Link to article from allon savory on usa drought

[PATB]

link to pdf file

http://www.savoryinstitute.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/U.S.-Drought-Manmade-Natural-Disaster-July-20121.pdf

WARNING The article may be considered contraversial in his point of view

[/b]

 

[3 M L & C]

What an idiot. Does he not know about lightning causing wildfires?

 

[LazyWP]

What always gets me about the "mob brazing" mentality, is that its "the way nature intended grass to be grazed." I say BS!!! All you have to do, is look at the sandhills, even 50 years ago, and you can see that it didn't work. When the buffalo were allowed to roam the hills, all this country was a total blow out!

 

[Shortgrass]

The article said "See, I told ya so, but you wouldn't listen."

 

[Clarencen]

That's somewhat along the lines of what I have been thinking. Was especially interested in the comment of oxidation vs decay. In recent years there has been a lot of talk about fire, about controlled burns. After a fire we see a growth of lush green grass, this leads us to believe that fire is more beneficial then it is. true, it's use is mostly to control unwanted plants like the Eastern Red Cedar. Maybe mother nature puts these plants in for a purpose. But putting that aside, it is common knowledge that the microbes that cause decay tie up nitrogen until they die. Maybe the lush early spring growth is because there is more nitrogen available after a fire not because of the fire itself.

About a month and a half ago, we had a fire here. It burned much of my range land on the west unit of my ranch. I am not ranching now, so have it leased out. I haven't looked at all of it but where I have I see all the litter has been burned off 80% bare ground might not be to far off. We hope for a good snow cover to protect it this winter, then mother nature next summer.

 

[PATB]

Some of Mr Savory's ideas work in my area but we get far more moisture than most. I do like the idea that cows are needed on the land to help the ecosystem work. If Grand canyon national park and surronding areas are examples of no livestock an not much vegetation then lets have an experiment with large number of livestock rotated thru for short period of time. I think some one may have to truck in feed to support any kind of large animals in numbers in most of that area if memory serves me right.

 

[Jake]

Some of Mr Savory's ideas work in my area but we get far more moisture than most. I do like the idea that cows are needed on the land to help the ecosystem work. If Grand canyon national park and surronding areas are examples of no livestock an not much vegetation then lets have an experiment with large number of livestock rotated thru for short period of time. I think some one may have to truck in feed to support any kind of large animals in numbers in most of that area if memory serves me right.

I want to see the pictures of the deserts he picked out during the growing season and after a period of just average rainfall versus his pictures. I have a hard time believing that grazing patterns can change some ecosystems.

 

[Denny]

The last paragraph states it all ( A Congressional investigation) what a jackass congress needs to stay out of business they have no clue of.

 

[okfarmer]

When someone is writing a supposed scientific article and include the phrase:

"Only a month ago, some Ranchers in New Mexico gathered to honor me"

As my grand father would say, the guy is full or horse pucky.

A. There are no statistics. He has created a theory and is using nothing but photographs to make up examples for his theory.

B. This is not peer reveiwed.

C. There is no statistics showing improved rain fall in an area that has been managed by his suggestions.

D. I won't bore you further with tearing this apart but could list many other examples.

I believe that there is benefit from allowing land to rest. But I don't believe I am going to change the rain fall on it. I may change the amount of water retained by changing managment practices.

 

[PATB]

I believe that there is benefit from allowing land to rest. But I don't believe I am going to change the rain fall on it. I may change the amount of water retained by changing managment practices.

If you increase the effective water retention in the soil is that not same as getting more rain?

What is the pratical rotation during the growing season in different areas of america? How long before the forage shows visible regrowth in your area? Daily rotation is best in my area with the amount of moisture and type of grass we have. We have visible regrowth after 3 days eaten or mowed. I can rotate the cows thru the paddocks on average 4 times a year.

 

[okfarmer]

I believe that there is benefit from allowing land to rest. But I don't believe I am going to change the rain fall on it. I may change the amount of water retained by changing managment practices.

If you increase the effective water retention in the soil is that not same as getting more rain?

I believe I understand your point, and if I do, I see this as a totally different line of thought than the author is trying to make.

It appears to be the purpose of the author to make a big leap and try to convince the reader that farming practices (or humans) can alter the weather pattern significantly. It is nothing but a new twist on the "man made" global warming theory. And by man made, I mean the theory is contribed fiction from a man's brain.

Water retention and rain are different. Both may increase plant growth, yes. But they are still different.

As far as water retention, if it rains or if I poor 1 inch of water on the ground, the ground retains something between 1 inches of water and nothing (complete loss). I will agree that I can likely have some varying effect on this by how I graze, work, rest, or neglect the ground.

However, by my farming practices, I cannot cause the clouds to release 1.5 or 2 or 3 inches of precipitation to fall from the atmosphere to the soil. That is rain. And the author is saying that my agricultural practices can cause an increase in rain or can cause a drought.

What is the pratical rotation during the growing season in different areas of america? How long before the forage shows visible regrowth in your area? Daily rotation is best in my area with the amount of moisture and type of grass we have. We have visible regrowth after 3 days eaten or mowed. I can rotate the cows thru the paddocks on average 4 times a year.

We may have regrowth 3 days, 3 months or right now 3 years.


On a side note:

How much of the earth's surface is exposed water and how much is dry land? Something over 70% of the earths surface is ocean, then consider all the lakes, rivers, ponds, creeks, sloughs, snow and ice covered poles. It is hard to believe that such a small percentage of the surface and even smaller percentage of moisuture (I bet far less than 0.01% of the atmospheric moisture that you could affect) will have a global impact on weather. And weather is a global phenomenon.

They author said nothing about wild ruminents which also shows some lack of thought or ignorance. Buffalo were only one species. What about every other animal that makes use of the praire? In the area or Arizona he chose, what about deer, antelope, elk, desert sheep, rabbits, mice, rats, locus, grass hoppers, birds, etc... These are still living in the desert. The number of animals the area contains is the number it will support. If it was lush, there would be higher numbers. It is not.

I see an agenda and lack of thought. I'll shut my trap.

 

[C Thompson]

Hello PatB
I don't want you too feel to outnumbered here. Although we are still very new to Managed Grazing, we are every day pleasantly surprised with the way our land is looking after us. Since we quit all of the continuous grazing we were familiar with and also turned our hay-fields into pastures we manage with portable and permanent electric fence, we have over 4 years doubled our grass production and kept our livestock numbers constant. Our expenses are half what they used to be and we winter feed 2 months now while the neighbors still feed for 5. We also custom grazed an additional 120 yearlings on the same land while most others were putting up hay and this year are seeing some of the things that Savory mentions. We are seeing water running out of springs and draws for 2 months now and still flowing that used to dry up within a week after irrigation was turned off. Only since we made these fundamental changes can we graze our cattle longer into winter and turn them out on stockpiled grass in the spring after the snow is gone. Our grass is thicker and more plentiful than chemical fertilizer ever gave us and we are getting paid to make it happen. There is no cookie cutter example of doing this that will fit every place but we owe our successes and final profitability to the teachings of folks like Savory and Parsons. I can appreciate the message Savory is putting out even if I don't particularly like his delivery method because of the very things his teachings have done to improve our land, livestock and bottom line. I only hope my message or story as it were isn't seen as worthless because it is different. We all have a lot to show each other if we can just open our minds to accepting or at least trying to understand the other guy's point of view.

 

[Big Swede]

C. Thompson, where have you been. I am always interested to hear of your progress and experiences. Nice to hear from you.

 

[PATB]

Hello PatB
I don't want you too feel to outnumbered here. Although we are still very new to Managed Grazing, we are every day pleasantly surprised with the way our land is looking after us. Since we quit all of the continuous grazing we were familiar with and also turned our hay-fields into pastures we manage with portable and permanent electric fence, we have over 4 years doubled our grass production and kept our livestock numbers constant. Our expenses are half what they used to be and we winter feed 2 months now while the neighbors still feed for 5. We also custom grazed an additional 120 yearlings on the same land while most others were putting up hay and this year are seeing some of the things that Savory mentions. We are seeing water running out of springs and draws for 2 months now and still flowing that used to dry up within a week after irrigation was turned off. Only since we made these fundamental changes can we graze our cattle longer into winter and turn them out on stockpiled grass in the spring after the snow is gone. Our grass is thicker and more plentiful than chemical fertilizer ever gave us and we are getting paid to make it happen. There is no cookie cutter example of doing this that will fit every place but we owe our successes and final profitability to the teachings of folks like Savory and Parsons. I can appreciate the message Savory is putting out even if I don't particularly like his delivery method because of the very things his teachings have done to improve our land, livestock and bottom line. I only hope my message or story as it were isn't seen as worthless because it is different. We all have a lot to show each other if we can just open our minds to accepting or at least trying to understand the other guy's point of view.

Thank you for sharing your success story. There are as many success stories as there are failures using rotational grazing. Every ranch will need to custom design their plans to fit there enviroment and resources. The recovery period for forage between grazing plays a major impact on the success of plan along how much residue is left after the grazing. Ray Archeleta NRCS soil sciencetist has some interesting videos on Youtube about soil temperature on bare ground vs coverered ground. There is also videos of water infiltration from work done in Nort Dakota comparing rotational grazed pasture, coninous stock pasture and bare crop ground. I would highly encourage people to watch these videos.

The science is there that if we improve the ground cover on our land we could reduce co2 levels to pre industrial revolutions levels with out any other high tech scheme.

 

[3 M L & C]

Most crop land is covered during majority of the rainfall period already That's what the crops are doing out there. Also where I live 90 percent practice no till strip to or some other minimum till and have for the last 10 years. A lot of other places do the same I know. We have way better farming practices than we did in the early 90's and it rained all the time back the This is just some knotheads opinion with no statistics. He's just wanting some attintion because there is a huge drought and he thinks he has an answer. News flash its been dry before and will be dry again. Just have to hang on and make it till the moisture makes it here

 

[Hillrider]

Pat,

Could you provide a link to the North Dakota water infiltration videos? Or more info on where to find them.

Doug

 

[PATB]

Pat,

Could you provide a link to the North Dakota water infiltration videos? Or more info on where to find them.

Doug

http://vimeo.com/channels/raythesoilguy

there are 3 pages of videos and I believe it is on page 2 or 3. Ray also has videos on youtube just search for "Ray Archeleta".

Holistic management videos on youtube 61 videos link together

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUvlLqRkfL4&feature=bf_next&list=PL4FF91036D5BDF827

 

[C Thompson]

Hello all, Thanks for the kind words. Like I said in my previous post I am still pretty new to this so it is so amazing when the things the educated graziers claimed start happening. I have found that if my skin is thick enough I can learn something from almost anyone but a softer delivery style always makes it easier. Changing operating practices are always easier when encouragement is offered rather than criticism. I have certainly needed a wake up call a time or two when I thought there was only one way to do something and was quick to judge other styles. Even with what we are doing now I often find myself thinking I have more figured out than I actually do but I do think we are on the right track when we are rewarded with the results we are seeing. Change is still hard but I believe that different is mostly just different and not always wrong. Coming to the realization that our ranch is a business and not just a life-style has made a significant difference in the decisions we are making as we move forward. Instead of just shopping around for the best price on a particular input, we now first ask the question of whether the input is even needed and that was not a line of thinking that was easy to adopt. It is amazing how enlightening it has been to be able to scratch some of these inputs off our budget list that we previously thought we couldn't do without and then get rewarded rather than penalized. Electric fencing versus permanent non electric wire fence is a very good example of this but an almost impossible paradigm to overcome for a lot of us. Anyway this was about Savory wasn't it?

 

[littlejoe]

That's somewhat along the lines of what I have been thinking. Was especially interested in the comment of oxidation vs decay. In recent years there has been a lot of talk about fire, about controlled burns. After a fire we see a growth of lush green grass, this leads us to believe that fire is more beneficial then it is. true, it's use is mostly to control unwanted plants like the Eastern Red Cedar. Maybe mother nature puts these plants in for a purpose. But putting that aside, it is common knowledge that the microbes that cause decay tie up nitrogen until they die. Maybe the lush early spring growth is because there is more nitrogen available after a fire not because of the fire itself.

About a month and a half ago, we had a fire here. It burned much of my range land on the west unit of my ranch. I am not ranching now, so have it leased out. I haven't looked at all of it but where I have I see all the litter has been burned off 80% bare ground might not be to far off. We hope for a good snow cover to protect it this winter, then mother nature next summer.

"After a fire we see a growth of lush green grass, this leads us to believe that fire is more beneficial then it is..." Ya, looks great, don't it? It's kinda surprising if you go past fire boundary and really look at how much green grass there also is in the unburned stuff --it just don't jump out at ya----just like with a good spring, the guy who has nuked his looks better than the guy who didn't

 

[Angus 62]

Our experiences have been similar to what C Thompson has stated. Some of it came almost by accident. That pasture that got extra rest because you couldn't get off the tractor long enough to fix it. When you did finally graze it you noticed how quickly it recovered and how much more productive it was. The hay field that didn't get cut because of weather or some other unforeseen event but was instead grazed. How increasing organic matter and allowing for increased root systems impacts the severity and duration of drought compared to ''conventional'' ways of operation.