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Kit Pharo's sale

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gbr

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Pharo's sale in Burlington, CO was last Saturday.
I had been planning to go and buy a bull for the last few months, but I must admit after reading all the posts on here a week or so ago about what most of you thought about his program, I wasn't too sure I wanted to go.
Well, I did, and the only negative thing I found about it was having to go through Kansas to get there. I've never been through so much wind in my life. I had a guy lose his pickup and camper in front of me. Somebody ought to get that place some trees or something.
Anyway, back to the bulls. Those of you who said the bulls were starved, stunted, malnourished and whatever else you said, don't know what you're talking about. I saw bulls there that looked as good as the bulls at any registered Black Angus sale I've been to and I've been to quite a few, just ask my wife! Muscled up, fleshy, just like they should look. Sure, they weren't all prettied up like those other sales, and I realize that has a BIG impact on next year's calf crop, but I guess I can't have it all. Some of their sires were there on display and they were some powerful looking animals, just shorter in height. I'm glad to say I was able to get one bought and can't wait to start using him.
It's becoming more and more accepted that big huge mama cows bred to big huge bulls just aren't going to be as cost effective as smaller cows. Leachman's last catalog had a write up saying the same thing. It just makes sense. I just moved from the east coast and brought some cows with me to the mid-west. While my state fair champions were standing at the fence waiting for a handout, the plain ole cows I bought out here were making their way past them saying, "excuse me... pardon me..." while putting away ankle deep green grass. It didn't take long to figure out which were going to be making me the most money.
Moral: if some of you that were criticizing him have never actually been there, maybe you got your cart before your horse because what I saw and what you said made you look pretty bad.
 
Good posting.

Thanks for the observations.

I'd heard similar stories also, and would like to go to the Nebraska sale and look, tho' I can't afford one this year.

How did the forage tested bulls compare to the others?

Thanks for your comments, in advance.
 
What did the bulls average? Did you get a Black Angus bull?

The Cowboy Auction is pretty neat, isn't it? No way is anyone gonna
run you on a bull which is satisfying to say the least.

Nice to hear they were in good shape. The first sale I went to the forage tested bulls didn't look so hot. But people that owned them before sat there and bid $5000 on them and that was a couple of years ago when the market wasn't what it is now.

We have one that I bought because I wanted the bloodline. He has held up well with no problems though he is just an average looking bull. Average suits me just fine.

I saw the Emancipator bull then and he was a meat machine. Kit said he was a frame 2, but he still weighed 1900#. What herd bulls did you get to see? How was the weather while you were there. It had snowed a bunch when we went. That must have been 3 years ago, and we bought the bull 2 years ago. This bull was a Rito F0203 and Papa Durabull.

Post a picture of your Pharo bull if you will. I'd like to see him.
 
gbr said:
Well, I did, and the only negative thing I found about it was having to go through Kansas to get there. I've never been through so much wind in my life. I had a guy lose his pickup and camper in front of me. Somebody ought to get that place some trees or something.
Click to expand...

Yep, he's right, you've got to be tough to travel in KS :wink: :p
 
I was at Kit's fall sale last year. He had two of the sires of the bulls there, Magua and Deja Vu I think, both are on his semen page. Those two boys where thicker than thick. Not very tall but god they were heavily muscled. Not a one of the bulls for sale looked skinny to me, most looked to be in just about perfect shape. I suppose if you put them up next to some of the other bulls I have bought in the past they might have been carrying a little less condition but they were still in real good shape. NO, they are not as pretty as the bulls on the video sale or at some of the big auctions but they aren't starving to death either.


I have never been able to get to a spring sale, too busy calving or having children be born (I don't know why we keep doing it that way) but a couple years back I bought a bull from his spring sale SUS. It was a yearling so it wasn't a forage bull but I picked him up at a place that bought one. The spring bought forage bulls are not as fleshy as the yearlings he is selling at that time but he wasn't emaciated either. Wish I could have made it to the sale but maybe next year.

That was a big negativem driving through Kansas... I think I got 7 mpg driving into that head wind on the way out there dragging that anchor behind my truck... On the way back, fully loaded down I think I got 16-17 with the tail wind.
 
Kit's bulls aren't sold as yearlings when he himself says they weigh somewhere around 700 pounds.

My problem with his type of cattle is it isn't real world realistic.

Check the number 1 problem with cattle at slaughter now, too much fat cover and a lack of red meat yield. This is a direct result of lower frame scores.

While I don't promote those 2000 pound behemouth cows, I like them to have a bit of size.

Records of Angus cows back in the 30's show some cows tipped scales at a ton. These were just grass cows. You never heard of cake or anything on ranches back then.

Kit says his bulls only gain about 3/4 of a pound a day on grass, I like to see a close out on a pen of steers fed that way. Lack of nutrition at a young age affects marbling scores at slaughter, so steers fed like that would have trouble gaining any kind of premium.

Guys up here are already complaining the Angus cattle have gotten too small and some are looking at the exotics again even though good Angus steers are topping the sales. The balance of low birth weights and good growth is a delicate balance, extremes of size either big or small isn't realistic.
 
Learned some things from your post, Jason. But, excuse me, Kit does sell some yearlings at his sale. They look good too. I've seen them from people that bought them. Plus, at the sale I attended.

I think the FORAGE TESTED bulls aren't sold as yearlings. The yearlings that are planned for the sale are fed in a lot.

I have the catalog, but can't put my hands on it right at the moment.
 
In whose world Jason-good forage cattle explode on feed-while the four legged graineries often can't cut it on grass-so many guys calve early-lot breed their cows then chirp about how their cows can thrive on grass. It's funny that Ohlde genetics that Kit uses are supposed to be the death of the Angus breed but if A bucket outfit uses them they're the savior. Why not give Kit a call-I garantee he'll open your eyes or at least make you think. I've heard for the last 20 years my cattle were too small from every auction mart pimp around but I still close out 13 weight steers in the feedlot-if I were you I'd go down for a visit and check it out first hand-I haven't seen too many of Kit's customers on here crying the blues-which should tell us something.
 
The red Angus bull I bought two years ago was about 1000 pounds as a yearling.. His mom was a 950 or so pound cow and his adjustedweaning weight was 600. The yearlings are put through a short feed ratio developed to gain some size to make them ready as yearlings. I can't remember if it is 2 or 3 months but I know they take them off feed a month or so before the sale. I beleive they are feed to gain 2.5 pounds a day whith some gaining more and others gaining less.

Many the the bulls in the sale catalog that I had a few years ago gained near a pound a day on the forage test. I can't find that catalog and he no longer mentions weight gain during test except in a ratio.

He has three sales a year now, with the one in the fall being all 1.5 year old forage bulls while the two in the spring are mixture of yearling bulls, 2 year old forage bulls and 1.5 year old fall born forage bulls. Some of the ones sold in the fall are more like 1.25 year olds too as they are June born.

Its what you want to do with your herd I guess. I would prefer to drag my average cow size down from where it is now. I sold several cows that If I put in real good flesh would have been 1700 pounds. I know the neighbor I bought the cows from sold one from the same lot that I got mine that weighed in at just shy of a ton. I would prefer, and am working on, getting my cows down to 1100 pounds, give or take 100. Not going to tell people in Canada or people out west or even people down the road how to do their business. If it works for them fine by me.
 
in defense of my state, I would like to point out the reason we have wind here...it is because Oklahoma sucks and Nebraska blows.

and we have trees, they are all logged out, sawed up and put into framed buildings....we call them bars or taverns, depends on what side of the state you are in.
 
Northern Rancher said:
In whose world Jason-good forage cattle explode on feed-while the four legged graineries often can't cut it on grass-so many guys calve early-lot breed their cows then chirp about how their cows can thrive on grass. It's funny that Ohlde genetics that Kit uses are supposed to be the death of the Angus breed but if A bucket outfit uses them they're the savior. Why not give Kit a call-I garantee he'll open your eyes or at least make you think. I've heard for the last 20 years my cattle were too small from every auction mart pimp around but I still close out 13 weight steers in the feedlot-if I were you I'd go down for a visit and check it out first hand-I haven't seen too many of Kit's customers on here crying the blues-which should tell us something.
Click to expand...

I agree that forage based cattle are a necessity. My herd is forage based. I only feed a bit of grain to the cows if economics dictate it.

I have seen your pictures NR and your cows aren't no frame 2. Heck maybe Kit's cattle aren't even that. Personally I can't imagine a bull at 12 months being 43 inches tall.

Your steers are fine at 1300 pounds. That is where they need to be, or slightly bigger. You retain ownership and know how to manage them and it fits well. If they were fed sooner would they yield the same? Maybe not but it is mute because you do what works for you.

Those that assume a smaller cow will be cheaper to run aren't seeing the big picture. If you have a cow that is free to keep but has calves that there is no market for what is the point? Besides I have yet to see a smaller type cow that milks heavy feed for free. Milk production is probably more expensive than beef production.
 
My nitrogen supplier says that Kit feeds a "little" grain but it seems no one knows what a "little" means How much truth to this I don't know, but it is a question that I have.
 
I went for a 2 yr old black and came home with a red yearling. I don't know, just thought I'd try one. I've got some pictures, but the Kodak Share program doesn't want to share right now. If my wife can get it straightened out I'll post some. He is by Lancelot, had a yrlng wgt of 884.

I didn't see a whole lot of difference in price between the yrlngs and the forage tested. The highest one I saw was a fall '04 red that went for $12,250. He was the talk of the sale before it ever got started. Without getting out a calculator, blacks were probably averaging $4700-5000, reds a little higher, maybe $5800-6000.

I bought the first one that went under $3500. I thought I was prepared to go higher, just couldn't get my arm to cooperate. This one came in, looked good and they were retaining a semen interest in him so they must have liked him some too. He had a base price of $3000, which was the highest of the base prices, and I got him for $3250. It was like the good Lord said "there he is, get your hand up before I change my mind!"

The sires there were Lancelot, Magua, and Deja Vu. They all looked pretty good, you just had to look down over the fence to see them good.
 
gbr I have not seen your bull, so I am not talking about your situation. It seems to me on bulls that we are not sure if they will ever make it or not, and add that one sentence"retaning 1/3 semn intrest", ther is always someone out ther that think's he is the next all star and pay twice what he is worth. If Kit is as good at marketing as all the propaganda on his web site leads on then I have to wander!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I have a Lancelot Brother here, 3/4 brother I think.. The reason they probably wanted to retain some interest in him is this is the first sale that they have him in.. Lancelot was the "Other" bull I wanted to get. He sold at the second sale and for more than I payed for mine... I guess I got lucky because I thought I was nuts for buying the one I bought but I decided that if I was going to buy one I wanted to buy one I REALLY wanted, there were 3-4 that I really wanted that year

A 12K bull at a Pharo Sale? Wow.. I think the high one at the sale I was at was 8k... I think.. I know how you are feeling about jumping on a bull that you like because for someone reason it slips through the cracks. I think my favorite bull I bought at this falls sale was one that I had marked as interested in but not overally excited about because I thought he would go higher... I watched him come up and the interest wasn't there. I raised my hand and got him, couldn't be happier with him so far.

Wish I had been able to go to the sale. Maybe next year, probably this fall.
 
It tickles me that it seems like most of the people who are cussing Kit are either trying to sell their own bulls and don't like the competion, or have never seen any of his cattle and are just going by what their "friends" have told them. :wink:
 
Jason when have I ever claimed to have frame 2 cows-the best advertisement for Kit Pharo is the comments of his competitors-if he's such a retard why not just let him hang himself with his own rope.
 
I know you haven't claimed your cattle are frame 2 NR, Kit has been pushing it.

The same reason you tell everyone about your EXT experience, I have to try to save some from making a mistake like lowering the frame on Angus or other breeds to novelty status.

I am third generation in this business and have pictures of my granddad buying the reserve champion bull at Calgary that was a beltbuckle tall bull. It took years to get some decent size into them without sacrificing the traits of easy calving and correct structure.

I have experimented with using some older genetics to see how they compare to what we have now, I don't want to go back. Raising cattle that are slaughter fat at 800 pounds isn't a good thing.

If the cows get so short their calf has to be a snake to nurse, who is going to like that?
 

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