Love Their Bulls!

[TizHot]

Been buying bulls from well known breeder for years and have generally been very happy with results. The concern I have is we don't feed like a feedlot we feed well but we feed like a ranch. The bulls from this breeder are fed very heavy and are pushed. Genetics and service are top notch and they are locals in my area.Just like comments on the previous post no doubt the fat ones sell! Good or bad that is the reality. My thinking is that if a bull doesnt do good there it will certainly not do good at my place!

They sell yearlings and fall bulls. Generally we buy yearlings due to temperment. But is there some merit in thinking they haven't been on the feed program as long? Less liver issues? My other question is will bulls that are in a less intensive feeding program but are less quality turn out better at my place. When my new bulls are delivered to my pastures in springtime it has to be a shock to their system to go from full feed to grass. We don't pull bulls just due to the shear workload on the crop side. I know thats not the correct way to go about it. Therefore the yearlings look like crap usually when brought in with the cows. So do I sacrifice superior genetics to buy "ranch bulls" that may summer better?

New to the site but have read for sometime and am impressed with the knowledge and insite available here. Thanks for your opinions!

 

[Mike]

Bulls that have been on an intensive feeding program should be "Cooled Down" with good/excellent hay and an incremental lessening of high carbohydrate feed over a 2-3 month program.

Jerking a bull from a full feed environment and putting him to work on poor pasture is doing him and you an injustice.

Even a bull that has been finished on grazing can go downhill............

 

[Just Ranchin]

Ah the age old debate about bull feeding management. We are on both sides of the fence on the topic. We sell yearling angus bulls, and we are in the market this year to buy a couple. We have bought both types of bulls, green and overfed. I try and look at the long term picture being what will this bull do for me, how will his daughters turn out, how long will he last, and how marketable will the calves be. Ask yourself these questions, and I think you will know the answer you are looking for.
I just looked at a pen of bulls that looked great, however, they were too fat. When asked what I thought, I told him they looked good, but I wouldn't be buying because of condition.
I will give you 2 scenarios:
1) You buy a fat bull that looks great coming off the trailer, but looks like hell in the fall
2) You buy a greener bull that looks okay coming off the trailer, but has gained weight during the summer and actually ends up better and heavier than the fatter bull.

 

[Soapweed]

Moderation in all things; even in the selection of a bull's quality and condition.

 

[PATB]

Look around for forage based operation that has the genetics you want. How many cows can the a fat bull vs a thin bull settle during your breeding season and how quick?

 

[Just Ranchin]

Not that I have anything against forage raised bulls, as they will truly last a long time. However, how do you prevent promoting later developing bulls at 2 years old? there is a breed out there that sold nothing but 2 year olds for years, and now they are noted for later maturity, poor gains and low grade/yield.

 

[Faster horses]

Bulls that have been on an intensive feeding program should be "Cooled Down" with good/excellent hay and an incremental lessening of high carbohydrate feed over a 2-3 month program.

Jerking a bull from a full feed environment and putting him to work on poor pasture is doing him and you an injustice.

I totally agree and know what Mike wrote to be true.
Too bad most stockpeople don't understand this. You need to bring the
bulls off feed slowly, the same way you started them on feed.

Good post Mike.

 

[BRG]

Not that I have anything against forage raised bulls, as they will truly last a long time. However, how do you prevent promoting later developing bulls at 2 years old? there is a breed out there that sold nothing but 2 year olds for years, and now they are noted for later maturity, poor gains and low grade/yield.

We annually sell 100 twos and 100 yearlings at auction and then another 25 bull privately. I can understand what you are getting at, but you need to select for the right thing, whether you sell yearling, 2 year olds or what ever you sell. Our customers want some performance in their cattle, so we make sure we have it. We use the same herd bulls on the cows that make the 2's as we do the cows that we make the yearlings out of.(2 completely different groups of cows) This way we know if they have the early performance needed. We let the 2's grow out more slowly, (2 lbs/day average) but you can still see which ones do well and have performance and which ones don't, as if they are not keeping up at 2/bs a day, they won't when you are wanting them to do 3 lbs a day.

 

[Mike]

Weaning weights/how hard they push down on the scales is surely important for those that wean on the trailer, but finish gain/efficiency is equally important for EVERY calf because most every commercial calf goes to a feedlot at some point.

When bull suppliers stop pushing young bull herd candidates in the growth dept and retaining such data, finish times, gain, and maybe efficiency will diminish in the feedlot..... The most expensive portion of a commercial calf's life.

There is a balance.

 

[Big Swede]

Does any seedstock producer push their replacement heifers for maximum gains? I would venture to say that very few do. Do heifer calves get introduced to creep feeders from day one? Probably not and if they do they are wacko in my opinion. Why should bulls be any different.

Putting bulls on a growing ration instead of a finishing ration would benefit them just like it does for their sisters. I have 12 yearling bulls on a 40 megacal ration that will have them plenty big enough by breeding season and they won't fall apart over the summer.

Your comment of "should I sacrifice superior genetics for ranch bulls that summer better" has me puzzled TizHot. Can't bulls in average condition be superior genetically?

 

[gcreekrch]

Your comment of "should I sacrifice superior genetics for ranch bulls that summer better" has me puzzled TizHot. Can't bulls in average condition be superior genetically?

That statement has me wondering too.

 

[TizHot]

I guess that statement came out abit odd! I am very happy with the genetics I am in right now and the up and coming lines that my breeder is offering. So to say that it would be a step down is not a fair statement. I apologize it came thru that way.

 

[Mike]

Does any seedstock producer push their replacement heifers for maximum gains? I would venture to say that very few do. Do heifer calves get introduced to creep feeders from day one? Probably not and if they do they are wacko in my opinion. Why should bulls be any different.

Why should bulls be different?

Because bulls have a very different specific job to do when they mature.

Energy reserves, including stored fat deposits in and around the udder and uterus, are not nearly as detrimental to bulls as it can be in heifers.

Not allowing a bull to express his genetic potential is mismanagement in my opinion.

Providing feed to animals is the largest cost input in most animal production
systems (Fan et al., 1995; Arthur et al., 2001a; Archer et al., 2002; Basarab et al., 2002;
Herd et al., 2003), with 60 to 75% of total feed requirements utilized by the beef animal
for maintenance (Arthur et al., 2001a; Basarab et al., 2002). Individual cattle vary in
their ability to efficiently utilize feed (Fan et al., 1995; Arthur et al., 2001a). Currently,
beef cattle are the least efficient converters of feedstuffs to unit gain among major protein
providers. Farm raised fish are most efficient (1.1 pounds of feed to 1.0 pound of gain)
followed by poultry (2 pounds of feed to 1.0 pound of gain) and swine (2.5 or 3 pounds
of feed to 1.0 pound of gain). Cattle are a distant fourth with a feed conversion ratio
(FCR) of 7.5 or 8 pounds of feed to 1.0 pound of gain. Any improvement of the output of
beef per unit of feed used over the entire production system would be of significant
economic benefit (Herd et al., 2003).

 

[Hay Feeder]

One reason bull suppliers feed their yearling so much as some may of been creep fed also. They are trying to get their bulls big enough to be used and sold. Many simply can not hold over bulls for another year

At least to me a two year old is something that no one wanted the year before

These guys sell these yearlings gin feb and mar are giving the buyer plenty of time to back the bulls off till they are used. That first season for a yearling is pretty tough for all of them. Good managers can use the young bulls properly while others have a bad experience

The better yearling bull operations will take there no sale or extra bulls sell them on the grid while they are still fat

 

[Mike]

No one buys yearling bulls down here. They want 2 year olds.

 

[BRG]

One reason bull suppliers feed their yearling so much as some may of been creep fed also. They are trying to get their bulls big enough to be used and sold. Many simply can not hold over bulls for another year

At least to me a two year old is something that no one wanted the year before

These guys sell these yearlings gin feb and mar are giving the buyer plenty of time to back the bulls off till they are used. That first season for a yearling is pretty tough for all of them. Good managers can use the young bulls properly while others have a bad experience

The better yearling bull operations will take there no sale or extra bulls sell them on the grid while they are still fat

I disagree with this statement as it is a pretty broad statement. You may be correct with some breeders, but with our program you aren't. We have 2 different calving season, and they are separated that way when we sell them. We calve the mothers of the 2's in late May/June and the yearlings in Feb and March. Most everything that calves later in the spring group gets held over as a 2 as well. All the bulls that we make 2's out of are fed together and never offered for sale. So not all 2's are held over due to not getting sold.

 

[Mike]

One reason bull suppliers feed their yearling so much as some may of been creep fed also. They are trying to get their bulls big enough to be used and sold. Many simply can not hold over bulls for another year

At least to me a two year old is something that no one wanted the year before

These guys sell these yearlings gin feb and mar are giving the buyer plenty of time to back the bulls off till they are used. That first season for a yearling is pretty tough for all of them. Good managers can use the young bulls properly while others have a bad experience

The better yearling bull operations will take there no sale or extra bulls sell them on the grid while they are still fat

I disagree with this statement as it is a pretty broad statement. You may be correct with some breeders, but with our program you aren't. We have 2 different calving season, and they are separated that way when we sell them. We calve the mothers of the 2's in late May/June and the yearlings in Feb and March. Most everything that calves later in the spring group gets held over as a 2 as well. All the bulls that we make 2's out of are fed together and never offered for sale. So not all 2's are held over due to not getting sold.

"Generalities" usually pervade the thought process around here.

 

[Big Swede]

Mike you say that not allowing a bull to express his genetic potential is mismanagement. I am going to diasagree with you and here is why. Feeding bulls a high energy hot ration can cause all kind of issues from liver abscesses, feet problems, losing condition through the breeding season plus it's a more expensive way to develop your bulls. Any group of animals will perform with their herd mates and their performance will follow a bell curve whether it's a growing ration or a finishing ration. You can still choose from the higher indexing individuals and have an animal that will last and not fall out of your bull battery. Seems like a win win to me.

 

[Mike]

Mike you say that not allowing a bull to express his genetic potential is mismanagement. I am going to diasagree with you and here is why. Feeding bulls a high energy hot ration can cause all kind of issues from liver abscesses, feet problems, losing condition through the breeding season plus it's a more expensive way to develop your bulls. Any group of animals will perform with their herd mates and their performance will follow a bell curve whether it's a growing ration or a finishing ration. You can still choose from the higher indexing individuals and have an animal that will last and not fall out of your bull battery. Seems like a win win to me.

If you've got bulls that do this bad and have this many problems on feed, you need to change breeds or genetics anyway.

When their calves get to the feedlot they'll fall completely apart.

 

[leanin' H]

Won't have in calves in the feedlot cause the bulls won't be breeding cows when they are lame or falling apart. :wink: A bulls genetic potential is there regardless of how hard you push him to find out what it is. But by pushing too much feed at him, it's been our experience they simply don't hold up short or long term. It's a tightrope for sure to feed them just right and not over do. But Mike and I have much different climates and ask our bulls to do totally different things. I only know an overfat bull will not cover our type of country and breed cows without melting and having foot trouble. He may do just fine on a on grassy, fairly level 400 acre pasture down south.