With the devaluation of the US dollar more feeder cattle from canada are going south since before BSE. That doesn't really seem to make sense. Canadian calves should be too expensive. But you need to hear the rest of the story. The reasons US cattle feeders are buying up calves is because of lower labor costs and US subsidies for corn so that corn prices are alot lower relative canadian feed barley prices. In fact canadian feedlots are selling barley and buying corn and making a tidy profit. Why isn't r-calf hollering about this? Isn't it depressing US calf prices ? I thought r-calf didn't want more canadian cattle crossing the border going south. Ahh, i see it isn't a problem when US producers are making extra profits from canadian calves. It amazes me this forum is supposed to be about what affects cattle prices and so many are stuck on rules that could be and things that could happen rather than facts like this . How long till some r-calfer complains about too many canadian UTM cattle going south ?
Largest impact on cattle prices?
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Sandhusker
Well-known member
QUESTION said:
A corn subsidy is making corn cheaper for feeders?
You see we don't have subsidies for grain in canada, it is worth what the market will pay. While the US continues to subsidze grain production and inadvertantly distorting production and the market. I find it particularly hilarious that the US ethanol production program is already failing as new ethanol plants are ready to come on line but the cost of producing a gallon of ethanol will be more than they can sell it for. So they sit idle. Anyone who has looked into it knew the US could not compete with ethanol production in south america using sugar cane as a feed stock and even thought ol' GW was told it wasn't feasible long term he is the decider. and he decided the US would be a world leader in ethanol production too bad the world doesn't work like that. Comm'on sandh why no complaints about ten times the number of steers coming in from canada compared to last year, hasn't it depressed your prices to the point US ranchers are giving US calves away? Isn't the sky falling in on the US cow / calf producer ? What no problems with all these canadian calves coming in and polluting the US with BSE :lol: Maybe the ones from the montana border in southern SK and Ab are bring in Bluetongue :roll: It is too funny how if r-calfers are putting $ in their pockets so they stop complaining about canadian cattle. It tells me what r-calf is really about.
Sandhusker
Well-known member
I'm not too excited because I don't think you know what you're talking about again.
Subsisdized corn would RAISE the price of corn, making it more expensive for feeders.
We don't want South American ethanol because the idea behind the whole ethanol issue is not that we really want to burn it, it's that we want to produce more of our energy domestically.
Subsisdized corn would RAISE the price of corn, making it more expensive for feeders.
We don't want South American ethanol because the idea behind the whole ethanol issue is not that we really want to burn it, it's that we want to produce more of our energy domestically.
Do you know how a subsidy works ? Your government pays the corn farmer so he can sell the corn for less. How does that make the price of corn go up? :???: :roll: It does the reverse. So with cheap labor and cheap feed , high canadian dollar close to ten times the number of steers from canada are heading stateside, again why no complaints it is funny how when more dollars go in a r-calf members pocket they stop complaining be it about hispanics or foreign cattle coming into the US.
As for the ethanol program be realistic the cost to the US of a domestic ethanol industry is not viable but with the need for fertilizer it helps big oil SUPRIZE!!!!!!! Just another program to line the pockets of GW buddies with under the guize of enviromentalism. Bet the good ol' boys are chuckling about that.
As for the ethanol program be realistic the cost to the US of a domestic ethanol industry is not viable but with the need for fertilizer it helps big oil SUPRIZE!!!!!!! Just another program to line the pockets of GW buddies with under the guize of enviromentalism. Bet the good ol' boys are chuckling about that.
QUESTION said:
Question, I believe you have this wrong. The subsidies for corn are in the form of price supports which protects farmers when they do a good job and over produce. They are price floors.
Ethanol is sucking up corn right now causing corn prices to rise. I agree with you that ethanol isn't really a long term solution to our energy mix and often costs more than the products produced when all costs are considered.
If you want ethanol, BUY JACK DANIELS!
Sandhusker
Well-known member
QUESTION said:
You need to learn how the system works down here. The subsidy is a LDP, if prices fall below a certain level, the LDP makes up the difference between the desired price and market price. It's generally set so the LDP and the market price add up to around $2. Take a look at the spot market on corn. It's nowhere near $2 and hasn't been for a while. The LDP now is ZERO. That means NO subsidy from the US government. Is there some other entity subsidizing corn for our feeders?
Today, depending on where you buy it, corn is $3.25 - $3.50. You tell me how much of that price is from a subsidy.
Sand H i sold a tri load of feed barley for 4.04 /bu last week i had locked it in more than a month ago delivered direct to the feedlot. Now in southern Ab. feed barley from the feedlots is hitting the market because the price of corn delivered to Ab. is quite a bit lower priced. I forgot US producers do not have subsidies :roll: . They are programs under the farm bill with other names. Loan guarentee programs for example as well as direct producer payments.Please read other threads in this forum about all the corn stock piled and not being used for ethanol even some rotting. why would producers over produce like that - simple subsidies direct and indirect even if you have different names for the programs. Still how come no complaining about all the canadian steers going south. I guess r-calfers too busy making money on canadian cattle. :wink: Too bad money buys ethics in r-calfland. Wonder what the r-calf membership will think when they hear a director has a feedlot full of canadian steers? Do r-calfer have to take some type of hypocritic oath when then get a membeship it would sure make sense.
Sandhusker
Well-known member
QUESTION said:
Money does buy ethics. That's why you think we should import your cattle inspite of the fact that you can't refute the claims that we would be importing disease.
If corn is rotting on the ground, why is it still well over $3 when it's been around $2 for the last 10 years? You need to compare today's corn prices with prices the last 10 years and again try to tell me all about our cheap corn. I'll challenge you again to even take a wild guess how much subsidy dollars are in that $3.
If you knew anything about corn prices, you would know why we're producing so much corn this year.
By the way, Question, the reason cattle are not as competitive (you will be getting a lower price) because of the fall of the dollar.
Look at the dollar, I know you know it well.
The dollar slide means that foreign goods cost more in the U.S. and that domestic goods are worth a better buy for foreigners.
Would you like to guess how much of a hit Canada producers are taking because of the rising dollar?
These are the factors I have spoken about before that are out of domestic producer's hands. I personally believe these risks are real, that they are uncontrollable by the producer, and are a result of national fiscal and monetary policy.
I don't like it that producers, whether in Canada or the U.S. have to compete in a "global market" that can swing not based on production costs, efficiencies, or of the things producers have control of, but on national fiscal and monetary policy. It is a hidden tax on producers!
It is the claim against China where they subsidize their currency.
I can tell you that things are probably going to get worse for Canada's producer's purchasing power in their own country because of these factors.
Look at the dollar, I know you know it well.
The dollar slide means that foreign goods cost more in the U.S. and that domestic goods are worth a better buy for foreigners.
Would you like to guess how much of a hit Canada producers are taking because of the rising dollar?
These are the factors I have spoken about before that are out of domestic producer's hands. I personally believe these risks are real, that they are uncontrollable by the producer, and are a result of national fiscal and monetary policy.
I don't like it that producers, whether in Canada or the U.S. have to compete in a "global market" that can swing not based on production costs, efficiencies, or of the things producers have control of, but on national fiscal and monetary policy. It is a hidden tax on producers!
It is the claim against China where they subsidize their currency.
I can tell you that things are probably going to get worse for Canada's producer's purchasing power in their own country because of these factors.
SandH look at the feed coversion charts for corn compared to barley. And with $3 corn and $ 4 barley tell me corn isn't cheap , You would think you would be better with numbers. SH please show me the UTM canadian animals that have been processed since 2003 in the US that are BSE positive. Oh right ZERO. So with UTM cattle you would not be importing any disease. So you can quit insinuating canadian cattle all have been exposed to or carry BSE. Maybe the whole smear and scare tactic works for US politicians but it doesn't work here. As far as corn rotting check other post and threads on here i believe i also saw soybeans were rotting in a pile as well. As far as traditional corn prices you are living now , not in the past. As for the reasons for the increased production and price of corn it comes down to the ethanol push your government was backing a backdoor sudsidy that is why you have $3 corn right now.
Tex, I do agree the american peso will continue to fall and things will get tougher on the canadian cattleman. Your US buyers will contiune to come up here because they have cheaper labour and feed at their disposal, i still don't hear the r-calfers complaining amazing how that works. Astonishing how the complaining about NAFTA stops when r-calf cattle feeders can take advantage of it. Now it is a trade deal. I haven't seen so much flip-flopping since i was ice fishing last winter.
Tex, I do agree the american peso will continue to fall and things will get tougher on the canadian cattleman. Your US buyers will contiune to come up here because they have cheaper labour and feed at their disposal, i still don't hear the r-calfers complaining amazing how that works. Astonishing how the complaining about NAFTA stops when r-calf cattle feeders can take advantage of it. Now it is a trade deal. I haven't seen so much flip-flopping since i was ice fishing last winter.
QUESTION said:
Question, how many rcalfers have you talked to?
I don't necessarily believe that Canadian labor is cheaper and that is why you can have cheaper cattle. All producers of commodities who have middlemen with control are price takers, not price makers. The labor issue seems otherwise.
In a cost analysis, the costs of production like land, cattle, and other capital requirements are much bigger factors than the labor.
If it were labor, we would all be buying our meat from China.
RobertMac
Well-known member
Sandhusker, you must really miss ole ~SH~!!! 
:shock: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll:
:shock: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll:Sandhusker
Well-known member
QUESTION said:
Your arguement is corn is cheaper than barley. That doesn't necessarily mean corn is cheap. Corn is higher now than it has been for a long time. It's also not being subsidized at these prices, so claiming US feeders are benefitting from cheap subsidized corn isn't anywhere close to being accurate.
We haven't found any BSE positive UTM cattle from Canada because they haven't been testing them. If we did, then you guys would bitch that we aren't testing the right ones. However, the new rule concerns OTM cattle, and you have found positives among them. The new rule would let them in. Deny that if you can.
Name ONE R-CALF feeder who is buying Canadian calves.
Sandhusker
Well-known member
RobertMac said:Sandhusker, you must really miss ole ~SH~!!!
Seems somebody is always willing to take his place with the same logic.
Trying to make a point with you is like using a cutting horse to keep a calf cornered, you are always trying to get away from what is being asked and take the thread your own way, it seem the only way to get you to anwswer a question it to make you think you asked it. On the world market and even in the US corn is cheaper than barley. Pleases explain how that make corn not cheap to feed relative to barley? And as much as you want to deny it farmers are getting subsidies thru the old US farm bill the money is delivered under another named program. Thus corn was over produced so yes US feeders are feeding subsidized corn.
Since the washington cow how many canadian bovines in the US have been found to havbe BSE OTM or UTM ? the answer is still ZERO. Even with US testers fraudulently testing US UTM's and calling them OTM's.
Here is the rub,i cannot get a r-calf membership list as only members can get it and the want to keep their membership secret so people do not know who they are dealing with i do know of people who say they are members and who have been in the past and could be right now buying canadian feeders but i can't get to a membership list to prove they are members of r-calf. Kinda like sleeper cells for al queda. Both are really proud of being part of their group but only infront of other members.
With all the canadian steers hitting the market and going stateside why isn't your US domestic price falling like a stone? Will it be the same with OTM's if they start going stateside in Nov. Which i doubt will happen as i expect r-calf will file an injunction to slow the inevitable. :roll:
Oh well i personally feel the canadian dollar being worth more than the american peso is a major influence as is the price of feed and labour on calf prices. Samer old - same old ; US cattle feeders want more canadian cattle as they seem to be more profitable than US born , bred and fed cattle otherwise why would they be coming upto canada and buying so many? If rule 2 allows OTM breeding stock i can send down some of these good canadian cattle for you guys so you can use canadian genetics and improve your cattle :wink:
Since the washington cow how many canadian bovines in the US have been found to havbe BSE OTM or UTM ? the answer is still ZERO. Even with US testers fraudulently testing US UTM's and calling them OTM's.
Here is the rub,i cannot get a r-calf membership list as only members can get it and the want to keep their membership secret so people do not know who they are dealing with i do know of people who say they are members and who have been in the past and could be right now buying canadian feeders but i can't get to a membership list to prove they are members of r-calf. Kinda like sleeper cells for al queda. Both are really proud of being part of their group but only infront of other members.
With all the canadian steers hitting the market and going stateside why isn't your US domestic price falling like a stone? Will it be the same with OTM's if they start going stateside in Nov. Which i doubt will happen as i expect r-calf will file an injunction to slow the inevitable. :roll:
Oh well i personally feel the canadian dollar being worth more than the american peso is a major influence as is the price of feed and labour on calf prices. Samer old - same old ; US cattle feeders want more canadian cattle as they seem to be more profitable than US born , bred and fed cattle otherwise why would they be coming upto canada and buying so many? If rule 2 allows OTM breeding stock i can send down some of these good canadian cattle for you guys so you can use canadian genetics and improve your cattle :wink:
Sandhusker
Well-known member
Q, " On the world market and even in the US corn is cheaper than barley. Pleases explain how that make corn not cheap to feed relative to barley? "
I didn't say corn ws cheaper than barley. I'm saying that compared to historical prices, corn is not cheap. Maybe you should tell a US feeder how cheap that corn is that he is buying.
Q, "And as much as you want to deny it farmers are getting subsidies thru the old US farm bill the money is delivered under another named program."
Name it.
Q, "Thus corn was over produced so yes US feeders are feeding subsidized corn.
How the heck do you equate production with subsidization? How can you argue that corn has been overproduced when the current price is half again it's 10 year average? I'll ask you again, Mr. Cutting horse, how much of that $3.25/bu comes from a subsidy?
Q, "Since the washington cow how many canadian bovines in the US have been found to havbe BSE OTM or UTM ? the answer is still ZERO. Even with US testers fraudulently testing US UTM's and calling them OTM's. "
Under the new rule, what would prevent your last 5 cases from entering our country?
Q, "Here is the rub,i cannot get a r-calf membership list as only members can get it and the want to keep their membership secret so people do not know who they are dealing with i do know of people who say they are members and who have been in the past and could be right now buying canadian feeders but i can't get to a membership list to prove they are members of r-calf."
Here is the rub, you can't get a membership list from ANY organization. :roll: Try to get one from the CCA.
Q, "With all the canadian steers hitting the market and going stateside why isn't your US domestic price falling like a stone?"
We have lost a good $5 the last month or so, are you taking credit for that?
I didn't say corn ws cheaper than barley. I'm saying that compared to historical prices, corn is not cheap. Maybe you should tell a US feeder how cheap that corn is that he is buying.
Q, "And as much as you want to deny it farmers are getting subsidies thru the old US farm bill the money is delivered under another named program."
Name it.
Q, "Thus corn was over produced so yes US feeders are feeding subsidized corn.
How the heck do you equate production with subsidization? How can you argue that corn has been overproduced when the current price is half again it's 10 year average? I'll ask you again, Mr. Cutting horse, how much of that $3.25/bu comes from a subsidy?
Q, "Since the washington cow how many canadian bovines in the US have been found to havbe BSE OTM or UTM ? the answer is still ZERO. Even with US testers fraudulently testing US UTM's and calling them OTM's. "
Under the new rule, what would prevent your last 5 cases from entering our country?
Q, "Here is the rub,i cannot get a r-calf membership list as only members can get it and the want to keep their membership secret so people do not know who they are dealing with i do know of people who say they are members and who have been in the past and could be right now buying canadian feeders but i can't get to a membership list to prove they are members of r-calf."
Here is the rub, you can't get a membership list from ANY organization. :roll: Try to get one from the CCA.
Q, "With all the canadian steers hitting the market and going stateside why isn't your US domestic price falling like a stone?"
We have lost a good $5 the last month or so, are you taking credit for that?
A
Anonymous
Guest
Sandhusker said:RobertMac said:Sandhusker, you must really miss ole ~SH~!!!
Seems somebody is always willing to take his place with the same logic.
While I didn't agree with most of old SH's cattle marketing theories or politics-- at least he had some knowledge of the cattle industry, some arguments for his reasoning that he tried to make into FACTS, and usually when proven wrong admitted it....And he was man enough to put his name and who he was behind what he said....
Questionable has yet to show any credibility on any of his so called FACTS-- has been proven wrong multiple times, has shown little knowledge of anything involving cattle or marketing- wants to hide in anonymity and doesn't even know where he lives :roll: :wink: :lol: :lol:
katrina
Well-known member
Oldtimer said:Sandhusker said:RobertMac said:Sandhusker, you must really miss ole ~SH~!!!
Seems somebody is always willing to take his place with the same logic.
While I didn't agree with most of old SH's cattle marketing theories or politics-- at least he had some knowledge of the cattle industry, some arguments for his reasoning that he tried to make into FACTS, and usually when proven wrong admitted it....And he was man enough to put his name and who he was behind what he said....
Questionable has yet to show any credibility on any of his so called FACTS-- has been proven wrong multiple times, has shown little knowledge of anything involving cattle or marketing- wants to hide in anonymity and doesn't even know where he lives :roll: :wink: :lol: :lol:
:agree:
Makes ya want to scratch your head on where he gets his facts....... :shock:
Sand H corn growers could and did take advantage of funding from your old farm bill including production loans which are subsidies. Of couse you will say they aren't but they are. I'm not going to argue the price of corn ask anyone who actually feeds cattle it is higher than historical price but low relative to other feed grains look at barley, feed wheat for example. But you seem to want to say corn is very expensive and hurting US cattle feeders maybe you should tell others on this site that say there are piles of corn sitting that aren't expected to be moved until spring. Go ahead and tell your countrymen how high prices corn is and how much money can be made :???:
Bull$hit any organization i am part of you can get a membership list from without belonging to it. Just go to goverment of canada website and under the freedom of imformation act with the canadian federal government ALL non-profits have to submit membership lists every calender year.
OOH 5 cent per hundred weight in a month try 30 then maybe someone will cough. It just shows the sky won't fall like so many r-calfers are predicting.
Honest cattlemen would have prevented those last 5 from going stateside as they were all submitted to the CFIA voluntarily as they were non ambulatory and could not leave the farm anyways , nice try but non would have made it stateside even if the border was open. NEXT
You seem to want to argue anything but what i wanted to talk about what is influencing calf prices the most, as 80 percent of cow calf operations sell at weaning. Any more tangents you want to go on maybe how the border was closed to canadian chicken?
Bull$hit any organization i am part of you can get a membership list from without belonging to it. Just go to goverment of canada website and under the freedom of imformation act with the canadian federal government ALL non-profits have to submit membership lists every calender year.
OOH 5 cent per hundred weight in a month try 30 then maybe someone will cough. It just shows the sky won't fall like so many r-calfers are predicting.
Honest cattlemen would have prevented those last 5 from going stateside as they were all submitted to the CFIA voluntarily as they were non ambulatory and could not leave the farm anyways , nice try but non would have made it stateside even if the border was open. NEXT
You seem to want to argue anything but what i wanted to talk about what is influencing calf prices the most, as 80 percent of cow calf operations sell at weaning. Any more tangents you want to go on maybe how the border was closed to canadian chicken?