Badlands
Well-known member
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Your need to exaggerate detracts greatly from your point.
Badlands
Larry Leonhardt/Feb. Western Farmer Stockman
- Thread starter Faster horses
- Start date
Your need to exaggerate detracts greatly from your point.
Badlands
A
Anonymous
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Badlands said:
Thats kind of what I was thinking--Owned cattle since the 50's and I don't remember ever having 2-300 pound weaning weights...Some folks aren't giving enough credit to those old hereford, shorthorn, and angus cows/cross's of years back...
Jinglebob
Well-known member
Oldtimer said:
Yup, I was thinkin' the same thing.
I've read that weaning weights have no correlation to prosperity.
It's not what they weigh or how much they bring per head or pound, it's how much you make off from them.
I live small one is worth a lot more than a dead big one. :wink:
Makes me wonder how them ol' fellers ever paid for them ranches years ago, with them "light weight" calves. :wink:
movin' on
Well-known member
I agree with you Jinglebob. However, don't you think that when ranches were actually used for ranching and not hunting/1031 exchanges/investing etc. they would have been a little easire to pay off even with poorer weaning weights?
Jason
Well-known member
Some of the traits Purecountry listed are exactly what I was refering to when you look for a producer that selects for multiple traits. Feet, legs disposition are all very important.
Open cows are not productive cows.
Anyone that thinks 295 pound calves are money makers is not thinking straight, 400 pound calves won't pay many bills either. Anyone that has never seen weaned calves that small hasn't been in business very long or has never seen some of the poor cows that used to be common, and still exist.
Some things that are the same no matter what cows you raise, land values are the same in the same area no matter your breed. Your fuel costs are the same per litre/gallon. Finding ways to reduce fuel usage is great but some is needed no matter how you look at it. All feeding efficencies can be used to feed any breed.
Because Galloway and Highland cattle have no EPD's means selection for measureable traits is slower and less likely to be linear in a positive direction. It doesn't mean they have no value. It does mean it will be harder to compare them to breeds that have larger data bases.
I don't weigh my calves at weaning anymore, but I can eyeball a 600 pounder. I also very rarely use a young bull A.I. I use my own bulls from my best cows and from proven sires.
For the guys that like the more per pound for the light calves, do you want $1.20 for 4 weights or $0.99 for 6 weights?
Open cows are not productive cows.
Anyone that thinks 295 pound calves are money makers is not thinking straight, 400 pound calves won't pay many bills either. Anyone that has never seen weaned calves that small hasn't been in business very long or has never seen some of the poor cows that used to be common, and still exist.
Some things that are the same no matter what cows you raise, land values are the same in the same area no matter your breed. Your fuel costs are the same per litre/gallon. Finding ways to reduce fuel usage is great but some is needed no matter how you look at it. All feeding efficencies can be used to feed any breed.
Because Galloway and Highland cattle have no EPD's means selection for measureable traits is slower and less likely to be linear in a positive direction. It doesn't mean they have no value. It does mean it will be harder to compare them to breeds that have larger data bases.
I don't weigh my calves at weaning anymore, but I can eyeball a 600 pounder. I also very rarely use a young bull A.I. I use my own bulls from my best cows and from proven sires.
For the guys that like the more per pound for the light calves, do you want $1.20 for 4 weights or $0.99 for 6 weights?
Faster horses
Well-known member
I know that Larry Leonhardt bred a son to his mother and got the
bull he called ECHO, that his current program is based on. When I was
selling advertising and contacted many seedstock producers,
I found that Larry Leonhardt was touted as knowing as
much or more about Angus genetics than anyone in North
America. He will tell you himself that he got off the "Performance
Bandwagon" in 1979.
Prior to that he bought the highest priced,
best gaining bulls at the bull tests and THEY DID HIM NO GOOD.
He says they are outliers and will not breed back to themselves,
but rather, will breed back to the average of that line of cattle.
He also says Hybrid Vigor is the only thing FREE we have
in this business.
He is quite a guy. We spent a whole day with him when we
were buying bulls from him. One of the most interesting and
productive days we could ask for, I might add.
BTW, he says about himself, "I'm just a dirty little beet farmer." :wink:
bull he called ECHO, that his current program is based on. When I was
selling advertising and contacted many seedstock producers,
I found that Larry Leonhardt was touted as knowing as
much or more about Angus genetics than anyone in North
America. He will tell you himself that he got off the "Performance
Bandwagon" in 1979.
Prior to that he bought the highest priced,
best gaining bulls at the bull tests and THEY DID HIM NO GOOD.
He says they are outliers and will not breed back to themselves,
but rather, will breed back to the average of that line of cattle.
He also says Hybrid Vigor is the only thing FREE we have
in this business.
He is quite a guy. We spent a whole day with him when we
were buying bulls from him. One of the most interesting and
productive days we could ask for, I might add.
BTW, he says about himself, "I'm just a dirty little beet farmer." :wink:
Jinglebob
Well-known member
Probably cuz' they didn't bring as much. They were worth what you could make off from them and not what everybody else said they was worth.movin' on said:
Some of these older guys around here got a good alfalfa seed crop and paid of their ranches, years back. But then they didn't spend much on tractors and trucks either. :wink:
Or wages. :lol:
O, the times they are a'changin'.
Faster horses said:
As I read through this, People are using this to identify those that have a lot of recessive "Junk" vs those that don't by breeding related cattle....I can see that, but, It seems not too long from now, that willl be the Slow wa of doing it.....Actual tests for the gene composition of individuals as we learn more would seemingly be faster,
Like I said, I am not a Purebred Producer, I will breed unrelated to get the hybrid Vigor,
PPRM
PPRM
Badlands
Well-known member
Jason,
You missed the point entirely.
295 pound calves have ALWAYS been dinks, even when the buckle cattle were common.
I remember 395 pound calves as a kid. I remember that as the average, not as a couple of dinks. I've looked at my grandpa's records back into the 50's, and those calves ran from 365-390 pounds on the average for all those years. Straightbred Herefords.
If you don't weigh your calves at weaning, then how do you know their EPD are accurate? Maybe the reason the low accuracy AI sires don't work out for you is because the guys that bred them weigh calves like you? Just a thought.......
Badlands
You missed the point entirely.
295 pound calves have ALWAYS been dinks, even when the buckle cattle were common.
I remember 395 pound calves as a kid. I remember that as the average, not as a couple of dinks. I've looked at my grandpa's records back into the 50's, and those calves ran from 365-390 pounds on the average for all those years. Straightbred Herefords.
If you don't weigh your calves at weaning, then how do you know their EPD are accurate? Maybe the reason the low accuracy AI sires don't work out for you is because the guys that bred them weigh calves like you? Just a thought.......
Badlands
Badlands
Well-known member
PPRM, gene tests are still not available for many of the things that are cropping up in some of the breeds. If we had linebred for the last 35 years, instead of waiting for the tests, we wouldn't be waiting for the tests now!
We are still waiting for the Angus dwarfism test. That one popped up in a major way about 6 years ago, maybe it was 7. It has been developed, now we are waiting for liscensing issues. I'm pretty sure with the 6 Angus sires that I know about that have produced dwarf calves, that the AAA doesn't know about (or at least have listed as D on their papers), that the Angus guys were breeding plenty of cattle with exactly your attitude.
If you ignore it, it isn't REALLY there, is it? If you wait for someone else to develop a test, it isn't REALLY your problem, is it?
Badlands
Jason
Well-known member
Badlands, work on your reading skills.
I don't weigh my calves at weaning.... where did I say I have epd's on my calves?
I don't believe in low accuracy epd's because of the ability to drag them up or down until they get enough data collected. Regrettably my data is not included because I have no weights.
I use high accuracy epds ...or bulls that have been proven. Young flavor of the month bulls are not my program. I know exactly what I will get when I use a proven sire.
I don't weigh my calves at weaning.... where did I say I have epd's on my calves?
I don't believe in low accuracy epd's because of the ability to drag them up or down until they get enough data collected. Regrettably my data is not included because I have no weights.
I use high accuracy epds ...or bulls that have been proven. Young flavor of the month bulls are not my program. I know exactly what I will get when I use a proven sire.
PureCountry
Well-known member
Jason said:
Jason, what in the Sam He!! makes you think I want to compare my Galloways to other breeds? I'm raising cattle that work in my environment, and do it profitably. I don't care how they compare to my neighbours Angus, Limo's or Simmi's. They have to work on our ranch without any help or excuses from me, and that is Mother Nature doing the culling, which will always be a better meter stick to separate the good cattle from the bad. Just my opinion.
I truly believe that your selection being, not solely, but heavily dependent on EPD's will not take you any closer, any faster, to high quality beef and/or cattle, than my selection methods.
Badlands said:
Thnaks for clarifying the state of testing....
With the Bulls I use, I don't have to worry....Test or none..Good Simangus Bulls....Not related to my females....My statement was that this testing will be more readily available in the future...
I will say that a lot of what you guys say makes more sense than the general statements I here about this...Many local proponents I see are guys that have mismanaged a ton of things and are latching onto this to save them..They really don't know what they are talking about, but throw around words like pure genetics and Double bred to infer that the animals they have are better than anyone elses....Yet, they typically are runts and scrubs......Why would I run Lowline Angus or Dwarf Breeds when the area I run will easily support 1200-1300 pound cows? Keep in mnd I am talking about the guys totuing this locally....
The guys I see jumping on this in my area also tend to be jumping on the grass fat programs as a way to justify thier cattle. These cattle are scrubs giving 500 pound carcasses. The butcher tells me the hides peel hard and with his many years of experience, the meat cuts tough....I say this to clarify my predisposition and biases, Not to put you in the same boat
I think many of you are mising my point. Why would I as a guy producing commercial calves change from a crossbreeding program to a linebreeding one? If a purebred guy wants to go many generations to find the recessives, that seems expensive to me, but his choice....The reason I hesitate to buy bulls this way is how do you seperate the sincere guys from the guy that is taking a chance his bull is there and ecomomics says he can "Sell" the Bull for $2,000" or the steer for $1100? The guys I buy Bulls from have been around and I have seen generations of great cattle....FH clued me into one good guy when she talked how he recognizes the importance of Hybrid Vigor....He does not trash other programs and styles to support his own....
I get consistent calves.....Weaning Wt depends on when I wean them. This is more often predicated by the forage available than size. One thing I don't see anyone mentioning is looking at the age of the Dam.....The best Bull I ever had was froma large breeder....He runs his cows in the hills and then starts feeding as a trial at about 800 pounds.....Same as I do with my herd....This Calf was in the top 5% of performance (WW, BW, Gain) with one of the lowest BW in the herd...The Dam was 13 years old running on Dry Grass....For her to be in that herd that long, she had to perform.....Longevity is as important as anything....
Anyways, if we all always agree, then only one or two are thinking......I may have seemed a bit like a Butt in this, but I took it from the stance that you are trying to sell me into this type of program....If that is the case, you have the burden of Proving I should go there......That is all,
PPRM
Badlands
Well-known member
Jason, I read what you put down. I made a faulty assumption. I assumed you were talking about raising and selling registered bulls with EPD. My mistake. So, do you NOT use any EPD information from the animals that you sell?
Badlands
Badlands
Well-known member
PPRM,
You are astute enough to understand that the breeding sytems that purebred folks use may be quite different from the systems that commercial folks like you use.
If a purebred guy does the linebreeding like we have talked about, then the benefits are many for the commercial man like you.
I would say that you do need to be careful, whether the animals are related, or not. There have been a good number of dwarfism carrrying Angus females that have been bred to Black Simmental bulls that have been sold in the last couple years. They cleaned them out of the Angus pool, but dumped them onto the Simmental pool. You will have to be doubly cautious as many of the Simmental guys are making 1/2 bloods from the same Angus bulls.
I don't think you are being cross at all. Just good discussion. I agree with many of the points you made about the whole grassfed/linebred deal. They have noithing to do with each other, but they have become entwined. I approached my responses as if you were a purebred producer. I think you will see that makes a difference, as you have already described some of that.
Badlands
You are astute enough to understand that the breeding sytems that purebred folks use may be quite different from the systems that commercial folks like you use.
If a purebred guy does the linebreeding like we have talked about, then the benefits are many for the commercial man like you.
I would say that you do need to be careful, whether the animals are related, or not. There have been a good number of dwarfism carrrying Angus females that have been bred to Black Simmental bulls that have been sold in the last couple years. They cleaned them out of the Angus pool, but dumped them onto the Simmental pool. You will have to be doubly cautious as many of the Simmental guys are making 1/2 bloods from the same Angus bulls.
I don't think you are being cross at all. Just good discussion. I agree with many of the points you made about the whole grassfed/linebred deal. They have noithing to do with each other, but they have become entwined. I approached my responses as if you were a purebred producer. I think you will see that makes a difference, as you have already described some of that.
Badlands
Please name Names.....Seriously...Even PM Me...But which Bulls are noted for carrying the Dwarf Gene?
I am not a guy that reads the Angus journal, if they even publish information like that......
I remember a few years ago a Nice Charlais cow I ad whose feet were terrible after 4 years...I cullled her and a Vet told me a cerain popular ine was prone to that, but he wouldn't say which...So, he just made me war of all Charlais cattle.......He did none any favors by not naming names...
And yes Badlands, I will argue a point to better understand it, and then say, OK......Here is where i see this fitting....Thanks for recognizing that,
PPRM
I am not a guy that reads the Angus journal, if they even publish information like that......
I remember a few years ago a Nice Charlais cow I ad whose feet were terrible after 4 years...I cullled her and a Vet told me a cerain popular ine was prone to that, but he wouldn't say which...So, he just made me war of all Charlais cattle.......He did none any favors by not naming names...
And yes Badlands, I will argue a point to better understand it, and then say, OK......Here is where i see this fitting....Thanks for recognizing that,
PPRM
A
Anonymous
Guest
PPRM said:
PPRM- Heres a link to a website forum where many of the folks very knowledgeable in the angus business have been discussing the dwarf issue, old known carriers, and the new test and how it may or may not be used....If you search "dwarf", I think you can find several more threads- as it is a hot topic in the angus world- especially after so many rumors came out about top bulls showing the gene when they were doing the testing on this new test....
http://www.advantagecattle.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2393&whichpage=1
I found this link from the Angus Association showing carriers of known defects....I am not sure how complete it is, how much evidence ot takes to get on the list and how big the "Suspects" list may be...
http://www.angus.org/pubs/brg6.html
PPRM
http://www.angus.org/pubs/brg6.html
PPRM
A
Anonymous
Guest
PPRM said:
This all relies on the honesty and credibility of the seedstock breeders to report to the AAA the defect showing up- and therein lies the failability of what sometimes gets reported- and which get listed...
That is where a genetic test will make it much more substantially reliable... It will be interesting to see how the AAA and some of these big breeders and AI studs use the test...I know if I was part of a group that was going to put up $250,000 for some bull, I'd be demanding that he be tested and receive a negative test before I bought him....
Badlands
Well-known member
I don't think so, PPRM.
Badands
Badands