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Kit Pharo's sale

Jason, if you would look at the sale book the typical bull is going to be about frame 4 (these would be the yearling bulls)... Yes, he has one bull on AI that is a frame 2.5 (OCC Emancipate) and some that are frame 3 but I am talking about the sale catalog. Heck he has a Tarentase bull that is a frame 6 in his semen catalog. His favorite bull of all time is a frame 4.5. When I read the literature I get from him he is not pushing a frame 2 at all, in fact he has warned me personally about going too small.

The frame scores are useless on his forage bulls and he will flat out tell you that. I still have some "big" bulls here too. No more of the Frame 6+ maineXangus bulls that we started the place up with but plenty big just the same.
 
Well sunshine frame issues are alot more easy to deal with than cows that are completely nuts-I've yet to see a cow too short for the calf to nurse-I'm seen some long legged exotic and angus giraffes too dumb to tip their head down-I'm pretty sure if you feed good straw you can get Kit's cattle past 800 lbs at slaughter. Like I said before the more his fellow Angus breeders disparage his cattle-the more commercial guys want to check them out. There are a hell of alot of Angus cattle out there that are too big than are too small-I don't think one breeder in the middle of no where Colorado will ruin the breed.
 
Jason the only thing I'll comment on, since this BIG vs. SMALL issue is getting really repititious, is your comment about lots of people 'up here' thinking Angus have gotten too small already. Who and Where? I get around to a few functions, and I do hear people say we can't get cattle too big, or we can't get them too small, but I have NEVER heard anyone say that Angus are, right now, too small. I believe it to be the other way around, if anything at all.

There are far too many Angus - AND OTHER BREEDS - out there with too much daylight under them - STILL - and that daylight don't weigh much going across the scale; grass, silage, straw, water, snow or whatever.
 
PureCountry said:
Jason the only thing I'll comment on, since this BIG vs. SMALL issue is getting really repititious, is your comment about lots of people 'up here' thinking Angus have gotten too small already. Who and Where? I get around to a few functions, and I do hear people say we can't get cattle too big, or we can't get them too small, but I have NEVER heard anyone say that Angus are, right now, too small. I believe it to be the other way around, if anything at all.

There are far too many Angus - AND OTHER BREEDS - out there with too much daylight under them - STILL - and that daylight don't weigh much going across the scale; grass, silage, straw, water, snow or whatever.
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This reminds me of the time I went to brand inspect a load of purebred limmy heifers a feller was selling. I checked them for brands as they were running them on ando ff from the scale. They were big, tall strechy things. When they found out what they were weighing, the guy who raised them said, "Man, I sure thought they were going to weight more than that!"

I had thought that also and after I took a little time and study'd on them, I figured out why they didn't weigh so much. Tall, but no depth or width. We had them pegged at 200 lbs more than they acctually weighed. Nope, long legs don't add many pounds. :wink:

Deep adds pounds. :lol:
 
Tall deep long and wide adds the most pounds.

I visited with an auction barn owner just last week, he told me about one of his customers complaining about the little pin assed calves he was getting from using the super easy calving bulls. He might have been using Red Angus, that wasn't made clear, but none the less he was going back to a bigger calving bull.

Right now the light birth weight bulls are what I am selling most, but the guys still are looking at the biggest low birth weight bulls.

One guy looking wants very low bw because he is using Maine Anjou as a cross to keep some size. He could just use a bigger Angus and drop the Maine, but that is his choice.

Overall cattle from frame 6-8 are functional and will work. The difference in them is 4 inches, 51 to 55 inches tall at a year for bulls, 49-53 for heifers.

One old fella told me he was looking for cattle that grew like weeds until 18 months then who cares if they never get any bigger. A frame 8 heifer at 18 months is 56.25 inches...not a bad size for a cow.

The smallest cows I have are the hardest doing cattle. They milk themselves thin and eat as much or more than the bigger cows. I would rather have an extra 200 pounds of body size to draw on than be right at the threshold to get them bred back if the weather is bad.

For the record, the average weight of Angus cows now is 1350 pounds. Mine are probably average 1400.(Source American Angus Association).
 
Jason said:
Tall deep long and wide adds the most pounds.
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Most pounds...therein lies the problem. You're talking pounds, boy, when you should be talking profit. If you sell breeding stock to other cattlemen, you should be just as concerned about THEIR profitability as your own, and not so concerned about the pounds.
 
Frame 8 tooo funny-4 inches of worthless air-that went out with disco for crying out loud. You show me a frame 8 that quits growing at 18 monthes and I'll eat her hide hooves and tail. I thought those big old dinosaurs were extinct.
 
This is an interesting topic for sure. It was nearly ten years ago I was having a conversation with a couple of good cattlemen. I said that I could maintain 1300 lb. cows with a frame 6. They were concerned that a frame 6 was too small. Ten years later I am having trouble keeping my cows under 1400 with frame 6 bulls. I have had to find cattle that are shorter in their growth curve and faster maturing. Those big framed buggers sure as heck won't shorten the growth curve any and fertility is more than marginal in my experience. Most lower birth weight cattle tend to have a shorter growth curve.


As far as calving ease cattle being pin-hipped. That is true and false. Plenty of calving ease genetics that have enough muscle for me. You do need to look at the cattle you are breeding and not just use epds.
 
PureCountry said:
Jason said:
Tall deep long and wide adds the most pounds.
Click to expand...

Most pounds...therein lies the problem. You're talking pounds, boy, when you should be talking profit. If you sell breeding stock to other cattlemen, you should be just as concerned about THEIR profitability as your own, and not so concerned about the pounds.
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Don't pounds equal profit if put on in an economical fashion?

If I can raise a 600 pound calf cheaper than you can raise a 550 weight doesn't that mean I made more $$$?

No one has adressed the original statement about a yearling height of 43 inches. That is a claim on a bull being promoted.

I will wager just like birth weights and cow weights, most ranchers have never ran their cattle over a scale, most have never measured their height. What's the point? A cow is a good cow if she produces more than she costs to maintain.
 
Every rancher who sells cows know what they're cows weigh don't they-we ran our cows over the scale at weaning several times-the best cow weaned 63 percent of her weight-the worst was 28 percent. I guess if these smaller framed cattle are going to be the ruination of the breed you got nothing to worry about. Most commercial ranchers aren't quite as dumb about their cattle as most purebred guys would like to think.
 
Northern Rancher said:
Every rancher who sells cows know what they're cows weigh don't they-we ran our cows over the scale at weaning several times-the best cow weaned 63 percent of her weight-the worst was 28 percent. I guess if these smaller framed cattle are going to be the ruination of the breed you got nothing to worry about. Most commercial ranchers aren't quite as dumb about their cattle as most purebred guys would like to think.
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Lots of ranches never sell cows except for opens. If that cow is older and dry, just off grass and stood over night after a truck ride to town, isn't her weight going to be a lot lower than if she is heavy bred, full of feed and putting on weight for her next calf?

The reason I post these questions is to make people think. You can't just label every cow that is frame 6 or 7 too big, the same as every cow frame 5 isn't too small. Some cows that weigh 1300 pounds in one area can weigh 1800 in an area where the grass is more plentiful.

For example I sold a direct daughter of Traveler 23-4 into Mississippi. Here her sisters weighed in that 1350-1450 range in what I considered good flesh. Down there that cow weighs in at 1895 pounds just on grass, she stays fat calf on or off. Her frame was about a 6 at a year. She is the first one to stop eating and lay down, she maintains her weight on an average amount of feed. She raises a 700 pound calf on the same resources that they get 500 pound calves from some native cows that weigh in at 1100 pounds. The % isn't as impressive, but her calves sure are.

Is that cow too big? Her weight says so, but the bottom line says no.
 
Jason said:
Northern Rancher said:
Every rancher who sells cows know what they're cows weigh don't they-we ran our cows over the scale at weaning several times-the best cow weaned 63 percent of her weight-the worst was 28 percent. I guess if these smaller framed cattle are going to be the ruination of the breed you got nothing to worry about. Most commercial ranchers aren't quite as dumb about their cattle as most purebred guys would like to think.
Click to expand...

Lots of ranches never sell cows except for opens. If that cow is older and dry, just off grass and stood over night after a truck ride to town, isn't her weight going to be a lot lower than if she is heavy bred, full of feed and putting on weight for her next calf?

The reason I post these questions is to make people think. You can't just label every cow that is frame 6 or 7 too big, the same as every cow frame 5 isn't too small. Some cows that weigh 1300 pounds in one area can weigh 1800 in an area where the grass is more plentiful.

For example I sold a direct daughter of Traveler 23-4 into Mississippi. Here her sisters weighed in that 1350-1450 range in what I considered good flesh. Down there that cow weighs in at 1895 pounds just on grass, she stays fat calf on or off. Her frame was about a 6 at a year. She is the first one to stop eating and lay down, she maintains her weight on an average amount of feed. She raises a 700 pound calf on the same resources that they get 500 pound calves from some native cows that weigh in at 1100 pounds. The % isn't as impressive, but her calves sure are.

Is that cow too big? Her weight says so, but the bottom line says no.
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A bovine must eat 2% of her body weight just to maintain herself.

So you'll never get me to believe that a larger cow will eat less than a smaller cow and stay in good flesh.
 
Most ranchers have an assortment of cow ages when they cull-if your cows aren't fat coming off grass-you got problems sunshine. The old cowboy cull of sorting any cows not milky at branding will clean up most troubles peoiple have. Take those big cows and run-I'll just crawl along up here with my itty bitty 12 weights lol.
 
I sold 20 breed cows this past year. I sell a few every year down at the auction. Most folks with over 100 cows do around here. There are the ones that fail to wean a good calf, whose bag is starting to go, who tried to eat someone for lunch or is just an over all pain in the arse. By doing this most folks get a good idea of how much their cows weigh. I never look at what my opens weigh because we generally take those and get them fat on grain before selling them, especially if the corn is cheap. They can be very deceiving.

AS Jinglebob said, a cow has to consume 2-3% of its weight a day on a dry matter basis or it is going to feel hungry. I would much prefer having 1100# cows that are eating 22-33 pounds a day vs the 1800 pound cow eating 36-54#'s a day. I'm stubborn I guess but I was always taught abought the effieciency of the 1000 pound black baldy when I lived in Montana. Maybe that has been drilled into my head or maybe it is seeing my smaller cows breeding back quicker and weaning a calf of comparable size to my larger ones, I don't know. Actually, I wish I had more 1100# cows, as it is I have too many that are 1500#+ at calving.
 
I have some comments to add here, be they worthy or not.

We weigh our cows at home on our scale before we sell any at the auction. Always, the cows we sell weigh 100 lbs. more at home than they do the day they sell. Call it shrink, call it whatever you want, doesn't matter, they weigh more at home.

We ratio our calves weight to our cows weight. But you have to be careful doing that. You CANNOT ratio a calf that is 9 months old and one that is 6 months, you must ratio them at 205 days to get the real picture. Adding days to age makes calves weigh more usually, unless a storm hits them, so you need to do it giving the calves the 205 day age.


I'm worried about Angus cows getting too big, for sure. If you buy a bull from an 1800# cow and you breed that bull to your 1400-1500# cow, heck to even a 1200# cow, and you keep a replacement out of her, WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN?

What I think happens is you add more mature weight to your cowherd.
I don't think that is any suprise, I think we've all seen it. This is what Kit Pharo calls 'frame creep.' Whether you like him or not, some of what he says carries some real merit. Certainly food for thought.

When we moved to Montana from Wyoming in 1975, I said we had the biggest horses and the littlest cows. Not anymore.
 
One other little thing. In the 80's a fellow we knew bred his Limousin cows to Chianina bulls. The day they were weighed, they didn't press the scale down much and you could see right under their bellies as they went down the alley. He said, "Hummm. I don't think I will try that again."

No kidding, those calves didn't make 500 lbs.

Air under the belly doesn't weigh anything.
 
As we have increased performance in the last 20 years we have increased mature cow size for sure. I consider keeping mature cow size in line and maintaining performance (at and acceptable level) the next big challenge in the industry. Because mature cow size is highly heritable we can make some big inroads if we chose to do so. I think there is a happy medium here but most commercial cattlemen that I know want small cows but when they select their bulls they pick one of the biggest highest performing bulls in the offering. I used to be this way but have had to change my way of thinking.


I want cattle that grow fast but when they hit 12-14 months of age they had better be done.
 
Faster horses said:
I have some comments to add here, be they worthy or not.

We weigh our cows at home on our scale before we sell any at the auction. Always, the cows we sell weigh 100 lbs. more at home than they do the day they sell. Call it shrink, call it whatever you want, doesn't matter, they weigh more at home.

We ratio our calves weight to our cows weight. But you have to be careful doing that. You CANNOT ratio a calf that is 9 months old and one that is 6 months, you must ratio them at 205 days to get the real picture. Adding days to age makes calves weigh more usually, unless a storm hits them, so you need to do it giving the calves the 205 day age.


I'm worried about Angus cows getting too big, for sure. If you buy a bull from an 1800# cow and you breed that bull to your 1400-1500# cow, heck to even a 1200# cow, and you keep a replacement out of her, WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN?

What I think happens is you add more mature weight to your cowherd.
I don't think that is any suprise, I think we've all seen it. This is what Kit Pharo calls 'frame creep.' Whether you like him or not, some of what he says carries some real merit. Certainly food for thought.

When we moved to Montana from Wyoming in 1975, I said we had the biggest horses and the littlest cows. Not anymore.
Click to expand...

Why must you ratio them at 205 days? You would be better off averaging them to the average age of the calves not 205. So if you wean your calves Sep 1 and they are 180 days old adjust them to 180 not 205.
 
Any day will work, but they all must be figured at the same age. I guess 205 came to mind because that is the days they use for ww/ EPD's.

Can you average the days? I'm not sure about that, but perhaps so.
I know the birthdate of our calves and I know exactly how old they are. I figure the calf wt. to cow wt. individually when we precondiditon because we have a scale under our chute.

I suppose in your case you mean if you weigh them all and ratio them as the whole bunch but not as individuals. My mind works slowly anymore, so I would have to think about this. Feel free to convince me. :wink:

If our first calf was born March 25, and the last one was born May 1, the average date of birth would be April 12th, or is that correct? Most of the calves are born in the first heat cycle. Guess I am not sure how you pick an average age, but I'm sure willing to learn.

Went back and re-read your post. So if we sell them Oct. 10th, the oldest would be 198 days old, but the youngest would only be 163 days old.
I guess I don't like 'averages' much cuz it can cover up things. But I will wait for your response because I am likely missing something.
 

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