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NCBA Wants more USDA/GIPSA Oversight

  • Thread starter Thread starter Anonymous
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Scott...USDA has told you they need a valid traceback system to enforce your law.

Did you just make this up Scott, or do you have inside info that no one else has? All the meetings I ever went to about traceback is for tracing a disease and nothing to do with Country of Origin Labeling.
 
Tommy said:
Scott...USDA has told you they need a valid traceback system to enforce your law.

Did you just make this up Scott, or do you have inside info that no one else has? All the meetings I ever went to about traceback is for tracing a disease and nothing to do with Country of Origin Labeling.
Click to expand...

Don't fool yourself Tommy. In Canada "WE" meaning the industry took the lead on a traceback for disease program and now the Feds are pushing for traceability and tracking movement. The only real leverage we have is it is our system and they have to prove it will work with out impeding commerce to move forward on track movement.
 
That very well may be BMR, but the traceback law (NAIS)they tried to get going here had nothing to do with Country of Origin Labeling. The USDA has never said they needed NAIS for that purpose either. That was my point with Scott.
 
Tommy,

It's really quite simple. USDA stated early in the game that the only way to prove where an animal is "BORN, RAISED, AND PROCESSED" IN AN ENFORCEABLE MANNER is with a valid traceback system. You "M"COOL advocates insisted on proving that an animal had to be "BORN, RAISED, AND PROCESSED" in the US before it could be considered US BEEF or did you forget that part? You can't prove origination without a valid enforceable traceback system. How difficult is that to understand? "M"COOL proponents did not support a valid enforceable traceback system therefore we have "CAN-MEX-USA" labels which are worthless. Just like the law.

The reason traceback has nothing to do with Country of Origin labeling is because "M"COOL is an uneforceable joke, no traceback system was needed. That's why you have "CAN-MEX-USA" beef labels.

You got the law you deserved Tommy.


~SH~
 
If one can know the country of origin of any animal in the packer's lot, why do you need any system that goes back any further than that? YOU DON'T!
 
So, SH, are the cattle coming across the border clandestinely with the illegal immigrants? Perhaps the illegal immigrants are riding them over!

Something Sandhusker said about clowns comes to mind when I see your post, SH. Perhaps I should remember that advice that was given.

Tex


~SH~ said:
Tommy,

It's really quite simple. USDA stated early in the game that the only way to prove where an animal is "BORN, RAISED, AND PROCESSED" IN AN ENFORCEABLE MANNER is with a valid traceback system. You "M"COOL advocates insisted on proving that an animal had to be "BORN, RAISED, AND PROCESSED" in the US before it could be considered US BEEF or did you forget that part? You can't prove origination without a valid enforceable traceback system. How difficult is that to understand? "M"COOL proponents did not support a valid enforceable traceback system therefore we have "CAN-MEX-USA" labels which are worthless. Just like the law.

The reason traceback has nothing to do with Country of Origin labeling is because "M"COOL is an uneforceable joke, no traceback system was needed. That's why you have "CAN-MEX-USA" beef labels.

You got the law you deserved Tommy.


~SH~
Click to expand...
 
Sandhusker: "If one can know the country of origin of any animal in the packer's lot, why do you need any system that goes back any further than that? YOU DON'T!"
Click to expand...

Because you are not tracking cattle to their country of origin, you are tracking the beef from those cattle. In order to do that in an enforceable manner, you have to have an enforceable traceback system or there is no proof. That is exactly why you have "CAN-MEX-USA" labels on beef today. You didn't want traceback yet you wanted proof so there you go. "CAN-MEX-USA", thanks to you and yours.

You are such a hypocrite Sandhusker. On one hand you don't trust the packers and you insist on proving where an animal was "BORN" in order to label the beef from that animal to it's country of origin. On the other hand you will trust the packers to label beef accurately without an enforceable traceback system.

If you don't have an enforceable traceback system, any country of origin beef label can be placed on any beef. If you knew anything about beef fabrication and sales, you would realize how ridiculous your overly simplistic branding solution really is. As if a "C" or "M" brand isn't registered in any state. Don't you ever stop and think?

Unfortunately, you and others who buy into your over simplistic solutions are not responsible for enforcing your flawed law.


Tex: "So, SH, are the cattle coming across the border clandestinely with the illegal immigrants? Perhaps the illegal immigrants are riding them over!

Something Sandhusker said about clowns comes to mind when I see your post, SH. Perhaps I should remember that advice that was given."
Click to expand...

If you have something to say Tex, say it. Discrediting diversion tactics only prove that you can't back your position with a valid argument.


~SH~
 
If shipments of cattle can not be tracked and traced coming across the border, SH, how do you ever suppose there will be any validity in any documentation of animals at all?

I don't think there will be a valid trace back system if cattle coming across the border in a trailer can not be traced.

It is simply incredulous that you think so.

This is an attempt of meat packers trying to force some kind of documentation system burden on everyone because they don't want to be forced to trace back livestock themselves.

All you have to do to make any cattle that do come across the border, even to be fed out, is to absolutely be traced is to make the economic consequences greater than the benefits. It really isn't that hard. A huge fine equal to 1/10 of the price of the animal plus legal and court costs and jail for repeat offenders even if a corporation was involved would do it. It would make it unprofitable to do so unless you want to take the risk and truly see if our enforcement mechanisms really work. Of course it is becoming common knowledge that enforcement of our laws is quite comical unless you happen to be a poor person. Yes, a few exceptions here and there, but they are for show only.

A penalty like the SEC gave to Tyson on their bribing of Mexican officials is not what I am talking about. That is just an issuing of a hall pass to breaking the law.

Go read the article I posted from Rolling Stones. Why wasn't an article like it in TIME, the Wall Street Journal, or any of the ones owned by billionaires? That question is rhetorical for all but the very slowest (no disrespect for those who are really that naive).

Tex


~SH~ said:
Sandhusker: "If one can know the country of origin of any animal in the packer's lot, why do you need any system that goes back any further than that? YOU DON'T!"
Click to expand...

Because you are not tracking cattle to their country of origin, you are tracking the beef from those cattle. In order to do that in an enforceable manner, you have to have an enforceable traceback system or there is no proof. That is exactly why you have "CAN-MEX-USA" labels on beef today. You didn't want traceback yet you wanted proof so there you go. "CAN-MEX-USA", thanks to you and yours.

You are such a hypocrite Sandhusker. On one hand you don't trust the packers and you insist on proving where an animal was "BORN" in order to label the beef from that animal to it's country of origin. On the other hand you will trust the packers to label beef accurately without an enforceable traceback system.

If you don't have an enforceable traceback system, any country of origin beef label can be placed on any beef. If you knew anything about beef fabrication and sales, you would realize how ridiculous your overly simplistic branding solution really is. As if a "C" or "M" brand isn't registered in any state. Don't you ever stop and think?

Unfortunately, you and others who buy into your over simplistic solutions are not responsible for enforcing your flawed law.


Tex: "So, SH, are the cattle coming across the border clandestinely with the illegal immigrants? Perhaps the illegal immigrants are riding them over!

Something Sandhusker said about clowns comes to mind when I see your post, SH. Perhaps I should remember that advice that was given."
Click to expand...

If you have something to say Tex, say it. Discrediting diversion tactics only prove that you can't back your position with a valid argument.


~SH~
Click to expand...
 
Econ 101 (Tex),

COUNTRY OF ORIGIN LABELING IS ABOUT TRACKING BEEF, NOT JUST TRACKING CATTLE!!!!

What part of that can't you understand Econ 101???

This is not about tracking cattle only, this is about tracking the beef from those cattle in an enforceable manner. You cannot accomplish that without a valid enforceable traceback system on all cattle so that the beef from those cattle can be tracked accordingly.

USDA is the enforcement agency responsible for enforcing this stupid law, not you or your fellow packer blamers.

Even if you could track the beef in an enforceable manner, it's still a stupid law due to the amount of foreign beef that would be differentiated from US beef.


~SH~
 
SH, "On the other hand you will trust the packers to label beef accurately without an enforceable traceback system. "

I didn't even come close to saying that. All I said that is that you don't need a system to track to the pasture when all the information that you need is farther down stream at the packer's lot.

You know, SH, when you have to twist words, act stupid, and put words in other's mouths to back your position, you really need to reexamine your position.
 
Sandhusker: "I didn't even come close to saying that. All I said that is that you don't need a system to track to the pasture when all the information that you need is farther down stream at the packer's lot."
Click to expand...

You didn't have to say that. You support "M"COOL. You supported the law proving where an animal was "BORN, RAISED, AND PROCESSED" before receiving the "US BEEF" label. You also blamed USDA when they said they couldn't prove where a particular package of beef was "BORN" without a valid traceback system. You didn't want a valid traceback system. You are to blame for this "CAN-MEX-USA" beef labeling mess, nobody else.

Now if there is any part of the above statement referring to your position that is untrue, then please correct me and I'll be glad to watch you paint yourself into another corner.

Lets say I have a packing plant and I slaughter cattle from Canada and the US. I have two packages of beef in front of me. One I know is from Canadian cattle the other is from US cattle. I switch the labels. How can you prove the correct origination without a valid ENFORCEABLE traceback system both entering and leaving the plant?

You don't want to believe USDA on the validity of your oversimplistic "M" brand and "C" brand arguments so let's hear your solution for tracking the beef from those cattle in an enforceable manner. You've been too comfortable on your throne of USDA judgement for far too long. Considering your distrust for the packing industry (don't try to claim a different position now), tell the world how you would enforce your flawed Country of Origin law without tracking all the cattle into the plant with all the beef leaving the plant in order to differentiate 5% of the beef (foreign beef) at the retail level that will outsell US beef due to it's novelty status. Come on Sandhusker, step up to the plate and take a position for once.

Are you trying to suggest that you trust the packers to label beef correctly without an enforceable traceback system?? You know, the same packers you claim are manipulating the markets??

Yes Sandhusker, you have painted yourself into another corner. You either trust them or you don't.


~SH~
 
Why do I need to keep repeating myself, SH?

Lets try another angle; Using existing laws, why does one need any information not available at the packer's lot to support a country of origin label?

Would we need a system to keep the packers honest? Probably. Does it have to be intricate and expensive? Definitely not.
 
Sandhusker: "Lets try another angle; Using existing laws, why does one need any information not available at the packer's lot to support a country of origin label?"
Click to expand...

Why do I need to keep repeating myself? We are not talking about tracking cattle, we are talking about tracking beef.

The information that exists at the packer's lot is insufficient to enforce this law because a brand on the hide does not prove where an animal was born without a valid traceback system. You can check every brand book from a state with brand inspection and you are going to find both "M" and "C" brands for domestic cattle making your over simplistic solution worthless.


Sandhusker: "Would we need a system to keep the packers honest? Probably."
Click to expand...

I'll take that as an admission that this law has to be enforceable to prove ownership. Why don't you do some research for once instead of just clinging to WHAT YOU WANT TO BELIEVE?

Ask USDA what it would take to prove where an animal was born in an enforceable manner.

Once again, you are wrong.


~SH~
 
SH, "...can check every brand book from a state with brand inspection and you are going to find both "M" and "C" brands for domestic cattle making your over simplistic solution worthless. "

You don't know where that "M" is located, do you? It's not a "C", it's a "CAN".

SH, "We are not talking about tracking cattle, we are talking about tracking beef"

EXACTLY! Which is why no tracking system has to go upstream of the packer. Now you're argueing MY points! :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
Sandhusker said:
SH, "...can check every brand book from a state with brand inspection and you are going to find both "M" and "C" brands for domestic cattle making your over simplistic solution worthless. "

You don't know where that "M" is located, do you? It's not a "C", it's a "CAN".

SH, "We are not talking about tracking cattle, we are talking about tracking beef"

EXACTLY! Which is why no tracking system has to go upstream of the packer. Now you're argueing MY points! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...

Yes, this is another one of those deals where meat packers don't want to label properly so they try to say that everyone but them has to change.

Their beef and meat needs to be labeled. In addition, the code for plant that it was produced in needs to be in larger print. It needs to be in print large enough so that you don't have to pull out a pair of glasses or magnifier to read. The print needs to be no less than 12 point on their package. When they do the shrink on their bags it gets distorted and you can't read some of them. The USDA needs to have the database for the plant code on the net so one can easily look it up or better yet, they need to require any firm selling the product to have the product code look up available for the customer at the point of sale if it is in code form. They could get around this by printing the processing plant's label clearly on the label.

Of course the whole reason this needs to be done is that the retailer wants the cheapest product with little to no traceback so they can source it from the cheapest source and hide that information from the customer.

Yes, I agree, sh, that this is a traceback problem for BEEF, not cattle. If the meat packers can not sort out between Canadian or JBS SA meat then they don't need to be in the processing business. It is real similar to the companies who sell lead in the cheapest jewelry from the world-cheap because it is made with lead-,markets or illegal domestic pesticides in foreign fruits and vegetables that are sold in the U.S. or fake protein poison.

If meat packers can't do this, they need to shut down and let someone who can produce these products who are proud of what they do, not scared to let anyone know it. They act like it is their right to sell products that are disingenuous to the consumer just because it has a higher margin for them. Greed.

Tex
 
Sandhusker: "You don't know where that "M" is located, do you?"
Click to expand...

Neither do you and it doesn't matter anyway.

A brand on the hide does not track the beef from that animal to it's place of birth or prove where it was raised which is the proof you insisted on having.


Sandhusker: "EXACTLY! Which is why no tracking system has to go upstream of the packer. Now you're argueing MY points."
Click to expand...

Your point is that in order to prove where an animal was "BORN", which is the proof you insisted on having, you only have to track from the packing plant in an enforceable manner.

You seem to forget that you insisted on proving where an animal was "BORN, RAISED, and PROCESSED" which requires tracking those animals that go back and forth across the border. Some animals are born in the US, raised in Canada and processed in the US. Some animals are born in Canada, raised in the US, and processed in Canada. Now anyone with any common sense, which doesn't include you, would realize that requires a pretty elaborate tracking system each time that animal crosses the border.

Unfortunately, those who insist on these and other "please government, save us from ourselves" laws are never responsible for enforcing them.


~SH~
 
SH, "Neither do you and it doesn't matter anyway. "

I know exactly where it is located, SH.

It doesn't matter? :lol: :lol: It matters a great deal, SH, because it shoots down you "brand book" arguement. Here you are argueing how what I'm advocating won't work and you don't know half the story. Why am I not surprised?
 
Your entire argument is worthless Sandhusker because we are not tracking cattle, we are tracking beef. Humoring you with arguments about the location of the brand is irrelevant to tracking beef in an enforceale manner.

A brand, regardless where it is located, is irrelevant to tracking where an animal was "BORN, RAISED, AND SLAUGHTERED" to where the beef from that animal is shipped with an enforceable tracking system.

Why didn't you address the issue of cattle that move back and forth across the border, huh? Because you don't have a clue how this industry really operates. R-CALF says something and you repeat it like the lemming you are.

As always, you are clinging to blue sky arguments without substance because you think they sound reasonable.


~SH~
 
I know you won't answer this question because it will shatter your empty branding argument but I'll make my point regardless.

Lets say I own a packing plant that slauthters 5% Canadian and 5% Mexican cattle that were "BORN AND RAISED" in those countries. The Canadian cattle and Mexican cattle are branded with "CAN" and "MEX" in the location of your preference to humor you with your empty argument.

On any given day, a USDA inspector in charge of enforcing your stupid law, steps into the plant. In the shipping area there is boxes of Candadian beef, Mexican beef, and US Beef.

Now tell me how you are going to prove that the US BEEF is really from animals that were born, raised, and processed in the United States?

How can you prove that I didn't just switch the labels so that I could sell more "SOURCE VERIFIED MAPLE LEAF BEEF"??

Hmmm??

Watch the diversion folks..........


~SH~
 
~SH~ said:
I know you won't answer this question because it will shatter your empty branding argument but I'll make my point regardless.

Lets say I own a packing plant that slauthters 5% Canadian and 5% Mexican cattle that were "BORN AND RAISED" in those countries. The Canadian cattle and Mexican cattle are branded with "CAN" and "MEX" in the location of your preference to humor you with your empty argument.

On any given day, a USDA inspector in charge of enforcing your stupid law, steps into the plant. In the shipping area there is boxes of Candadian beef, Mexican beef, and US Beef.

Now tell me how you are going to prove that the US BEEF is really from animals that were born, raised, and processed in the United States?

How can you prove that I didn't just switch the labels so that I could sell more "SOURCE VERIFIED MAPLE LEAF BEEF"??

Hmmm??

Watch the diversion folks..........


~SH~
Click to expand...

"Now tell me how you are going to prove that the US BEEF is really from animals that were born, raised, and processed in the United States? "

You are right about this, sh, and it has been done time and time again. This was THE REASON MCOOL was enacted. Meatpackers were not keeping track of foreign meat and passing that information to U.S. consumers. Meat packers didn't want to. They were getting cheap Canadian beef because of the BSE scare and selling it in the U.S. as though it wasn't Canadian beef. Meat packers are so heavily regulated because they will make a dime any way they can with which to compete out others in the market place. I say stop with all the regulations and make them pay the economic costs they make others pay and all this kind of stuff would simply not exist. Instead, we make another regulation. It is a really bad way of handling things and inefficient as heck. It is crony capitalism at its best.



Tex
 

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