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NEED DOG TRAINING TIPS

C

CARSON

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Joined
Feb 21, 2007
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4
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EASTERN ALBERTA
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I HAVE GOT A BLUE HEELER BC CROSS YEAR AND A HLF OLD. I AM TRAINING ON 3 500LB STEER CALVES. THIS IS MY FIRST DOG I HAVE TRIED TO TRAIN. HE SEEMS TO BE A WEEK DOG BALES IN AND NIPS AT THERE HEELS AND CHASES ALL OVER HELL AND I CAN'T GET HIS POINT OF BALANCE. I KEEP LAYING HIM DOWN WHEN HE IS AT IS POINT OF BALANCE BUT WHEN I TELL HIM TO WALK UP HE BALES RIGHT BACK IN HARD, NIPS, GETS KICKED AND FALLS WAY OUT AND I REALLY HAVE TO ENCOURAGE HIM TO GET BACK IN BUT WHEN HE DOES HE GOES IN HARD STARTS TO NIP HEELS OR HEAD WHAT EVER IS THE EASIEST AND HE WILL DRIVE THE CATTLE WHICH EVER WAY THE CATTLE WANT TO RUN THEN BLASTS BY AND GOES FOR THE HEAD AND VICE VERSA HE HAS GOT A GOOD LAY DOWN AND THAT'L DO BUT THAT IS ALL THE CONTROL I HAVE. IT REALLY SEEMS LIKE HE HAS NO EYE.[/b]
 
drop him off at my place I'll get em working right. Sounds to me like you need to work more on controling him before adding the cows. get him doing the moves you'll want him to do without a cow. Any dog I have taught to herd will move in fast,move in slowly(creep),stop,lay down, crawl,speak/bark when told to/shut up when told to,back off fast,back off slowly, and last but not least hold. Once you have him doing the moves then add a cow and teach him the same moves using the cow. You need him to respect you and do as he is being told to. I guess my thinking is if the dog can do the moves without a cow then doing them with is just a matter of keeping him listening to me. Once a dog learns what his job is you can mostly drop all but a few of the commands. It is nice tho to work a dog who you can tell exactly what you want it to do, and it also helps when herding things that are more flightly.
 
If you think he is weak, that is probably why he is diving in and taking cheap shots. And if he weakens after he gets kicked, he'll lose any ambition to work.

You need to set him up for success every time you work him. If he loses all the time, he will quit all together.

My suggestion at this point would be to put him on a long lead. That way you can control him. If he is doing the opposite of what you tell him, the commands aren't working.

Put him on the lead, take him to the calves, in a smaller pen. First down him. Then walk the direction you want to go, ex. start walking right with the dog to your right and the calves to the left, so you are between the dog and the cattle. Make the dog stay to your right, he can be 5 to 10 ft away from you, but dont let him get past you to the calves. Don't use commands at all except down or stop. Circle the cavles several times and then reverse your walk to the left around the calves. Do this a couple times, down the dog facing the cattle and quit. Do this for about 5 to 10 minutes. Work on just this for 4 to 5 short training sessions. Make the dog realize he can work the calves without charging them.

Once you get a better handle on him, say the commands as you circle to the left and right. Don't get in a hurry. This dog sounds like it needs a bit of time working on his manners around cattle and this will be the best thing for him.

You can't expect the dog to work like you want it to without putting some time in on it. Take your time, don't get angry at the dog. Using the line will help get some good controll on your dog.
 
Chickshunt2 said:
drop him off at my place I'll get em working right. Sounds to me like you need to work more on controling him before adding the cows. get him doing the moves you'll want him to do without a cow. Any dog I have taught to herd will move in fast,move in slowly(creep),stop,lay down, crawl,speak/bark when told to/shut up when told to,back off fast,back off slowly, and last but not least hold. Once you have him doing the moves then add a cow and teach him the same moves using the cow. You need him to respect you and do as he is being told to. I guess my thinking is if the dog can do the moves without a cow then doing them with is just a matter of keeping him listening to me. Once a dog learns what his job is you can mostly drop all but a few of the commands. It is nice tho to work a dog who you can tell exactly what you want it to do, and it also helps when herding things that are more flightly.
Click to expand...

Do you train any outside dogs? If so what kind of time frame are we looking at to accomplish the above? The dog I have in mind is 14-15 mos. old Border Collie.
 
hello
to begin i'm not a fan of driving dogs i know thay have a place but it's not with me i can do a fine job of running stock off
if i had this dog and i was in love with him i would try this
i would get him in a small round pen he could not get out of and get some small stock goats sheep somthing small he will not be intimidated by
if i had a good down on him i would not use a cord but if i thought i would have trouble stopping him i would leave a cord on him
so take him in the pen with a stick or somthing to block him with not beat him with i like a bigg plastic leaf rake as i can turn it sideways and stop the dog with it without hurting him or scaring him
when i go in the pen i hold the dog and get him to relax and look at the stock then just swoosh him off and when he wanted to circle or come between me and the stock just block him and give him the associated cammand right or left whatever you use if he quits you and does not want to work at this point i think i would look for another dog but if he still wants to fly around just keep working him and when you see him drop his tail below his back and relax while working and bringing the stock to you call him off and praise him get him a drink and put him up where he can't get in trouble if this works stay on the small stock until he gets his cofidence up and then repeat the prosses on cattle
i hope this helps this is how i start most of our pups and it works well for me
and if your not in love with this dog and you want a hearding dog get rid of him and get a hearding bred dog
you can teach a hearding dog to drive a whole lot easier than you can teach a driving dog to heard
until later
jerry
 
Another good aspect of training Jerry. Thank you. A driving dog is something you can teach later.

"Shepherd" type dogs, kelpies, BC's, Aussie's; were bred to bring the cattle to the handler. It's instinct that is hard to hate. Everyone using dogs wants the dog to "bring" the livestock to them. There is alot less stress to both the livestock and handler.

Driving stock should be done by the handler, who can command the dog if needed.

If you work enough dogs and cattle, you will realize that a gather is the best asset a dog bring to the scenario. They can save alot of time.

I hate to say it since my dad and uncle used to breed ACD's, but the best scenario for them is in a saleyard. "most" breeders have bred the work out of them up north here. I love the heck out of my BC's, but Kelpies, and crosses are the best "I" dogs I have seen work. As long as the dog works, and can handle the hardships that pairs put on them, I dont really care what it is. Like LR Alexander says"Lifes to short to work a weak dog". But he also said"If you dont have the time to work a dog every week, you have no right working a dog".
 
i'm in total agreement about folks breeding the work out of acd's
a fella i know in colorado has great kelpie and some ausralian collies that are good also
but he has some acd's that will break and go around cattle also
i had never seen it done so i got him to show me and i was impressed
i put alot of stock in what LR has to say i spent some time around him a few years ago and i still use that saying often that life too short to work weak dogs
i got to see griz and jill work at a trial oklahoma and if more bc's were like them and had short hair i would have them along with my kelpies
a friend of mine in oklahoma is breeding them and he keeps trying to talk me into them but i have all the dogs i work now
by the way if you ever need a real good bc call ben means he's got some great ones
until later
jerry
 
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR ALL THE INFO AND TIPS. I DECIDED ABOUT A WEEK AGO THAT THIS DOG DOES NOT FIT WITH MY PROGRAM AND I ALREADY HAVE A BC KELPIE CROSS PUP COMING FROM A GOOD FRIEND OF MINE THAT RUNS ABOUT 1000 HEAD OF SHEEP. HE HAS HELPED WORK MY DOG AND GET HIM SOME WHAT STARTED.I THINK THAT IS WHY HE IS GIVING ME THIS NEW PUP. BUT I THAUGHT SINCE I NEED TO LEARN JUST AS MUCH AS ANY PUP DOES I MIGHT AS WELL DO MY BEST WITH WHAT I GOT FOR NOW AND TRY AND GET SOME TRIAL AND ERROR UNDER MY BELT FOR THE NEXT ONE. I KNOW FOR THIS NEXT ONE I AM GETTING A HAND FULL OF SHEEP TO START OUT WITH AND BUILD A LITTLE BETTER PEN TO WORK IN.BUT I THAUGHT I WOULD GET THIS DOG GOING AS GOOD AS I CAN THEN GIVE IT AWAY TO SOME SOD BUSTER OR SOMEONE WHO JUST WANTS A DOG.IT JUST SEEMS HE WANTS TO BE MORE OF A PET THAN A WORKER. BUT I CAN'T TOTALLY BLAME THE DOG AS I KNOW IT IS PROBABLY MOST OF THE TRAINERS FAULT (ME). BUT THAT IS LEARNING. THANKS AGAIN GUYS AND I WILL TRY SOME MORE OF WHAT YOU TOLD ME.
LATER
 
Jerry H said:
hello
to begin i'm not a fan of driving dogs
i would try this i would get him in a small round pen he could not get out of and get some small stock goats sheep somthing small he will not be intimidated by. if i had a good down on him i would not use a cord but if i thought i would have trouble stopping him i would leave a cord on him
so take him in the pen with a stick or somthing to block him with not beat him with i like a big plastic leaf rake as i can turn it sideways and stop the dog with it without hurting him or scaring him
when i go in the pen i hold the dog and get him to relax and look at the stock then just swoosh him off and when he wanted to circle or come between me and the stock just block him and give him the associated cammand right or left whatever you use if he quits you and does not want to work at this point i think i would look for another dog but if he still wants to fly around just keep working him and when you see him drop his tail below his back and relax while working and bringing the stock to you call him off and praise him get him a drink and put him up where he can't get in trouble if this works stay on the small stock until he gets his cofidence up and then repeat the prosses on cattle

i hope this helps this is how i start most of our pups and it works well for me and if your not in love with this dog and you want a hearding dog get rid of him and get a hearding bred dog you can teach a hearding dog to drive a whole lot easier than you can teach a driving dog to heard
until later
jerry
Click to expand...

Jerry and I think along the same lines.

A 100' roll of Non-climb wire will make a nice 'Round Pen' - I incorporate some pannles/Pens at one one end to keep fresh stock in

Follow this link - it might help give you some ideas:

http://imageevent.com/v_key/trainingworkingdogs;jsessionid=n8ilmc88m2.tiger_s

P.S. Everyone has to train as they see it.

Use your head and Think

Lesson to everyone - If you don't learn something to do you will learn what NOT TO DO

There is NO One Way to train anything.

It's hard work but TRY to be smarter than the animal

"Down" is taught out side the ring

Always work an odd Number of animals (to Start)

Never use your dog on your horses - a good dog will not work horses - horse have little bone in their legs - and you don't need a dog to start your horse bucking
 
Yes I take in outside dogs for training. The time frame will depend on what this dog knows now, what you want the dog to be able to do( do you want it to work off hand signs-harder for the dog. Voice-easiest for the dog, or know voice but work mostly on their own? I tend to train them to the voice stage and most owners find that with time the dog and them learn each other and work as a team rather fast. how fast can I train a dog to do all this...depends on the dog picking things up....I work with any dog here for training everyday so most smart breeds pick things up fast. I also teach the dog to listen to someone who is mounted on horseback. I hate working a dog who forgets who you are the second you step up on a horse.
 
Sounds like you have it all figured out Chicks.

The only thing is that you can't teach a dog what it doesn't already know. A dog needs to be bred to work, not taught. There are too many dogs out there that a person thinks they can teach, it just never is worth the time. Most reputable breeders breed dogs to do specific tasks, example: BC's, Kelpies, Aussies, livestock workers. Poodles, show ring, Labs, retreive fowl. Not many Shitzus and Pomeraniens working livestock all day!?!

Most trainers will give a dog 2 to 4 weeks then give up because they realize the dog won't do what the owner wants. As a trainer you should have a set time and cost period. I don't train outside dogs for money, so I don't know for sure, but I wouldn't leave a dog at a place that isn't working, it's costing me alot of kennel time/money.

Most dogs can tell the difference between the handler and a horse, you shouldn't have to talk in a horse accent to make the dog mind when you are mounted.
 
first off I understand theres no point taking a mastiff and trying to teach it to herd.....the dog you start with needs to have it in them...but that goes for any dog doing any job. I have had MANY dogs that where bred for one thing but couldn't/wouldn't do that type of work so what?? Find a job for them, I have also had dogs that had no reason to excel at a job and could have beaten the pants off of any dog BRED to do that same job.( I have a pitbill who can hunt upland game and waterfowl like no bodys biz. I would love to show up with him at a field trial But I have not found an open breed trial in this area)Some of it is teaching some is woking off skills that are bred into the dog. I also do not train dogs for money and I never will then it would become a job and I would no long want to do it. I do it because I like to it's a hobby. I'm also well aware that there is no point working with a dog who just don't get it....I would guess I can have a smart dog who learns fast and has herding bred into them ,working well in about a month maybe 2. And I never said anything about talking to a dog in an accent???? I said I would make sure that the dog understands that just because I'm not on the ground working with it, it would still listen to me. This not only applies to horses, but to when I'm running the tractor,ect. I don't care where I am, what I'm doing, A dog should listen to me. About cost....umm food for the dog while it's here and it needs to be up to date in it's shots and be on monthly topical flea drops and heartworm meds in the summer months. I do not have kennels so the dogs stay in my house. (or on the inclosed porch)while they are here. I believe EVERY DOG should be house trained you never know when you'll need to bring this dog indoors. It could get sick,the weather could just turn nasty( this happens in the dakotas)you could need to take this dog while traveling...not hard to find a hotel to take the dog, but sure does make it nicer when you know the dog wont mess in the room. If when the owner gets their dog back they feel I should recieve some type of payment I tell them to pick a price. To me it's gift enough to see someone working thier dog and just going WOW this dog rocks. I'm not sure why you seem to need to bash the way I train dogs. Until you see one of my dogs work why not just ask ?'s before bashing someone?
 
Sure about that BMR? I know Rotties were suppossedly used for that but I thought BullMastiffs were a cross of old English bulldogs and English Mastiffs and were used as gamekeeper dogs on the big estates...
 
Big Muddy is correct in his doggie history. Bull Mastiffs were used as drovers. Hence the Bull part LOL. Rotts were also cattle drovers and carried the butchers money home after market. I can't see the rotties of today being much help in that department. Dogs that can't outrun a fat man arent great guardians. The rotties on the Schutzhund feild are not really all that competative. Ya get a good shepherd or a melon ball in there and WHACK. Nice full deep mouth bits. My puppy sleeve was peel off my arm and split right down the seem by a malagator. I love those dogs, but I am WAY to lazy to ever own one :)
 
Judith.. read this link, this is the history I learned about the breed when we were looking at them... We thinking about the same breed?

http://www.bullmastiffinfo.org/thebmf.htm
 
yes mastiffs were used to move herds longggggg ago but todays dog is much diff. it has had most of that drive bred out of it. I was also thinking english mastiff not bull but either way both have come to the same fate of being rebred to do a new job. As I said any job you want a dog to do just depends on that dog.......It is easier to breed the working out of a dog than it is to add it at least IMO. I do love the breed tho.....they are truly 150 lbs of gentle giant. I would have one in a min. if I could get past the drool.
 

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