT. If you can not assure all beef is raise to the same quality then that label could just cost you far more than it will ever bring you. That is one of the reasons I keep saying be care of what you ask for as it could come back to bite you.

Why in the heck do you think we have a "Grading" system?

Hint:

So the "QUALITY" will be consistent. :roll:

"Sure there are some steaks that get through the cracks that aren't good" Your Words Mike now tell us if a person gets one of those graded US labeled steaks and had to pay big money for it will he take a chance if he didn't care for it. Or will he look for a different brand or maybe different COUNTRY the next time?

 

[PORKER]

PS , Mike , I have been talkin to a mid size packer in IND. and they may sell all this traceback beef to Food Lion .

 

[PORKER]

Mike,Hell, I wouldn't mind them putting my name and phone number on my beef packages. I got nothing to hide. And neither Do I

Well then folks, sign up right on the internet at www.ScoringAg.com .Every package of beef you sell or is in the local stores you will have it and your farm pictured on the records that every consumer can retrieve from a traceback code form on every label by going to his computer.Link here; www.scoringag.com ,hit search , then click on SSI-EID ,then type in this SSI-EID meat number , 545054924 you got your record and you can add your url address for your web page under the picture.

Know of any other system like this in Canada or the US.?? I don't think so!

 

[Texan]

To even have an argument about whether the country of origin should be included on the product one produces is ridiculous, at best. Unless he's got something to hide. :???: :???:

What do you think we have to hide, Mike? That doesn't even make sense. I don't have any objection to COOL. Just don't make it half-assed and mandatory. If it's mandatory, we all know who's going to have to pay for it.

 

[Mike]

Soapweed I think you are right on track. If a person gets a piece of labeled meat and they are not satisfied with it, they will be looking for that label the next time but it will not be to buy it, it will be to AVOID IT. If you can not assure all beef is raise to the same quality then that label could just cost you far more than it will ever bring you. That is one of the reasons I keep saying be care of what you ask for as it could come back to bite you.

Why in the heck do you think we have a "Grading" system?

Hint:

So the "QUALITY" will be consistent. :roll:

"Sure there are some steaks that get through the cracks that aren't good" Your Words Mike now tell us if a person gets one of those graded US labeled steaks and had to pay big money for it will he take a chance if he didn't care for it. Or will he look for a different brand or maybe different COUNTRY the next time?

Go take your "IF" questions somewhere else Tam.

We're not buying new cars here. It ain't as if someone is spending his life savings on a steak. :shock:

 

[Sandhusker]

I think some of you are taking too narrow a view of what a USA label would mean. Taste is not the only reason. Safety is a big reason as well.

We've spent millions if not billions on beef safety in this country. For us to not label beef produced under the system that we've bought would be a huge waste of time, money, and effort. We just as well never of even bothered. Judging by the growth in organic/natural product, safety is a concern for consumers.

We currently have trading partners that use drugs on their cattle that are illegal to use here. They're illegal here for a reason. Without COOL, our customers take the chance of eathing tainted beef. Is that to our advantage?

I also don't trust all other countries to deliver a safe product. Some of our trading partners that sell us beef are third-world. For instance, how many of us here would knowingly pay the same price for hamburger from Mexico as hamburger from the US?

Gee Sandhusker here you are again spouting how you have spent millions if not billion to make sure your beef is safe. Now tell us do you trust the agency IE the USDA that was in charge of the firewalls and safeguards and the millions and billion you spent to insure that beef is SAFE? Do you trust the packers that process your beef? I thought R-CALF thought they were all a bunch of Greedy SOB's that didn't care about food safety. If you don't trust them why should the US consumers that will be looking at that US beef label. You can't have it both ways you either spent the money and those firewalls have the ability to protect consumers and your herd from BSE native or imported or you wasted that money and your firewalls can't protect your consumers or herd from any of it. Which is it? and should the US consumer trust your beef? :?

I trust Tyson and the USDA more than I trust Mexico.

 

[Sandhusker]

To even have an argument about whether the country of origin should be included on the product one produces is ridiculous, at best. Unless he's got something to hide. :???: :???:

What do you think we have to hide, Mike? That doesn't even make sense. I don't have any objection to COOL. Just don't make it half-assed and mandatory. If it's mandatory, we all know who's going to have to pay for it.

All the work is already done. Every bit of foreign beef is labeled when it hits our shores. Mexican cattle have a "M' branded on them, Canadian a "CAN".