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My hat is off to a Navada Rancher: Larry "Dudley"

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alabama

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I don't know how of the the court rulled but I hope this guy wins.
It seems that he broke no law but was arested just becouse he would not give police his name. It is about time we let the police know that the people have a right to privevy.



http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/03/23/police.id/index.html
 
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Anonymous

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Alabama- I'll bet he loses...I understand under the Homeland Security provisions Congress is now setting up a "National ID Card"-- under the guise of making all drivers licenses and licensing requirements comparable between states.....Next under this New World Order we will all have chips in OUR ears- Won't even be able to pay a bill or buy something without looking into a retinal scanner to see if we are really who we think we are :? .....
 

alabama

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Aint it a shame? I guess George Orwell knew it all the time.
When or where will it stop?
 

mtn_90

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I think it's a shame...and a sham. I know a few officers who are very honest and good individuals. I also know a few who just like to find out things about people because they like the "power" it gives them.

I personally think that they shouldn't have the right to ask your name absent probable cause for asking it. It appears that in this case they did have probable cause because of the call about him arguing with his daughter. How were the police to know this wasn't some sort of abusive or family kidnapping going on? In this case, it isn't like they just saw him stopped where he was, pulled up and demanded to know who he was. There was a citizens complaint on him, so I too think he'll lose the case with the Supreme Court.

But I think the Supreme Court will decide the case based on the wrong set of facts and it will set a new precedent that will open a can of worms this country has yet to see.
 

Brad S

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This is an old case and we all lost. Modern America is a shameful excuse undeserving the liberties passed down by our founding fathers.

The court finds leo can demand a neutral act without probable cause. JUMPING JACKS are also a neutral act with regards to selfincrimination so I guess its ok if some bigbellied sheriff with the IQ of a house plant demands we do jumping jacks.
 

nr

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Let's see now. Most of you live surrounded by no people.
All of you have guns for protection.

But most Americans, like me, live surrounded by people, some of whom are :mad: The Bad Guys :mad: .
To have a sane society we are thankful for police.
In the cities the police are plenty busy just doing their dangerous jobs without stopping people just to be nosey. Actually, every time they stop someone they put themselves at risk.

"Probable cause" is a reasonable safeguard. Requiring a name is a reasonable demand. The alternative is anarchy.
 

Faster horses

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A friend of ours is employed at the Mt. State Prison. He says that now you have to say, "Mr.--------" when you address an inmate.

Also, they get extensive dental and medical work done on taxpayer money.

How about that for foolishness?

And what about the meth users that are incarcinated and their health is shot because of their drug use? Guess who is going to pay for that?

Thank you ACLU.
 

Soapweed

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nr: " 'Probable cause' is a reasonable safeguard. Requiring a name is a reasonable demand. The alternative is anarchy."

Good points, nr.

I don't like "big brother" snooping over my shoulder anymore than the next guy, but requiring a name is a reasonable demand. If I pick up a hitch-hiker, when they jump in the pickup, one of the first questions asked of them is, "what is your name?" They don't necessarily have to give me their right and real name, but some kind of "handle" is in order. If two complete strangers meet and strike up a conversation, it isn't long before they introduce themselves and tell each other their names. It is considered common courtesy.

During wartime situations, if a soldier is captured by an enemy force, it is required that the captive soldier gives out his name, rank, and serial number. Any deviation from this would be considered an offense of the Military Code of Conduct, Article V, and would be cause for punishment.

When a friendly animal, be it dog, cat or horse, approaches a person, it is a common occurance for the approachee to speak softly to the approacher and whisper, "Well, what's your name, big boy?"

A name is really the only thing anyone "takes to the grave" with them when they die. Everyone has opportunity to make their name a good one, or soil it beyond repair.

Somehow, asking a person their name doesn't seem to be a great intrusion of their privacy. If a person isn't proud enough of their name to give it out willingly when asked, that person doesn't have too much to be proud of and would probably bear watching.

My hat is NOT off to the Nevada cattle rancher who did not willingly give out his name to the police officer. For one thing, it wasn't like he was just getting out of his car, Bible in hand, ready to cross the street to go to church. He was, in fact, having a heated argument with a female passenger in his automobile. Another onlooker summoned the police, for good reason, because there was potential for violence.

My hat is NOT off to the Nevada cattle rancher. It is guys like him, who use extreme measures to fight a "non-issue" which does, in fact, create precedence for taking away citizens rights on actual and real issues. People like him, whether wittingly or unwittingly, just accomplish screwing things up for decent law-abiding citizens.

My hat is NOT off to the Nevada cattle rancher. He tends to give all cattle ranchers everywhere a bad image. It is not too much to ask to have a person give out their name.

P.S. Hate to admit it, but Soapweed is not my real name. :wink:
 

Brad S

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Soapweed, you are a bigger man than me. If I were busy talking with my daughter and a sheriff demanded "my papers," I'd tell him to enforce any law I was infracting otherwise I'll exorcize the freedom to dirrect my attention elsewhere.


Soapweed, once I picked up a hitchiker that started to pull a knife. Before he clreared his pocket, my dog had him by the throat. Perhaps he was only going to clean his fingernails, but I didn't wait to see. I hog tied the guy and went to the sheriff's department, and sure enough, he was wanted in several states. I got a winking reprimand about wrapping a pigging string that tight for a 20 minute trip.
 
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Brad S said:
Soapweed, you are a bigger man than me. If I were busy talking with my daughter and a sheriff demanded "my papers," I'd tell him to enforce any law I was infracting otherwise I'll exorcize the freedom to dirrect my attention elsewhere.


Soapweed, once I picked up a hitchiker that started to pull a knife. Before he clreared his pocket, my dog had him by the throat. Perhaps he was only going to clean his fingernails, but I didn't wait to see. I hog tied the guy and went to the sheriff's department, and sure enough, he was wanted in several states. I got a winking reprimand about wrapping a pigging string that tight for a 20 minute trip.

Brad S- reminds me of many years ago when I got called to a border town to pick up a young drunk Canadian kid that had tried to steal the shake a day money out from behind the bar- patrons had ran him down-captured him -- the town Marshal was holding him for me...He was really on the fight by the time I got there (don't think the locals were too nice to him for trying to steal their gambling money)- I handcuffed him behind the back and loaded him in the Suburban I was driving and seatbelted him in- He then proceeded to try to kick out my windshield, dash and anything else he could reach with his feet... I had a female deputy with me and so took the lariat rope I pack for brand inspecting- put the loop around his legs, ran it under the seat and had her hold from the back seat-- He continued to raise H*ll and she wasn't strong enough to hold his legs so I just took the tail of the rope up the back of the seat and made a loop around his neck- then she rode in the back seat and could hold the tail with no problems........By the time the 60 mile ride back to the county seat was over, he was pretty docile :lol: .....
 

Soapweed

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When I was in basic training in Fort Ord, back in 1972, I hitch-hiked a fair bit. One time there were five of us who rode a bus to San Juan Bautista. We looked the old mission over for a couple hours, and there wasn't another bus until late afternoon. We decided to hitch-hike back to Salinas, and stood out along the highway for a considerable time. Finally a pickup stopped and the driver said he was only going part way to Salinas but we could ride in the back if we wanted. We jumped in, and soon he deposited us along the interstate. Cars were zipping by at 70 m.p.h. and we knew our chances were slim to none of anybody stopping to give us a ride.

All of us considered ourselves to be cowboys, and were decked out in hats and boots. A couple of the guys were wearing sunglasses. I suggested that maybe if they took them off, we wouldn't look so "shady" and undesirable to pick up. It didn't work. We walked at least ten miles on in to Salinas, and as we trudged along, the bus that we could have ridden passed by and beat us to town by an hour. Since we had the next day off also, we decided to spend the night at a very low budget, two dollar per night motel. I recall propping a chair in under the door knob because it just seemed the thing to do.

Anyway, I have done enough hitch-hiking that I somewhat consider it my debt to society to pay back the rides that were given to me when I needed them. Usually the riders are polite and appreciative, and just down on their luck.
 

Mike

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I remember lots of hitch hikers in the 50's and 60's. We called 'em "Hobo's" and many were truly down on their luck. My dad picked one up one morning and he asked my dad for work. He worked for us for about 10 years til his health got bad.
Lots of difference in those "Hobo's" and the homeless today. Many today are druggies, etc. and wouldn't work in a pie factory.

My dad would "ALWAYS" pick up a man in uniform.
 

Soapweed

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A few years ago, a man was travelling pretty light and walking westward as my son and I were going into town. The road ahead was under construction, and it seemed like a good idea to give the hitch-hiker a ride to keep him out from underfoot of the highway workers. We let him ride in front with us and later dropped him off at the gas station. He hung around town the rest of the day, camped in the park, and headed out walking the next morning.

Meanwhile the next morning, a local rancher was pulling bulls from his summer pastures. A couple girl ranch-hands who had helped him all summer bale hay were horseback and helping to get the bulls away from the cows. The three cowhands had left a pickup and gooseneck stock trailer near the highway. When they returned a couple hours later, the pickup was gone. Tracks showed that whoever had tried to drive away had gotten stuck. The trailer had then been unhooked and the pickup was absconded with and gone.

The pickup was declared missing, and the law looked for it for quite some time. About three months later, the vehicle was found abandoned at Maverick Junction, in the southern Black Hills. Putting two and two together, it was determined that the hitch-hiker I hauled to town the preceeding day was the culprit. Had I not hauled him to town, the outcome would probably not have been different, but it makes a person wonder.
***********************

Another time, I was going to Valentine driving a pickup pulling a 24' stock trailer. Twelve cows were on the load. As I neared Kilgore, a pedestrian had his hand in the air seeking a ride eastward. With my big load, it took a bit of doing to get slowed down to give him a ride. As I was almost stopped, a quick visual appraisal confirmed the fact that the hitch-hiker was slobbering drunk. My gracious good nature soured in a hurry, and I decided to not give him a ride after all. Just as he was reaching to open the door of the pickup, I stepped down hard on the accelerator and gunned old Betsy. We were skeedaddling as fast as possible, and the drunk was wobble-running along behind trying to jump on the running board of the trailer. I won the race, but kinda felt bad about my good intentions gone awry. It did probably prevent the pickup from getting puked upon. :???: :? :)
 

Northern Rancher

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I find this to be beyond ludicrous-the fact that somebody would waste the courts time with such a frivolous matter baffles me-just tell me how the police are supposed to do their jobs without such basic information. Put yourselves in the officers shoes-how do you explain that you investigated a complaint without finding out the guys name. Is the United States society totally obsessed with providing lawyers with a steady source of income.
 

Mike

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I'm not taking sides either way because I don't know the immediate circumstances well enough.
But..................police officers can sometimes try to push their importance on people just as some law breakers can be extremely suspicious.
There were probably ways to get the man's identity (license plate, etc.) and not cost the taxpayers and arm and a leg.
Appears both sides were being hard-headed and childish.
 

DOC HARRIS

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Northern Rancher said:
I find this to be beyond ludicrous-the fact that somebody would waste the courts time with such a frivolous matter baffles me-just tell me how the police are supposed to do their jobs without such basic information. Put yourselves in the officers shoes-how do you explain that you investigated a complaint without finding out the guys name. Is the United States society totally obsessed with providing lawyers with a steady source of income.
YES! :mad: Again - "Don't Get Me Started On THAT Subject!" :twisted:
 

DOC HARRIS

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Mike said:
I'm not taking sides either way because I don't know the immediate circumstances well enough.
But..................police officers can sometimes try to push their importance on people just as some law breakers can be extremely suspicious.
There were probably ways to get the man's identity (license plate, etc.) and not cost the taxpayers and arm and a leg.
Appears both sides were being hard-headed and childish.
Mike - This is usually the case. Seldom is it 'one-sided' only!
 

alabama

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The point is more to the trouble of law enforcement over stepping the rights of people. I know the young whippier snappers we have working our small town, about 20 of them, think they can do just as they dang well please. And the local judge backs them up. If you can afford to hire a lawyer and take it to the county judge, most junk is just thrown out of court. But the city judge is going to make every one pay court cost and a fine to help pay all the cops we have in town. I rode through town yesterday and counted six cop cars in a 3-mile stretch. They have nothing to do and get board so they pull people over just to have something to do.
A quick example: The son of a friend of mine who lives outside the city limits and does not get to vote for the city judge had some trouble last year. The 18-year-old kid was driving through town one evening and another car was following him. As they reached the edge of the police jurisdiction on the far edge of town the trailing car floored it and passed my friends son. City police saw this and tried to follow the speeding car. They had some trouble getting around the car of my friend’s son due to oncoming traffic and no shoulder for him to pull off on and get out of the way. The police did finely get around him and continued the pursuit. The police were not able to catch the speeding car. They stopped about 5 miles outside the police jurisdiction. And were standing in the road when my friend’s son drove up. The police flagged him down and ask him who was driving the speeding car. He told them that he had no idea and they let him go. My friend’s son continued and stopped at the house of the speeding car. A few minutes later, the police also arrived at this house, which is about 10 miles outside the police jurisdiction. The young boy (17) that was driving the speeding car was arrested as well as my friend’s son. The young boy was taken to Montgomery to the juvenile facility and my friend’s son was taken to the city jail where he spent the night and was not allowed to contact his parents until 8:00 AM the following morning. He was charged with “Obstructing Government Operations” and told that it was because he had lied to police when he was stopped the first time.
My friend was outraged and went to bail his son out at the cost of $500. He also hired a lawyer and went to court. The lawyer argued that lying to the police was not a crime and that they could not prove that the boy did actually know who was driving the other car. The arresting officer stated that the young man was a good boy and in collage and had never been in any trouble and was very surprised that this had happened. The judge did not convict but she did make the young man pat court cost of almost $300. The total cost to my friend was $600 for the lawyer and $300 in court cost plus a night searching for his i8 year old son who spent the night in jail.
He did not take it any further since the young man was not convicted. I felt he should have sued the city but he just wanted out. And feared further harassment by the police.

On another incident, the city police stopped a car full of teenagers (minors) in town. I think there were six kids in the car and all had been drinking except the driver. When the police stopped the car, they drug all the kids out and had them face down on the ground with guns drawn. I think the city got six court fees but no fines since the stop was not legal. That was the end of that. The parents made the kids work off the court fees. The trouble I had with it is that the city police are going to shoot someone for something minor with there “do as they dang well please attitude.” And a judge that will not reprimand over aggressive young cops.
 

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