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Kit Pharo's sale

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Four inches of belly air is alot tougher to feed than 4 inches of thickness-I'm going to have to meet these mythical cowboys who always buty the biggest framed-fattest buls-they don't run in my circle of friends. Most sales they're all to damned fat-but if you are going to buy from a bucket outfit-don't buy the thinnest-he'll be even sorrier than the rest. The Angus breeds strength is it's momma cows not trying to beat the exotics in the feedlot-the Hereford breed pretty much ruined itself chasing that dog. A cow shouldn't weigh more than her steer does finished. Any of you guys who like the big cattle could call me-I've got some semen purchase mistakes from over the years I'd sell pretty reasonable-does GT Maximum ring a bell lol. I shoul;d just dump it but I'm too Scotch for that.
 
Faster horses said:
Any day will work, but they all must be figured at the same age. I guess 205 came to mind because that is the days they use for ww/ EPD's.

Can you average the days? I'm not sure about that, but perhaps so.
I know the birthdate of our calves and I know exactly how old they are. I figure the calf wt. to cow wt. individually when we precondiditon because we have a scale under our chute.

I suppose in your case you mean if you weigh them all and ratio them as the whole bunch but not as individuals. My mind works slowly anymore, so I would have to think about this. Feel free to convince me. :wink:

If our first calf was born March 25, and the last one was born May 1, the average date of birth would be April 12th, or is that correct? Most of the calves are born in the first heat cycle. Guess I am not sure how you pick an average age, but I'm sure willing to learn.

Went back and re-read your post. So if we sell them Oct. 10th, the oldest would be 198 days old, but the youngest would only be 163 days old.
I guess I don't like 'averages' much cuz it can cover up things. But I will wait for your response because I am likely missing something.
Click to expand...

When I enter the dates in the computer it comes up with an average. Or if you have 100 calves take the date of the 50th calf born. So we have an average birthdate. I then calculate how many days from that date to the weaning date to get an average age. Basically I want to adjust 1/2 the calf crop up and half down to the adj. weaning weight. The adjusted wwt average is bassically the same as the actual wwt. The main reason I do this is because I wean at about an average of 160-170 days of age and adjusting them out to 205 just doesn't work.
Is that a little clearer? I am not good at explaining things when I have to type it out.
 
Weaning weight is a pretty overrated management benchmark-you have to be careful different management groups aren't weighhed together-it's really for in herd use only-What is better genetically a creep fed-Feb. born 7 weight or a May born calf whose been raised on slough water and sunshine weighing 500. Top production doesn't always equal top profit-in fact I'd wager it never does. I weighed calves for ten -twelve years for ROP-I NEVER saw anybodies biggest cow bring in their biggest calf. Selecting high weaning index heifers can be a pretty slippery slope to get yourself on also.
 
Everyone is starting to add some pretty good points. When you get the combined wisdom going it is pretty obvious we all are targeting the same things maybe just in different ways.

One thing to add is have any of you looked at the data from feed efficiency tests?

ADG is a highly heritable trait so buying a high gaining bull will give you mostly high gaining calves.

When you factor in the feed conversion, some high ADG cattle are also high intake cattle. They eat a lot more than the average. There hasn't been enough work done in this area, but I will wager that feed efficiency is as heritable as ADG. If that is the case it is possible to feed a larger more efficient cow cheaper than a smaller less efficient one.

I know for a fact that if a cow is a heavy milker the smaller cow will require better quality feed than a bigger cow milking at the same level. The bigger cow can consume the larger quantity of lower quality feed and convert it to the same amount of milk.

There is a difference in breeds of cows. Some cows are called hay burners for a reason, while the same weight of cow of another breed will convert that same amount of feed into more calf.

I'm waiting for someone to explain how the old Traveler 23-4 bull sired a 1800 lb plus cow. :wink:
 
Here is a picture of our Kit Pharo bull coming 4 years old.
Took it into the sun, bulls don't always cooperate. This was a forage tested bull that we bought at a fall sale, as I recall. But I better go look that up too. Sure wish I could just remember things...

IMG_0354.jpg
 
Geez NR, two agreements in one post. I think that weaning weight or 205 weights are the most over used measurements in this whole business and the purebred breeders have manipulated them to where they are useless, and too many people forget that a 205 ratio is for that herd only. period. you cannot compare weights from this ranch with weights from that ranch. You are comparing pears to mandarines when you start doing that. Creep feed, lick tubs (same thing) mineral programs, grazing, none of these are the same from ranch to ranch. A breeder I know quit even putting those numbers in his catalogue. Our steers hang at about 1350 which is about even with the cow weight, we do even sell culls by the pound, don't we all? arents culls part of the ranch income? Isn't phenotype equal to genotype plus environment? You can have a 1600 pound cow that has been grown out to only weigh 1200 but can produce the 1600 pound steer. Environment is half of the equation. Those purebred guys are also taking 1200 pound cows and feeding them to 1600 to make them produce. Don't want any of those, guess that is why I have not purchased a bull for several years.
 
Some ranches spend thousands trying tomanipulate their enviroment to fit the genetics they perceive to be best-others leave the enviroment the same and let the genetics sort themselves. Our rations are balanced for a 1200 lb cow-if we have some that can't hack it at that feeding rate -that's their tough luck. This whole BSE thing let some cows get a free pass the last couple years but were weeding them out quick.
 
You asked about the Pharo bull in another thread FH. He looks to be a real muscled up bull to me. Lots of meat, and he is sure a square looking bull.
How tall is he compared to your other bulls, and how about leg height compared to the same? I have always been interested in their bulls, but wouldn't want something way shorter than our current bulls, so as not to have two types of calves.

What is your prognosis?
 
To tell the truth...well...he is TALLER!

We only have one other older bull though. The rest are only 2 year
olds. But this was a M/L framed bull when we bought him.

I'm like you, don't want to go a lot shorter really fast. I like the bloodlines of this bull, that is why we bought him. (Can you tell, Mr. FH leaves the bull buying mostly up to me?). He looks them over of course, so it is a joint decision, but he doesn't like bull sales much.

Actually, if we could stay right where we are with our cow size, that would be okay, but I'm afraid of adding more frame and don't want that.
I guess what we want is good growth without adding frame size.
Do you think that is possible to get in one package?

Thanks for your comments. I need to get a picture of him with the other older bull as comparison. The other bull is really a better looking bull, but this bull throws good calves.
 
You know, I think with modern genetics it is possible to do some neat things. I think you can get good growth without adding frame size. Maybe I will change the makeup of this thread to Deiter Brothers Bulls, lol, but I read some interesting things in their catalog yesterday. They added a tremendous amount of weight in WW and YW, and lowered their BW a bunch at the same time. The BW's are still way to high for my liking, but their genetic direction is going in the right way. I think they must be very honest with their numbers, as you will see a 110 pound BW listed in the catalog. In past years I saw some up to 120 if my memory serves me.

We got our Redland yearling bulls yesterday, and they are more in the direction of frame size I like to see. the highest BW on the bulls we bought was 82#. And he doesn't have much heavier than that in his sale either.

One thing I have thought a lot about, is how can cattle in the last 50 years go from weighing 1000# mature weight (cows), to up to a ton, and the BW's not changed a lot. That doesn't jive with me. What gives there? How can bull breeders that have such different frame scores, have bulls that were born about the same weight?
 
They don't Tap-they sure don't. Alot of bull sale catalogues that come-the birth weights are guessed at. The odd guy will throw a sacrifice big BW bull in there to make you think the rest are true. You know the old saying' You can B.S. the fans but you can't B.S the players.' Kit is one of the most honest guys I've talked to-I was interested in a couple Hereford bulls sight unseen-I described what I was looking for in feet and legs and he told me they probably weren't sound enough for me. Ninety Percent of breeders would of took my money-I've seen some sight unseen bulls that get sent out by some outfits-YIKES. when I'm order buying at a bull sale-I'm working for the buyer not the seller-some guys arn't.
 
Faster Horses: Nice looking bull. Yes it is possible to keep or add performance without adding frame score. But it is also possible to add to mature weight without adding frame as weight is 3 dimensional.
 
Yessir I'm a three dimensional man myself with alot of body density-I was used on a larger framed attractive female with outstanding results.
 
Tap, bw is one of the easiest weights to measure. I weigh every calf. I know others that weigh every calf.

I started using epd's when they were first introduced by the AAA because I bought a performance bull from a long time breeder and had a wreck. I lost 50% of the calves from dystocia. That bull barely broke a ton when I sold him.

I had to just use bulls based on their epd rather than actually be able to get epd's on my cattle as the Canadian association was afraid to join performance testing with the US.

I was the first breeder in Canada to use Traveler, and I pulled plenty of calves from him that weighed less than 85 pounds. They weren't built right. I used 23-4 on cows and had some decent daughters show up. I found adding a second generation of Traveler would drop frame like a stone in a river.

Consistantly using the epd's for BW and YW I was able to increase weaning and yearling weights without getting too big of calves.

I rarely get 1 over 100 pounds now. This years bull pen the 3 best bulls are from 2 yr old heifers with bw of 68, 74, and 79 pounds. The mothers are pretty small but I think they still have some growing to do, but the bulls are very nice. I can breed these kind of cows to a bull with a slightly larger bw epd and still get low bw calves. I have selected some bulls with +4 bw this year to get some different genetics to use.

Careful selection gets those bw's on most any cows. You just have to know how and where to use certian genetics.
 
You pulled calves from Traveller that weighed under 85 pounds-I used him on exotic heifers and got along just fine-I sold the last semen I had on the old bull for $300 a pop a year or so a go. I just found 6 units of the old 3173 bull in my tank if anybody is interested in him-too milky for my deal.
 
Bruce Weeter, who used to be the Angus rep here in Montana, told several of us once that using Traveler 23-4 on Band 105 cows could result in a genetic explosion on birthweights. Maybe that is what happened to you Jason. We used 23-4 and never had any problems ever. I thought he was a good bull in all but disposition.

I think we all have a mental picture of 'the perfect bull' and they just aren't out there. My mental picture has changed as I realize we don't want
the biggest, tallest, stoutest bull in the pen. We never could afford them anyway. :wink:
 
I don't remember the exact bloodlines, but our herd was built on Marshall and Baros bloodlines. The birth weights on Traveler weren't high, just built wrong. Having him in the background will still help moderate bw. Remember stacking genetics.

I weighed a 2 yr old heifer today as she came in to breed just for the heck of it. She was bang on 1200 pounds, in good flesh but certianly not done growing. From eyeballing her, she isn't a large framed cow and would likely fit in with the pictures of other cows I have seen posted here.

I have bought a few trader type cows to play with, one Angus/Simm cross that calved today might be 50 inches tall if she is standing on a pile. She weighed 1450 before she dropped a 90 pound heifer calf. If she was 4 inches shorter her bag would rub the ground. 4 inches more daylight would make it easier for her calf to nurse.

A heck of a lot more attention should be focused on length of body, smoothness and disposition rather than body weight and height.
 
Faster horses said:
Here is a picture of our Kit Pharo bull coming 4 years old.
Took it into the sun, bulls don't always cooperate. This was a forage tested bull that we bought at a fall sale, as I recall. But I better go look that up too. Sure wish I could just remember things...

IMG_0354.jpg
Click to expand...

He sure looks masquline should make for some feminine daughters.he looks to be quite a meat wagon..
 

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