March 9 - 12, 2012

[North Ridge Ranching]

From Wikipedia:

Although the black was more fashionable the recessive red gene still produced some red animals.[1] From the founding of the Aberdeen Angus herd book in 1862 red and black animals have been registered without distinction, and this is the case in most of the world. The American Aberdeen Angus Herdbook stopped registering red calves from 1917, leading to reds becoming very uncommon in the American population.

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So apparently Wikipedia and Soap are correct.

So this was in 1862. If the Black angus has been bred purebred black angus since then the chance of a red calf would be absolutly almost impossible.

eatbeef wrote:
There is no way a purebred angus bull would throw a red calf.



Can you 100% without a doubt guarantee me that???

Yes i can, because if you color test bulls, which is done in simmental, gelbvieh, and crossbreeding, and find out if the bull is homozygous black or heterozygous black it can be 100% guaranteed. Same way with horns, they can be homozygous polled or heterozyous polled.

eatbeef,

You are right about the fact that you can test for homozygosity in both color and polled in all breeds of cattle. The Simmental breed has one of the most complicated color genes due to the diluter genes. But I have to disagree with you on the red calves that result from purebred Black Angus cattle. The purebred Angus cattle we have today were developed from a cross of two different breeds of cattle, one which was either red or carried the recessive red gene. Being that red was the recesive gene, the black colour quickly dominated the breed. This does not mean that a red calf that results from two black parents is any less pure than a black calf. All this means is that in a quarter of the matings of two black cattle carrying the reccessive red gene a red calf will be produced. This reccesive red gene traces back to the start of the Black Angus breed. Since testing for the red gene was not done in the late 1800's early 1900's the gene perssisted and as long as the animal was black it was allowed to be registered after 1917 even if it carried the red gene. The theories of genetics show us that 1/4 to a 1/2 of the offspring from a red gene carrying sire will be black but carry the red gene depending on the if the dam is a red carrier or homozygous black. If the dam is a red carrier, a 1/4 of the calves will be red. I think this explains why the red gene still shows up in quite a few Black Angus cattle but does not express itself in the form of red cattle very often due it being recessive.

"Angus -Red or Black
Early in the development of the Aberdeen Angus, Hugh Watson of Keillor, Scotland arbitrarily decided that black was the proper color for the breed, and thereby started a fashion. He might well have chosen red instead. Leon J. Cole and Sara V. H. Jones of the University of Wisconsin Agricultural Experiment Station published a pamphlet in 1920 on "The Occurrence of Red Calves in Black Breeds of Cattle" which contained this pertinent paragraph:

"One more point should be emphasized, namely that the red individuals appearing in such stock (Aberdeen Angus)...are just as truly 'purebred' as their black relatives, and there is no reason why, in all respects save color, they should not be fully as valuable. The fact that they are discarded while the blacks are retained is simply due to the turn of fortune that black rather than red became established fashion for the Aberdeen Angus breed. Had red been the chosen color, there would never have been any trouble with the appearance of blacks as off-color individuals, since red-to-red breeds true.""

I am a commercial breeder and I run Black Simmental and Black Angus bulls. I love the cross for many reasons. I am not a person with Angus roots as we had Simmental x Hereford cattle for years. I just think people should know why the gene has persisted. The rececssive gene could be bred out of the black cattle now due to the ease of testing but there is no real reason for this as there is now a way of registering these red animals.

Picking on Angus for doing funny things with their breeding is probably the last thing I would do as there color dates back longer than most breeds. I can't imagine where the black coat color in Simmental, Limousin, Charolais, and Gelbvieh came from. :wink: :wink:

 

[eatbeef]

North Ridge Ranching, i pry shouldnt pick on angus, i was wrong. Just had to have fun with it. And your right about the black in simmental, limi, char, and gelbv., but at least the simmental breed association acknowledges crossbreeding in the registrations. Do other breeds do these?

 

[North Ridge Ranching]

I don't know if the other breeds acknowledge crossbred or percentage animals. I have never really dealt with these other breeds. Would be interesting to know though. I used to be no different and I was awful good at picking on the Angus boys. I was very tentative about introducing them into our herd. I am however, very please with the way they have crossed with our traditional, and now Black Simmental genetics. I went this direction for a couple reasons but the biggest was economical, as I wanted to raise my own replacements and not give up any $/lb on the steers.

 

[LazyWP]

I know the Pinzgauer association used to allow anything over 5/8 bloods to be registered. You could have "fullboods" at 15/16. The purebreds were anything above that. But that has all been 30 years ago also.

 

[Soapweed]

About a fourth of our herd was red up until a few years ago. We dispersed all of our red cows, I think in the fall of 2007. Up until then, we bred the red cows to red bulls and the black cows to black bulls. The red calves that came from our black to black cross always fit right in with our red calves from the red herd. Looking back, we got out of the red cattle just about a year or two before they really got "hot." Oh well, the blacks tend to stay hot. :wink:

 

[Jake]

About a fourth of our herd was red up until a few years ago. We dispersed all of our red cows, I think in the fall of 2007. Up until then, we bred the red cows to red bulls and the black cows to black bulls. The red calves that came from our black to black cross always fit right in with our red calves from the red herd. Looking back, we got out of the red cattle just about a year or two before they really got "hot." Oh well, the blacks tend to stay hot. :wink:

Still wish I would have gotten a load or two of those bought. Looking back shoulda just bit the bullet and grabbed them ole girls up.

 

[Soapweed]

About a fourth of our herd was red up until a few years ago. We dispersed all of our red cows, I think in the fall of 2007. Up until then, we bred the red cows to red bulls and the black cows to black bulls. The red calves that came from our black to black cross always fit right in with our red calves from the red herd. Looking back, we got out of the red cattle just about a year or two before they really got "hot." Oh well, the blacks tend to stay hot. :wink:

Still wish I would have gotten a load or two of those bought. Looking back shoulda just bit the bullet and grabbed them ole girls up.

Were you at the sale?

 

[Jake]

About a fourth of our herd was red up until a few years ago. We dispersed all of our red cows, I think in the fall of 2007. Up until then, we bred the red cows to red bulls and the black cows to black bulls. The red calves that came from our black to black cross always fit right in with our red calves from the red herd. Looking back, we got out of the red cattle just about a year or two before they really got "hot." Oh well, the blacks tend to stay hot. :wink:

Still wish I would have gotten a load or two of those bought. Looking back shoulda just bit the bullet and grabbed them ole girls up.

Were you at the sale?

Nope, just pmed you and called you on them before you took them to the sale.

 

[gcreekrch]

There is no way a purebred angus bull would throw a red calf. I use simmental/angus cross bulls and only buy color tested homozygous black bulls and run on red cows and never end up with red calf. Getting red calves out of "purebred angus bulls" is how the angus breed ending up with muscle and frame.

Someone needs to do a little history lesson on the Red Angus breed. :wink:

The English knocked them in the head for a long time before they were accepted.

 

[Blkbuckaroo]

Great photos as usual,and congrats on becoming a grandpa as well

 

[Soapweed]

Great photos as usual,and congrats on becoming a grandpa as well

Thank you, kind sir. It is fun taking pictures, and being a grandpa.

 

[Faster horses]

There is no way a purebred angus bull would throw a red calf. I use simmental/angus cross bulls and only buy color tested homozygous black bulls and run on red cows and never end up with red calf. Getting red calves out of "purebred angus bulls" is how the angus breed ending up with muscle and frame.

Someone needs to do a little history lesson on the Red Angus breed. :wink:

The English knocked them in the head for a long time before they were accepted.

We were good friends with long-time Red Angus breeders, the Landreys (Roland and Bev), who raised Galena and sold him to ABS, many moons ago. Roland told me basically the same story, Gcreek. He said they hid the red ones out back until they realized what good cattle they were.