My cattle troubles...

[Angus Cattle Shower]

Well, showed my Reg. Angus heifer in the local show as a cow (she lost her calf, so she had a big disadvantage...) and she wom Grand Champion cow, and 3rd overall female. My other Reg. heifer was very bitc**, so couldnt show her. So now I got an open heifer, (yes, she is going into silent heat) a bred cow that I bought as my 4-h heifer last year that lost the calf. I kept her because she was the Grand Champion Angus Yearling heifer in Saskatoon at the Prarieland Jr. Ag. Showcase. A bred heifer theat is acting up, and a simmie/angus steer that I need to sell, but cant for a good price at the sale for 4-h because im leaving tomorrow eve., or Wednesday. :? , so if youknow anyone near saskatoon, or an hour away from humboldt, tell me...

 

[elwapo]

Congrats on your win shower. I have a question for you though. Do you think that a purebred cow that has lost a calf is what the breed needs? I think this is a question that all purebred breeders should consider. Just because a cow is phenotypically perfect it does not indicate that the breed will benefit from the promotion of that genetic line, especially when she cannot produce and raise a calf. This is also a problem with show winning bulls that make the semen sales catalogues and do the breed a disservice genetically. I think it is encumbent upon all breeders to sellect for production in the same way they do for eye appeal.

 

[Angus Cattle Shower]

I think that is a very good question, but it was not the cow's fault. It was killed by other reasons non-related to disease, or cattle.
I think that also the "show stopper" bulls are a threat to the breed for the reason that if everyone produces show cattle, there won't be as much focus on quality, but a focus on quantity. I purchased these females because of their dam, sire, and their looks/epd's/ size. I showed them as 4-H cattle because my parents wanted me to be able to have a very good future.
Last night i looked at a cow/calf pair. I am thinking about buying them. calf is a Triple Threat calf, and a totally cross pedigree. (Ithink that is what you call a completely different bloodline)

 

[Sandhusker]

I've got my foot in the show cattle business as well. It's a different kind of racket. The biggest thing that I'm not real proud of is that too many of the bulls used aren't worth a nickel to the commercial man. They throw too big of calves, they're too straight, etc.... Many of those bloodlines should be eliminated - instead they're trying to clone them!

 

[Angus Cattle Shower]

I've got my foot in the show cattle business as well. It's a different kind of racket. The biggest thing that I'm not real proud of is that too many of the bulls used aren't worth a nickel to the commercial man. They throw too big of calves, they're too straight, etc.... Many of those bloodlines should be eliminated - instead they're trying to clone them!

Correct, but there is that small bracket of bulls that are good, like T.J. Amigo V615, and Vermillion Dateline 7078 (VRD).
P.S. What breed(s) do you show Sandhusker, and which bloodlines?

 

[Faster horses]

I'll probably put my neck in a noose, but I don't like Triple Threat cattle. Not for our country for sure. Their numbers are good, but the cattle aren't. They have that Cornhusker rear end and they are big and hard-doing.

FWIW~and it didn't cost a cent for my opinion and that is just what it might be worth to you.

 

[Angus Cattle Shower]

Faster Horses,
The Triple Threat Cattle that I have are very, very good. I usually don't look at their b/l, but the guy that I will be buying her from, (Craig Thoms) said that they worked for him, and now they are working for me. I got one heifer (Triple Threat Grand Daughter,) bred to Crescent Creek Quantum 79M.
What Angus bull (red or black) does everyone use?

 

[Faster horses]

I don't understand your comment that you don't look at their b/l~I don't know what you are referring to. Please explain.

The hot bull around this area is Traveler 004~SAV 8180 Traveler 004 to be exact. There are plenty of others, of course. The 004's averaged about $9600 at Schaff's this spring, if my memory serves me correctly. From what I can find out, they are extremely good structured cattle, and moderate in size (whatever 'moderate' means anymore.)

We are not into 'fad' or number cattle, more in to structural soundness which many breeders seem to have left at the gate in their quest for high EPD numbers.

And as far as I am concerned, we have a looming trouble spot in that Angus cattle are getting too big. Look in the stud books, the mature Angus bulls are outweighing the Simmentals.

Raise a bull out of an 1800# cow, breed it to a 1400# cow and what happens to size?

Yep, you got it. And that is what is happening out there. SCARY!

 

[Angus Cattle Shower]

b/l = bloodlines
I try to focus on producing bulls, and females that will work for the producer, both commercial, and purebred. Now I think most people are trying to get their bulls in to semen books, or $100, 000.00 bulls.It takes More then" The Bull" To have an industry.
I like to focus on quality, not quantity.
What are some good bloodlines that are working for everyone? What do you think of Crescent Creek Quantum 79M?

 

[Mike]

I don't understand your comment that you don't look at their b/l~I don't know what you are referring to. Please explain.

The hot bull around this area is Traveler 004~SAV 8180 Traveler 004 to be exact. There are plenty of others, of course. The 004's averaged about $9600 at Schaff's this spring, if my memory serves me correctly. From what I can find out, they are extremely good structured cattle, and moderate in size (whatever 'moderate' means anymore.)

We are not into 'fad' or number cattle, more in to structural soundness which many breeders seem to have left at the gate in their quest for high EPD numbers.

And as far as I am concerned, we have a looming trouble spot in that Angus cattle are getting too big. Look in the stud books, the mature Angus bulls are outweighing the Simmentals.

Raise a bull out of an 1800# cow, breed it to a 1400# cow and what happens to size?

Yep, you got it. And that is what is happening out there. SCARY!

FH- Better than weight for your analogy, you might be better to use frame score. If I have an 1800# cow that is a frame of 6 and one with a frame of 9 with same weight, I would definitely keep the 6 FS because of depth, width, and muscling. Problem is......many don't calculate Frame scores and/or do it properly.
Angus shot the frame scores up thru the years because of growth, pure and simple. A small frame calf can't keep up with a larger one in that category. Packers don't start docking until the carcass gets to over 950#, that's a BIG calf.
Me, I'd rather have pounds and yield grades than all that fat from those tiny framed calves.
But then again, we all know about "opinions"! Cows that work in your environment is where it's at. If bigger cows work in other environments, then buy bulls from YOUR part of the world. :wink:

 

[Faster horses]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how you can produce bulls without looking at bloodlines. That is my main focus when buying bulls. Let me tell you a little story of why I think bloodlines are so important.

We bought some registered cows from some folks and they were really nice cows. They would sell off every three years because they could only run so many cows. We bought them one year and they called the next year to sell more, which suprised us, as they usually only sold every three years and they sold older cows. This time they had young cows for sale. We looked at the cattle and they just weren't the same as what we had been used to. They were all daughters of an Angus growth bull called Fairfield Hi-Guy. I asked if they kept the cattle, what would they breed them to? They answered without a bit of hesitation, "Schearbrook Shoshone." If you are familiar with Angus bloodlines you will know that Shearbrook Shoshone was the No. 1 milk bull in the breed at that time. What they had done was breed the milk right out of the cows using Fairfield Hi-Guy.

We passed on the heifers.

And that was my first lesson in bloodlines.

 

[Angus Cattle Shower]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how you can produce bulls without looking at bloodlines..

Sorry if I mislead you, but I meant when I am buying my heifers or cows, because we mostly do A.I.. We do look at the bloodlines of bulls. when buying anything, we do ask if there is any in breeding.

 

[Sandhusker]

I've got my foot in the show cattle business as well. It's a different kind of racket. The biggest thing that I'm not real proud of is that too many of the bulls used aren't worth a nickel to the commercial man. They throw too big of calves, they're too straight, etc.... Many of those bloodlines should be eliminated - instead they're trying to clone them!

Correct, but there is that small bracket of bulls that are good, like T.J. Amigo V615, and Vermillion Dateline 7078 (VRD).
P.S. What breed(s) do you show Sandhusker, and which bloodlines?

This will be the first year that we actually show any - my daughter is finally old enough. We usually sell our calves to steer jocks who then resell them. Some go to direct buyers. We generally use Maine compostite bulls - them dang straight Angus don't have any butts! :wink:

 

[Murgen]

Sandhusker, if you do want to use some Angus try Shower's recomendation of VRD, lots of butt! FR, Ankonian Cornhusker, haven't heard that one in awhile, but I have seen some good ones.

One thing when US and Canadian producers are talking about Genetics that work in their herds, you have to remember that on average, the Canadian cows are a little bigger. I have heard many a cow man say that "they get bigger as you go North". We can handle a little more BW, when it comes to EPD's, but don't forget balance.

Mike's comment is very valid, remember your environment, and I know here in Ontario, (drought is rare) we can provide the grass for those high milkers, putting on WW. So what will work for one area, will not work for another.

It's too bad that their has not been more work done on feed conversion, and an EPD for the same. WW is one example. You always hear about heavier WW, but what did it take in feed? and here in Canada, where the heavy feed is done in the winter months, that matters!

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how you can produce bulls without looking at bloodlines. That is my main focus when buying bulls. Let me tell you a little story of why I think bloodlines are so important.

We bought some registered cows from some folks and they were really nice cows. They would sell off every three years because they could only run so many cows. We bought them one year and they called the next year to sell more, which suprised us, as they usually only sold every three years and they sold older cows. This time they had young cows for sale. We looked at the cattle and they just weren't the same as what we had been used to. They were all daughters of an Angus growth bull called Fairfield Hi-Guy. I asked if they kept the cattle, what would they breed them to? They answered without a bit of hesitation, "Schearbrook Shoshone." If you are familiar with Angus bloodlines you will know that Shearbrook Shoshone was the No. 1 milk bull in the breed at that time. What they had done was breed the milk right out of the cows using Fairfield Hi-Guy.

We passed on the heifers.

And that was my first lesson in bloodlines.

Exact Case in Point regarding EPD's! :!: It seems that most breedersf have it in their mind that they have to breed for "HIGH" EPD's. WRONG!! EPD's are used so that one may select for exactly what they need for the FUTURE mamma cows, and HIGH EPD's on everything is NOT what you want to concentrate on. We are getting into so many EPD's right now it is like 'Alphabet Soup"! You don't have to go back to Schearbrook Shoshone to get good milk EPD's. Sheeesshhh!

 

[Faster horses]

Agreed, you don't have to go back to Schearbrook Shoshone to get milk, but AT THAT TIME he was the No. 1 milk bull in the Angus breed.

Personally, I don't like high milk EPD bulls either. In our country, TOO MUCH MILK can cause you problems, like rebreeding. It costs a lot to maintain a superior milking cow. We haven't selected for milk, EVER and we have plenty of milk in our cows. They are good uddered cows and the calves will gain 3 lb./day on average on their mothers during the summer. That means the cow is milking really good, maybe a little too good. So you get a 1500# cow, whether she is a frame score 5 or 6 or 7, and if she milks too good, she probably eats a lot; winter and summer.

Balance and moderation is the name of the game, IMHO! And don't forget dispositon. That is one of the most important traits for us. We just can't have wild cattle on our ma and pa operation. LOL!!

As far as high numbers go, those bulls with extreme EPD's will not breed back to themselves, but instead will breed to average of that line of cattle. Outliers are just that.

We try to watch cow families and choose bulls from good cow families. We pick the bull more from the cow than we do the sire. Weird, aren't we? But we do have an awfully nice set of Angus cows and we haven't paid real high prices for bulls, ever. So it is working for us, so far. We could stub our toe, though. We select for maternal and not growth, yet our calves have plentry of 'grow' as the same feeder buys them every year.

It is kind of like walking a tightrope and bloodlines are like vehicles. People like and look for different things.

 

[Sandhusker]

Murgen, "Sandhusker, if you do want to use some Angus try Shower's recomendation of VRD, lots of butt! FR, Ankonian Cornhusker, haven't heard that one in awhile, but I have seen some good ones. "

Thanks for the tip. I don't know a whole lot on Angus sires - there's so dang many of them. We generally just use Angus on first calf heifers so we're not expecting much of a calf (for showing, anyway). It would be nice to have a shot at one that would make the cut.