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Meatpacking and the Immigrant Workforce

This article points out the problems of trying to "cheat" the system and get
a comparative advantage in labor through illegal immigrants. You can see that Tyson was active in procuring illegals into this country for this advantage, seemingly with the blessing of the USA, and not being held accountable:

Line work in a packing plant does not require pre-existing job skills or knowledge of the English language, and it pays considerably more than other "unskilled labor." As a result it has attracted immigrant workers in larger numbers. And the packers themselves have also viewed immigrants as an attractive labor force. In the mid-1990s, for example, IBP went so far as to open a labor office in Mexico City (with the blessing of the Immigration and Naturalization Service) and pay recruits bus fare to the U.S. In 2006, Tyson's Lakeside beef plant in Brooks, Alberta, began bringing in temporary workers from China, the Philippines, El Salvador, and the Ukraine to staff its plant.



The meatpacking industry has a well-deserved reputation for hiring "illegal aliens," and anyone who is knowledgeable about the industry will readily admit that a significant number of its workers are unauthorized. But the question is, what kind of numbers does "significant" translate into? And that is a very difficult question to answer. Twenty-five percent (25%) is the number most often cited, but when you try to track down the evidence from which this figure derives, it seems to disappear into thin air.
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Why were they hiring illegal aliens?---suppressed wages:

Q. The industry currently employs a significant number of minorities including first generation immigrants from Southeast Asia, Latin America and Eastern Europe. It seems to be following an historical trend, stretching back well over 100 years. Why? Have "assimilated Americans" always refused to do these jobs?



A. In 1911, the US Immigration Commission estimated that 60 percent of meatpacking workers were foreign born. Today that figure is even higher. Why? There is no simple answer; however, much of it has to do with declining wages. Through the first half of the 20th century, meatpacking unions fought hard for improved working conditions and wages, and as a result an industrywide master contract was put in place that paid meatpacking workers 15 percent ABOVE the average manufacturing wage in 1960. The so-called IBP Revolution, which relocated and restructured the industry, dissolved the master contract, crippled the unions, and produced a steep decline in meatpacking wages, so that by 2002 they had fallen to 25 percent BELOW the average manufacturing wage.



During the mid 20th century, not only were wages and working conditions markedly better than they are today, but the workforce was composed in far greater numbers of native-born workers. And one of the reasons why the packers have aggressively recruited immigrants is because they believe that immigrants are not only good workers, but they also believe that they are more likely to accept lower wages and are less likely to organize.



Work on a meat or poultry processing line is hard, nasty work--and it is dangerous. Wages are better than in fast food or much of the service sector, but they are not good. For example, current wages at the Smithfield Tar Heel plant range from $7.50 to $13.00 an hour, with the typical pay in the $9-11 range. In terms of pay, pork plants generally pay somewhere between the scale for beef and poultry, so thy typical beef plant workers makes a little more, the typical line worker in a chicken plant a little less. With these working conditions and this pay scale, employee turnover is high--60-100 percent, even higher for new plants--but not as high as in fast food, where turnover often reaches 300 percent or more.



Given the above conditions, meatpacking work does not attract those persons--native born or immigrant--who have other options.



Q. The issue of undocumented workers has been with us for decades and, with the exception of the ill-fated Operation Vanguard in 1999 and raids on some Tyson poultry plants a few years ago, has been largely ignored by the U.S. Government. Whats behind the recent increased activity?



A. You are right. Unauthorized workers have become an integral--and growing--part of the US economy, and until the last year or two, the federal government paid little attention to it. Certainly the growing xenophobia that is a lasting legacy of September 11, 2001, is a contributing factor as has been the escalating rhetoric about securing our borders. This most recent interest can be traced to some degree to President Bush's 2004 proposal for a guest worker program and of course the campaign rhetoric of the 2006 midterm elections. I think that this most recent surge of nativism will subside in time, but not, I fear, as soon as it did after IRCA. And I am convinced that building walls between Mexico and the US or adding more and more Border Patrol officers are not the answer. As long as economic opportunity is stifled in Mexico and elsewhere in Latin America and other places in the "developing world," and as long as opportunities for economic betterment remain in the United States, people will find a way to come here. And how can we blame them--our ancestors did the same.
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Using market power to suppress the inputs has costs. Unfortunately, the people who are imposing these costs are being sheltered from having to pay for those costs by our system.

How much government money is being spent to combat illegal immigration while companies like Tyson are actively promoting it?

Why are they being sheltered by politicians? The answer is very simple.

Campaign money.
 
Econ

Using market power to suppress the inputs has costs. Unfortunately, the people who are imposing these costs are being sheltered from having to pay for those costs by our system.

Just what are you trying to say?

Everyone talks about the problem, but do you have a good answer?

Nah, bet you don't. I would be very anxious to hear anyone's solution to the labor situation in these packing plants. I've been in them numerous times and you can bet I'll do about anything before I work there. But I have other options.......some of these workers, do they have options????

Eager to read your answers....how 'bout ole Mike, too???
 
GLA said:
Econ

Using market power to suppress the inputs has costs. Unfortunately, the people who are imposing these costs are being sheltered from having to pay for those costs by our system.

Just what are you trying to say?

Everyone talks about the problem, but do you have a good answer?

Nah, bet you don't. I would be very anxious to hear anyone's solution to the labor situation in these packing plants. I've been in them numerous times and you can bet I'll do about anything before I work there. But I have other options.......some of these workers, do they have options????

Eager to read your answers....how 'bout ole Mike, too???
Click to expand...

If conditions are so bad that people don't want to work there, then they must be paid to make it worth it. That is what is being avoided by having illegal workers!
 
GLA said:
Econ

Using market power to suppress the inputs has costs. Unfortunately, the people who are imposing these costs are being sheltered from having to pay for those costs by our system.

Just what are you trying to say?

Everyone talks about the problem, but do you have a good answer?

Nah, bet you don't. I would be very anxious to hear anyone's solution to the labor situation in these packing plants. I've been in them numerous times and you can bet I'll do about anything before I work there. But I have other options.......some of these workers, do they have options????

Eager to read your answers....how 'bout ole Mike, too???
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GLA, Robert Mac has it right.

In a true free market economy, when you want more workers than what you are getting, you pay more and or make the conditions of work better.

Packers have been suppressing wages via immigrant workers and decreasing the working conditions. They can decrease the working conditions of illegal immigrants easier because the illegals have little choice and fear the retribution against them. That is why packers have hired them.

Just like the BSE fiasco, packers should have to pay for BSE damages and they should have to pay for illegal immigrant worker costs when they actively promote them from other countries. Why should the public let them off the hook and pay for these problems out of taxpayer or producer money?
 
So the solution to the problem is.....pay workers more money. How much more is enough to attract legal workers.....$20/hr......the drilling rigs are paying $25 and still can't attract enough workers............so is that working? The oil companies have the resources to pay more.........does the beef business have that kind of money....I don't think so!!

The packing industry is currently on course to mechanize as much of the processing as possible. However, there will still be a need for people to do some jobs. And my question, if they will pay RobertMac or Econ $20 and hour......will they work there??? Nope, so the whole industry will still need hourly labor willing to work for lower wages to do jobs YOU AND I will never do......try to legislate higher wages and watch what happens!!!

There are other options to control illegal immagration.............move a large packing plant to Mexico, just like what Tyson and a large US feeder are going to do in Argentina........bet that will stop some of the border crossings!!!!!
 
GLA said:
So the solution to the problem is.....pay workers more money. How much more is enough to attract legal workers.....$20/hr......the drilling rigs are paying $25 and still can't attract enough workers............so is that working? The oil companies have the resources to pay more.........does the beef business have that kind of money....I don't think so!!

The packing industry is currently on course to mechanize as much of the processing as possible. However, there will still be a need for people to do some jobs. And my question, if they will pay RobertMac or Econ $20 and hour......will they work there??? Nope, so the whole industry will still need hourly labor willing to work for lower wages to do jobs YOU AND I will never do......try to legislate higher wages and watch what happens!!!

There are other options to control illegal immagration.............move a large packing plant to Mexico, just like what Tyson and a large US feeder are going to do in Argentina........bet that will stop some of the border crossings!!!!!
Click to expand...


GLA, you can attract enough workers if you pay them enough and have good enough working conditions. If you can't do that, then you don't have a good business.


If you can't get enough workers in the energy fields at $25 per hour, then pay more. It is as easy as that. If you still can't get enough workers, advertise for workers at depressed cities where people want to find work. If you go to the north pole and offer a job for $1,000.00 per hour, you probably won't get any takers there either--there just isn't a labor pool up there. Advertise that where there is labor and you will probably get workers--if the working conditions don't kill them.

Businesses will exchange machinery for labor any time the exchange is profitable. With artificially low interest rates, more machinery will replace labor. If they can cheat the domestic labor force and not pay more to them and instead hire illegals, they will do it. It is up to our system of justice to stop this by making it not profitable. There are several lawsuits right now over this very subject. Unfortunately, many of the judges are former corporate lawyers, or they listen and do as those above them tell them, regardless of what the law says. These civil penalties by and large are not being paid.

I find it incredible that people will buy the argument that corporate executives need to be paid so much to get the best leaders and at the same time it doesn't apply to those they hire. It is the market for labor.
 
GLA said:
So the solution to the problem is.....pay workers more money. How much more is enough to attract legal workers.....$20/hr......the drilling rigs are paying $25 and still can't attract enough workers............so is that working? The oil companies have the resources to pay more.........does the beef business have that kind of money....I don't think so!!

The packing industry is currently on course to mechanize as much of the processing as possible. However, there will still be a need for people to do some jobs. And my question, if they will pay RobertMac or Econ $20 and hour......will they work there??? Nope, so the whole industry will still need hourly labor willing to work for lower wages to do jobs YOU AND I will never do......try to legislate higher wages and watch what happens!!!

There are other options to control illegal immigration.............move a large packing plant to Mexico, just like what Tyson and a large US feeder are going to do in Argentina........bet that will stop some of the border crossings!!!!!
Click to expand...


GLA, you can attract enough workers if you pay them enough and have good enough working conditions. If you can't do that, then you don't have a good business.


If you can't get enough workers in the energy fields at $25 per hour, then pay more. It is as easy as that. If you still can't get enough workers, advertise for workers at depressed cities where people want to find work. If you go to the north pole and offer a job for $1,000.00 per hour, you probably won't get any takers there either--there just isn't a labor pool up there. Advertise that where there is labor and you will probably get workers--if the working conditions don't kill them.

Businesses will exchange machinery for labor any time the exchange is profitable. With artificially low interest rates, more machinery will replace labor. If they can cheat the domestic labor force and not pay more to them and instead hire illegals, they will do it. It is up to our system of justice to stop this by making it not profitable. There are several lawsuits right now over this very subject. Unfortunately, many of the judges are former corporate lawyers, or they listen and do as those above them tell them, regardless of what the law says. These civil penalties by and large are not being paid.

I find it incredible that people will buy the argument that corporate executives need to be paid so much to get the best leaders and at the same time it doesn't apply to those they hire.

There are other options to control labor wage suppression in the U.S. That is to not allow cheap labor from overseas to replace them---especially if we are running a trade deficit.

Unfortunately, cheap labor overseas allows politicians and corporations to get away with more irresponsibility. Smart republicans know that.
 
GLA writes:[So the solution to the problem is.....pay workers more money. How much more is enough to attract legal workers.....$20/hr......the drilling rigs are paying $25 and still can't attract enough workers............so is that working? The oil companies have the resources to pay more.........does the beef business have that kind of money....I don't think so!!]

Attracting workers in the oil field is no problem. Attracting qualified workers is a problem. What are the qualifications?……You have to have a pulse and pass a urine test! Same with the shortage of truck drivers in my area. It scares the hell out of you to hear of 50 applicants & only 5 are accepted because the rest cannot pass a urine test. Geeze! The % of people on drugs is downright scary!

7 guys walked off of a local rig about 2 months ago because of a surprise urine test. They quit before they had to take the test as they didn't want the results on their record and several were on probation.
I have not yet read the article linked. I just wanted to comment on the oil field workers as I have many friends and family working in the local oil patch & also have friends trying to hire truck drivers. (local, home every night!)

A company that knowingly hires illegal workers because they say its the only help they can get, would be no different than the oil field or truck owners overlooking the results or skipping the drug tests, driving record, etc. Does the fact that they need workers justify this? :???:
 
My question is-- What should we do? Just throw out all we've built over the years to develop as civilized nation, so that we can be a worldwide free trader- like immigration laws, drug testing, inspection of foods for the populace/consumer, laws to protect our domestic agricultural products? Should we just give the corporate world free run- buyer beware? Many times because of inadequacy or lack of labeling laws with no info provided them to make informed or to verify nonfraudulent claims? LIKE PASSING OFF IMPORTED MEAT PRODUCTS AS US PRODUCT... :wink: :( :mad:
 
An undocumented Illegal worker is somewhat like an unlicensed pharmacist!!!!

Create jobs and opportunities in Mexico and the illegals will stay at home. Until someone does that, expect the infiltration to get worse........there is no place in the US now where there is not an illegal working, fact.
 
Apparently the terms legal & illegal have different meanings in Texas as they do in my part of the country. As I am here to learn, I would like to see your definition of 'illegal' GLA. Is it legal when something benefits you & illegal when it doesn't?

Last summer we had a bad hail storm go through my part of the country. A roofing outfit from Texas came into town and cut the price of shingling by over 50%. The local roofing contractors were licensed, bonded, & insured. They paid workmens comp, unemployment, taxes, ect. The Texas outfit had 9 illegals. They paid cash & nothing else. Now don't tell me they couldn't get anyone else to do the work! There are plenty of locals here that were willing to work. Is your solution to build houses in Mexico so they will have roofs to put on there and they wouldn't have to come here?

Your statement [there is no place in the US now where there is not an illegal working, fact.]
So in Texas, its OK to do things illegal as long as others are doing it? The terms legal & illegal have no meaning or usefulness there? Or are they used when it is convenient? I will be gone for most of the day, but look forward to being enlightened!
 
Lou Dobbs had this to say on the subject;

NEW YORK (CNN) -- What a spectacle, what a mess. What a day for thousands and thousands of illegal aliens and their supporters to march through the streets of many of our biggest cities demanding amnesty for illegally entering the country.

Tuesday was given over to illegal aliens and their supporters to demand forgiveness for using fraudulent documents and assisting others in entering this country illegally. What a day for illegal aliens and their supporters to demand not only amnesty but also the end to immigration raids and an end to deportations.

May Day was a peculiar choice for those demonstrations, a day in many countries in which international socialism is celebrated and a reminder of those old Soviet Union military parades.

It was also an unfortunate and ironic choice on the part of the organizers of the demonstrations. May 1 in the United States is actually Law Day, a day first established by President Eisenhower in 1958 and ultimately codified into law in 1961 at the beginning of John F. Kennedy's administration. The purpose of Law Day is to give all Americans an opportunity to reflect on our legal heritage, and by statute, encourages "the cultivation of the respect for law that is so vital to the democratic way of life."

I'll bet you know about the illegal alien amnesty marches, but I don't know of a single news organization, electronic or print that pointed out that May 1 is America's Law Day. The cable news networks gave almost wall-to-wall coverage to the illegal alien demonstrations, but they apparently couldn't find any American celebrating Law Day.

And no one seems to want to take note that we are first a nation of laws, and that without those laws and their enforcement, the foundation of our great republic turns to sand. What a spectacle on Law Day for demonstrators to demand amnesty for those who broke the law to enter our country, many of whom also broke the law with fraudulent documents.

And what a mess when the president of the United States and the U.S. Congress are pandering to a group of people who are not citizens and refuse to demand enforcement of our immigration laws, our criminal laws, and fails to secure our borders and ports.

I couldn't help but wonder as I watched monitors bringing images of the marches and demonstrations from all across the country, who should really be protesting on May Day. What about the millions of legal residents who followed the long, drawn-out process to secure a visa to enter the United States lawfully? Maybe they should be protesting. What about the seven-figure backlog at the Citizenship and Immigration Services agency of people who are following the rules. Should they demonstrate?

What about all of our fellow Americans who are being marginalized by the massive importation of illegal, low-cost and mostly uneducated labor into this country? Perhaps those citizens should take to the streets. And what about the more than 250 million Americans who make up our middle class and those who aspire to it whose wages have stagnated and who are paying for the social, medical and economic costs of illegal immigration? That's a big march.

If yesterday's demonstrators and their supporters in Congress and corporate America are serious about their deep desire for American citizenship, why don't we hear any of them clearly say they're willing to give up dual citizenship? Or that they're willing to learn English and surrender demands of bilingual education? Or declare they embrace English as our official national language? Or demand that illegal employers of illegal aliens pay for the social, educational and medical costs now borne by the taxpayers?

Yesterday was Law Day. I hope that we celebrate Law Day with a great national enthusiasm next May 1. I guarantee you I'll march in that demonstration
 
GLA said:
An undocumented Illegal worker is somewhat like an unlicensed pharmacist!!!!

Create jobs and opportunities in Mexico and the illegals will stay at home. Until someone does that, expect the infiltration to get worse........there is no place in the US now where there is not an illegal working, fact.
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You are right about that, GLA. Instead of having trade policies that promote a better and more fair economy in Mexico, we have promoted a trade policy that takes advantage of the Mexican people under their backwards system. It is even worse for China.
 

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